Notice of Cancellation

[Trinite]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='24 February 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1267052659' post='2202141']
I am just that crazy I guess.

Regardless, continuing to discuss it will not change the situation. Fark has stated that it has no plans to offer what we seek and we have stated that we will not accept what they have offered. End of story unless one side changes their mind. For me, that is impossible. Not because I emphatically disagree with the terms or because I am just being a prick, which I am, but because I have given my word that it will not be so to my members. Nothing will change that so far as I am concerned. Not pissed off Polars, not unhappy Farkers, nothing. It is a matter of resolve and yes, personal pride, in regards to honoring my word to my membership.

If my alliance decides that they wish to change their opinion on the issue then that is up to them.
[/quote]
I was actually referring to your kind of white peace. You still might be crazy, but not that crazy.

[Epiphanus]

[quote name='Lennox' date='24 February 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1267047372' post='2202014']
And as we have said over and over, we will not surrender.
[/quote]
Funny because Ivan was baawing earlier about being the only alliance to not have been offered white peace. Did you want to have it offered only for the chance to refuse it? That's pretty shoddy alliance leadership IMO.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Epiphanus' date='24 February 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1267054397' post='2202174']
Funny because Ivan was baawing earlier about being the only alliance to not have been offered white peace. Did you want to have it offered only for the chance to refuse it? That's pretty shoddy alliance leadership IMO.
[/quote]
Does this make sense to anyone else? Because it sure as hell doesn't to me.

How does my seeking of an equitable clear peace with no terms equate at all with me rejecting said peace when it has never been offered?

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Trinite' date='24 February 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1267054051' post='2202169']
I was actually referring to your kind of white peace. You still might be crazy, but not that crazy.
[/quote]

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81572&view=findpost&p=2201223"]Relevant[/url]

STA got white peace from Fark. If it's good enough for STA, it's good enough for us.

Edited February 24, 2010 by kevin32891

[Heft]

Fark leadership has consistently been difficult and obnoxious to try and work with. They can demand whatever they want, but we can refuse it, and we don't exactly have any incentive to cooperate with them or accede to their demands, whatever those may be.

We've lost 70% of our strength, what are they going to do?

The NSO deserves white peace, and we aren't in the practice of submitting to things we don't agree with and don't deserve.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Epiphanus' date='24 February 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1267054397' post='2202174']
Funny because Ivan was baawing earlier about being the only alliance to not have been offered white peace. Did you want to have it offered only for the chance to refuse it? That's pretty shoddy alliance leadership IMO.
[/quote]
Doing a beer review and white peace are two different things. Try harder next time.

[commander thrawn]

Teeheehee,

good luck getting white peace though NSO, also for shame polar.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='24 February 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1267054614' post='2202182']
it's good enough for us.
[/quote]
Of course, the way you carry yourselves in public venues (see: the OP of this very topic) might have something to do with your diplomatic efforts.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='24 February 2010 - 06:56 PM' timestamp='1267056009' post='2202209']
Of course, the way you carry yourselves in public venues (see: the OP of this very topic) might have something to do with your diplomatic efforts.
[/quote]
Please, your alliance is the only reason we are in this war. Go somewhere else and talk about diplomactic ability.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='24 February 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1267056064' post='2202211']
Please, your alliance is the only reason we are in this war. Go somewhere else and talk about diplomactic ability.
[/quote]
A member saying something not condoned + NpO Emperor flipping his wig = \m/'s fault, gotcha

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Rey the Great' date='24 February 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1267056244' post='2202217']
A member saying something not condoned + NpO Emperor flipping his wig = \m/'s fault, gotcha
[/quote]
It was an observation that if your "diplomatic skills" were up to the task that such things wouldn't have been said to someone like the Polar Emperor in the first place and the declaration would likely have been avoided.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='24 February 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1267048255' post='2202040']
An admission of defeat, at least to me, is not the same as surrender. A defeated army can still fight, albeit poorly. The NSO has been thoroughly defeated in this conflict. It is impossible to claim otherwise when facing 12 to 1 odds. It simply is. That isn't the same thing as accepting terms that are different from what I was initially told would be available to me though and it isn't the same as just giving up and surrendering.

If we are destined to be in perpetual war, then we will simply be ankle biters indefinitely, or until I am couped.
[/quote]

NSO's opponents should read this post. I agree with where Ivan is coming from on this issue. If you are so hung up on the word surrender you need to examine why you are keeping NSO in the war to begin with.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='heggo' date='24 February 2010 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1267052893' post='2202149']
Arcturus, you and I both know that negotiations don't occur in a vacuum. Maybe they didn't care, but even so you still can't simplify the situation down to "silly NSO didn't accept Fark's terms" given that their offer was being constructed in a context that it was an offer which we functionally had to refuse. Whether that context arose intentionally or by chance is, I suppose, not especially important.
[/quote]
So if you couldn't accept [i]any[/i] peace because it would betray IRON, why complain that Fark isn't offering white peace?

[quote]And yet obstructionism is still obstructionism, especially when it is coupled with base taunts and insults.[/quote]
The obstructionism is hardly a one-way street, and your form of government dictates that the final word comes from on high - why deal with the pawns when they don't have any authority?

[quote name='kevin32891']STA got white peace from Fark. If it's good enough for STA, it's good enough for us.[/quote]
For one thing, Fark only ghost-declared on STA (which was pretty lame in my book; if whoever got ghosted in didn't have the stones to straight up declare on STA they should stay home). I don't know if there was any combat on that front but I believe it was minimal. Secondly, the STA is conspicuously not the NSO both in demeanor and action. For instance, STA leadership hasn't been monkeying around with peace negotiations and attempts to smear Fark on the OWF.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='24 February 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1267054614' post='2202182']
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=81572&view=findpost&p=2201223"]Relevant[/url]

STA got white peace from Fark. If it's good enough for STA, it's good enough for us.
[/quote]

Fark wasn't actually fighting any wars against STA.

Not to mention the fact that STA was not defeated. There was white peace on that front because there was no clear winner, and we all agreed to simply part ways. That is not the case on the NSO front; you have been soundly defeated and as such it is quite reasonable to expect a surrender.

edit: It would seem my mighty [i]handsome[/i] defender has spoken for me once again.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='AirMe' date='24 February 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1267035116' post='2201715']
I personally request you stop using that image.

I should also note that the situations are not the same...in the least. And your use of LUE 2.0 propaganda is o so clever. You disgust me, which is sad because I was probably one of the last people on this planet to respect you.
[/quote]

I believe fair use comes into play with that image. So, yeah.

Deal with it, brother man.

[Fernando12]

Stubbornness, miscalculations, miscommunications, mis-fill in the ______________

Everyone should be realizing this war is a stinkin mess. Canceling treaties like this one between 2 alliances that have a strong bond is not a good move. And, I do concede that Polaris has made some moves that have resulted in this.

But, I wish the strength of your friendship would prevail.

I wish you guys would understand each other better.

NSO, I admire your principles but they are not going to save IRON from their fate. Is IRON doing anything to help you guys get out of this war? Polaris did by getting back in, but it didn't work for whatever reasons. IRON strategically or whatever declared a pre-emptive war and you are all suffering for it. Polaris leaving has nothing to do with you not getting peace. Your support of IRON is what is stopping you from getting peace.

Ivan, you said it yourself in this thread that NSO would not be able to re-enter. So why not take peace with no reps but terms that state you will not re-enter since you said you can't anyway and write up a simple beer review?

I have great respect for you guys NSO, but canceling this treaty is a result of your stubbornness.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Fernando12

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='24 February 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1267056556' post='2202229']
edit: It would seem my mighty defender has spoken for me once again.
[/quote]
That's "handsome". Mighty, [i]handsome[/i] defender.

[Crowdog07]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='24 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1267052659' post='2202141']
I am just that crazy I guess.

Regardless, continuing to discuss it will not change the situation. Fark has stated that it has no plans to offer what we seek and we have stated that we will not accept what they have offered. End of story unless one side changes their mind. For me, that is impossible. Not because I emphatically disagree with the terms or because I am just being a prick, which I am, but because I have given my word that it will not be so to my members. Nothing will change that so far as I am concerned. Not pissed off Polars, not unhappy Farkers, nothing. It is a matter of resolve and yes, personal pride, in regards to honoring my word to my membership.

If my alliance decides that they wish to change their opinion on the issue then that is up to them.
[/quote]


Well I think at this point it might be best to think about your members. Do their thoughts echo along the lines of "we'd rather be in war forever with an emperor who cares so highly about his appearance" or "we'd be willing to compromise, things change and it's impossible for us to get what we thought was once possible."

From a people management standpoint it seems you care more about your image and not lying to your members than you do about the members themselves.



[quote name='Heft' date='24 February 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1267054659' post='2202184']
Fark leadership has consistently been difficult and obnoxious to try and work with. They can demand whatever they want, but we can refuse it, and we don't exactly have any incentive to cooperate with them or accede to their demands, whatever those may be.

We've lost 70% of our strength, what are they going to do?

The NSO deserves white peace, and we aren't in the practice of submitting to things we don't agree with and don't deserve.
[/quote]


[quote name='kevin32891' date='24 February 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1267054706' post='2202187']
Doing a beer review and white peace are two different things. Try harder next time.
[/quote]


You've already admitted to losing the war. People will see your exit from the war as a loss regardless if you leave through white peace or through surrender. The only people that would see other than that are yourselves and given you've already admitted defeat the only remaining assumption to make is that you're delusional.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Crowdog

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='24 February 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1267056543' post='2202228']
For one thing, Fark only ghost-declared on STA (which was pretty lame in my book; if whoever got ghosted in didn't have the stones to straight up declare on STA they should stay home). I don't know if there was any combat on that front but I believe it was minimal. Secondly, the NSO is conspicuously not the NSO both in demeanor and action. For instance, STA leadership hasn't been monkeying around with peace negotiations and attempts to smear Fark on the OWF.
[/quote]
The NSO has not monkeyed around with peace negotiations at all. What Randomly Jim failed to mention is that when I did talk to him directly to seek to re-address the terms he informed me that it was not an option and that I had until update that night to post our surrender to Fark or the terms were off the table. He unilaterally changed the terms from what could have been a mutual peace into a surrender.

He is within his rights to do so just as I am within my rights to reject them.

In the future I assume that every alliance will automatically accept whatever terms are presented to them without question, right? It seems that a lot of people seem to think that is what I should have done.

[Anthony]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='25 February 2010 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1267056556' post='2202229']
Fark wasn't actually fighting any wars against STA.

Not to mention the fact that STA was not defeated. There was white peace on that front because there was no clear winner, and we all agreed to simply part ways. That is not the case on the NSO front; you have been soundly defeated and as such it is quite reasonable to expect a surrender.

edit: It would seem my mighty defender has spoken for me once again.
[/quote]

But we weren't entirely beat down at that point either.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='24 February 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1267056305' post='2202220']
It was an observation that if your "diplomatic skills" were up to the task that such things wouldn't have been said to someone like the Polar Emperor in the first place and the declaration would likely have been avoided.
[/quote]
Have you even been informed of how this war started?

If not, I guess this announcement makes sense.

[Jim Bob the Glorious]

[quote name='heggo' date='24 February 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1267049286' post='2202080']
It is worth noting that even when Fark offered us beer reviews and no re-entry as terms, they did not do so in good faith. Consider that in our initial negotiations they offered us these terms only to promptly declare war on our ally IRON. Their goal wasn't to give us peace, but rather to either force us to violate our treaty with IRON or stall us until our treaty obligations would force us back into the war for a time. It is also worth noting that, during later negotiations, randomly (and some others, if I recall correctly) steadfastly refused to discuss peace with Sith government (Darth Council) members other than Ivan, a refusal which was emblematic of their attempts to create various arbitrary sticking points (like beer reviews) to keep us in the war, rather than to negotiate with any intentions to give us real peace.So all and all, even if you think we were unreasonable in refusing to surrender to them on their beer review and related terms, you should recognize that our problems with Fark during peace negotiations went beyond just that.
[/quote]

While I can appreciate your need to lie in order to build sympathy since the truth provides you none, try to pick something that isnt so easily counter.

Fark declared on IRON at 11:40pm on Jan 28th. Polar and \m/ announced peace at 11:30pm. The server crashed.

We were already at war with Iron before NSO ever even came to us for peace.


As for not speaking with other Dark Council, I can say I agree with Ivan on the topic.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='24 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1267049064' post='2202068']
Ah, my apologies. When I say Polar I mean Grub. The Emperor is the embodiment of the Order and I don't generally get my information from subordinates.
[/quote]

Why talk with others when the Emperor is around. Especially after he's declared himself the single true voice of NSO and specifically told this forum that all others are to be ignored.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Anthony' date='24 February 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1267056874' post='2202241']
But we weren't entirely beat down at that point either.
[/quote]
We try not to let facts get in the way of their talking points.

At the time we were fighting 10 to 1 odds and ultimately holding our own.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='24 February 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1267047313' post='2202012']
If you will really 'never surrender' then you are driving your own alliance into the ground, and I have more sympathy for Polar. You're doing the victim complex thing that TPF made their own in Karma, but it sounds like you're not doing it for anyone, you'll keep doing it forever. Staying in the war for IRON is admirable, although you're not really much help to them any more, but at some point, if you want to see infra in your future, you're going to have to surrender.
[/quote]

Pretty much this. NSO will have to surrender at the conclusion of this war and they're staying in for nothing they'll receive at the end.

[Anthony]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='25 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1267057170' post='2202255']
Pretty much this. NSO will have to surrender at the conclusion of this war and they're staying in for nothing they'll receive at the end.
[/quote]

Eh...no.