NATO/TFD/GUN/LSF/ADI/LSN Surrender

[Heft]

[quote name='Jocabia' date='20 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1266709443' post='2194243']
Yes, I have a lot of respect for you taking it to the people you're fighting.

I'm all for people taking a breather to put their military back together, get out of anarchy and select new targets. I did it. Anyone who can should. It helps with sustainability. However, beyond that, they're hiding in peace mode. I took on a nation bigger than me that killed my infra. I'm not ashamed to say he kicked me $@!. However, I was there to help wear him down and make the attacks of the other nations land better. It worked and we were effective. If you believe the greater good is doing as much damage as you can (and many of NSO has claimed that and one is doing so right now in the propaganda thread) then NSO is failing. If you believe the greater good is to get in the fight to pull as much of the attacks off of your allies as you can, then NSO is failing. If you believe the greater good is to preserve as much NS as you can, then NSO is succeeding. Is that what NSO is going for? Infra-hugging?
[/quote]
There are 373 wars involving the NSO. There are about 150 NSO nations.

So if your complaint is that we aren't fighting, then you're dumb, ignorant, or lying. If your complaint is we aren't leaving all of our nations constantly on the battlefield in a war that we've been constantly involved in for weeks and will continue to be involved in indefinitely, then you're just dumb.

Either way, you're not making sense.

For reference, CSN, despite having more nations overall (about 170) and more nations in war mode (132) only has 299 wars on its AA.

This is a really dumb argument and I would really hate to continue. I only post this to prevent people from taking you at your word and assuming you're correct.

[x Tela x]

[quote name='ChimpMasterFlash' date='20 February 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1266710452' post='2194267']
We have a fairly large waiting list of players ready to get into the game but didn't due to the war. This will be a nice gift to all the new SA_GOONS coming to the game in the coming months.[/quote]

Please, get all of the SA people to come back. Will be fun watching you guys self destruct again.

[lamuella]

x Tela x, we get it. You really don't like GOONS and you have nothing constructive to say about anything. Repeating this doesn't make it any more interesting.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

Nevermind, hangover = muddled posting.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[x Tela x]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='20 February 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1266712326' post='2194303']
No thanks then for bringing new people to Bob who are actually interested in being here? Ah well, the more things change, the more they stay the same I suppose
[/quote]

I'm all for increasing the active population of planet Bob, as long as it's with moderately productive members that contribute something, rather than those that simply contribute something awful.

I will say, that for the most part, the new goonies seems to be a lot different than the previous one, on the outside. The FoA issue, however, brings back flashes of the old version. The old version was beat down for a reason - a damn good one, too.

[lamuella]

the "damn good reason" was that NPO felt they were a threat, and that their support base collapsed after an OOC attack. Your righteous indignation had about as much to do with it as a spider's fart has to do with a hurricane.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='x Tela x' date='21 February 2010 - 10:36 AM' timestamp='1266712603' post='2194308']
I'm all for increasing the active population of planet Bob, as long as it's with moderately productive members that contribute something, rather than those that simply contribute something awful.

I will say, that for the most part, the new goonies seems to be a lot different than the previous one, on the outside. The FoA issue, however, brings back flashes of the old version. The old version was beat down for a reason - a damn good one, too.
[/quote]
Ah, yes, the Unjust War. Sure, we certainly deserved a beatdown, but not to be given the boot from Planet Bob. Two wrongs, and all that jazz...

Edited February 21, 2010 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[lamuella]

Umar, don't you see? Forcible disbandment at the behest of the group ruling the game is a [i]good thing[/i], providing it happens to [i]naughty boys[/i].

[Tulafaras]

Really guys in all honesty lay off NSO. They fought to the best of their ability against superior numbers. If the few unharmed (or moderatly harmed) nations they have left stay in peacemode i won't blame them. Anything else doesn't make much sense.
Personally the NSO members i've fought did their best and fought well for the most part some random moments as they happen in every war non-withstanding, even when they were rather clearly outmatched in strength.
Considering the amount of alliances still at war with NSO (and some other alliances usually) saying they should come out of peacemode and fight is idiotic at best. War rethoric or not, stick to something usefull to talk about.
@Heft: active wars? because the search does include a rather large percentage of inactive wars which haven't been deleted.

edit: searched for it, 141 active wars, still a decent number considering how long this war has been going on.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Tulafaras

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Tulafaras' date='20 February 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1266713907' post='2194325']
Really guys in all honesty lay off NSO. They fought to the best of their ability against superior numbers. If the few unharmed (or moderatly harmed) nations they have left stay in peacemode i won't blame them. Anything else doesn't make much sense.
Personally the NSO members i've fought did their best and fought well for the most part some random moments as they happen in every war non-withstanding, even when they were rather clearly outmatched in strength.
Considering the amount of alliances still at war with NSO (and some other alliances usually) saying they should come out of peacemode and fight is idiotic at best. War rethoric or not, stick to something usefull to talk about.
@Heft: active wars? because the search does include a rather large percentage of inactive wars which haven't been deleted.

edit: searched for it, 141 active wars, still a decent number considering how long this war has been going on.
[/quote]

Nobody really said anything about NSO. It was more directed towards GOONS then anything. I have no qualms with NSO they've acted more then honorably in this war, and that's alot coming from me because i'm not their biggest fan.

[lanceman1972]

Its nice to see peace. I take my hat off to my TFD opponents in this war. They fought like hell and I have nothing but respect for them. Perhaps next time we'll fight on the same side. Good war guys.

[x Tela x]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='20 February 2010 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1266713104' post='2194318']
Ah, yes, the Unjust War. Sure, we certainly deserved a beatdown, but not to be given the boot from Planet Bob. Two wrongs, and all that jazz...
[/quote]

I agree with this statement.

Though, Lamuella, your P needs to be lowercase in your last post.

UJW was nearly as bad for NPO as it was for the UJP.


And.. This is so far off topic now.. As I said before, to the victor go the spoils - so enjoy the blood money goonies. You earned it.

I'm done here. My presence going back and forth with you guys is just derailing this.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Heft' date='20 February 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1266690977' post='2193884']
This is one of the most flabbergastingly idiotic ideas I've seen floating around here lately. Not even you can actually believe that.

Anyway, if they agreed to pay reps then whatever, I'll just make sure to not join those alliances. It is baffling that these alliances would submit to such treatment.
[/quote]

Maybe if you take it out of context, it is. The idea that WP will result in everyone feeling cheery and the world getting along is ridiculous. In fact, your side has used our leniency to maintain much of its capabilities, only to re-engage us in the next war. If you win, you can make us pay reps and re-establish your dominance. If you lose, you can bow out after 2 weeks of war, rebuild, and try again.

[quote]Really guys in all honesty lay off NSO. [/quote]

No

[quote]to be fair, peace mode when used right is a very useful strategic weapon in making a second wave.
Posted Image[/quote]

Yes, if they actually have a second wave. Just sitting in PM and saying "IT'S A TACTIC! Also, isn't it amazing how we still have 1.5m NS after 3 weeks? (please don't notice over half of that is untouchable)" is... well, it's very NSO-like. What do you expect from such a terrible alliance, though? Courage?

[quote]Edit: What's going to be next? Attacking us while we are paying reps? [/quote]

Nope. We'll wait until you're done paying them. See you soon!

Edited February 21, 2010 by Penkala

[Heft]

[quote name='Penkala' date='20 February 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1266715821' post='2194347']
Maybe if you take it out of context, it is. The idea that WP will result in everyone feeling cheery and the world getting along is ridiculous. In fact, your side has used our leniency to maintain much of its capabilities, only to re-engage us in the next war. If you win, you can make us pay reps and re-establish your dominance. If you lose, you can bow out after 2 weeks of war, rebuild, and try again.
[/quote]
The idea is already out of context. It amounts to "9 months ago, we gave (mostly) terms that lacked harsh monetary reparations. Today, most of those alliances are on the opposite side of us in a war. Therefore, 'lenient' reps were a mistake and only led to them reorganizing against us." Your theory pretty blatantly ignores all of the intervening time in between and what has or hasn't happened on both sides to lead to this point, and ignores how we got to this point to begin with (Polar didn't have any terms in Karma, as I recall).

It's a poor theory that doesn't account for ten billion other possible factors and is really just a transparent attempt to justify going back on the rhetoric employed last year in order to milk out some juicy reps this time around.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='20 February 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1266698520' post='2194062']
sorry I had to go that far back in history. NADC haven't actually won a war since then, so it's tough to say if their attitude has updated or not.
[/quote]

You know, I really don't know whether to laugh or just facepalm. I guess, all I can offer is good luck trying to paint us as remotely ebil? And Tela's right, I believe there is only one current member who actually was in NADC during the war...


[quote]I'm sure GOONS will be sorry to hear that the money they're getting will not help them in the slightest :| They must be pretty poor nation builders. On a serious note, please remember that for smaller nations such a relatively tiny amount can in fact be quite a bit and with proper organization, sleds combined with aid slots filled by these reps can be mightily beneficial to these smaller nations. [/quote]

It's like what, 100 infra tops (for the average small nation)? My point was that in the scheme of it all, it's not much and does much more to hurt the opposition than is a viable spoils of war sorta thing.

[quote]Again, as to the exacerbating of the situation of the losing party, they should have thought of that before attacking someone. You're right, they based their DoW's on the need of friends and that's admirable, but it doesn't excuse them of the responsibility for their attacks. No one can ever be forced to declare war on someone, whether they have an MDP, MDoAP, MADP, etc. An alliance chooses when to go to war offensively. These alliances attacked others, and its ridiculous to purport that they should walk away after this without anything to make up for the attack.

If you attack an alliance, you'd better be prepared for any terms that could be imposed upon you in the event of a loss. [/quote]

I think out of all the good things Karma has done, what I think is the best that has changed is mainly that attitude and pervasive sense of fear that came with war, kind of a unspoken agreement that is like: "You stand up for your friends, that's cool. We're here for a good fight too, so lets waltz and then we can go our separate ways."

So I don't think it's ridiculous to purport in a war such as this, that the losers [i]should[/i]n't be paying reps at all.

[Barron von Hammer]

Umbrella was a good fight; Antoine Roquentin, Rardie, and Boddah, thanks for the dance, enjoyed it. Hope our paths cross again in more favorable circumstances.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Heft' date='20 February 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1266718023' post='2194387']
The idea is already out of context. It amounts to "9 months ago, we gave (mostly) terms that lacked harsh monetary reparations. Today, most of those alliances are on the opposite side of us in a war. Therefore, 'lenient' reps were a mistake and only led to them reorganizing against us." Your theory pretty blatantly ignores all of the intervening time in between and what has or hasn't happened on both sides to lead to this point, and ignores how we got to this point to begin with (Polar didn't have any terms in Karma, as I recall).

It's a poor theory that doesn't account for ten billion other possible factors and is really just a transparent attempt to justify going back on the rhetoric employed last year in order to milk out some juicy reps this time around.
[/quote]

Not really. I mean, if we're just going to let them off with WP each time, they're just going to keep attacking us with the hope that they win. And we've seen what you and yours do with power.

(Time for a really bad metaphor )

Say you're a cop and see someone rob a bank. You know this guy - he has been entering banks, taking money, and killing off the tellers for a couple months. You take him out of the store and let them go. Then you're surprised to see that next week, he's robbing a bank again!

Is the proper response,

a) Take the robber out of the store and let him go again
b) Arrest him and put him in jail for a while

[quote]It's like what, 100 infra tops (for the average small nation)? My point was that in the scheme of it all, it's not much and does much more to hurt the opposition than is a viable spoils of war sorta thing.[/quote]

More like 3-400. And if it's not enough to help a small war-wary nation to have, how is it enough to [i]harm[/i] a large, war-wary nation [i]not[/i] to have it?

Edited February 21, 2010 by Penkala

[President Sitruk]

[quote name='Penkala' date='20 February 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1266720532' post='2194440']
Not really. I mean, if we're just going to let them off with WP each time, they're just going to keep attacking us with the hope that they win. And we've seen what you and yours do with power.

(Time for a really bad metaphor )

Say you're a cop and see someone rob a bank. You know this guy - he has been entering banks, taking money, and killing off the tellers for a couple months. You take him out of the store and let them go. Then you're surprised to see that next week, he's robbing a bank again!

Is the proper response,

a) Take the robber out of the store and let him go again
b) Arrest him and put him in jail for a while
[/quote]

you're right, wasn't the best metaphor but i understand what you're trying to get across. in the Coincidence Coalitin's thread regarding white peace and terms, they said it was their way of throwing out an off and for SuperGrievances to counter-offer. that's how peace talks work.

[LYDIASLAND]

[quote name='Hyperion321' date='20 February 2010 - 05:28 AM' timestamp='1266643707' post='2193014']
Congrats to all of the victors.

And a special nod to WAPA. You guys went to hell and back during this war, and had to endure a lot for the good of the coalition. Sparta salutes you o/
[/quote]



Cheers ma man but we likes it


o/ Sparta.

Edited February 21, 2010 by LYDIASLAND

[zenergy]

Hey guys, can we get back to the real issue here? Namely that 99% of what goes on in #wapa is completely unintelligible for those of us that speak proper (American, that is) English? Seriously, I know they say they speak the same language as us, but I can't understand a word of it.* Maybe they should have gotten reps so they could afford to hire a translator.**

[size="1"]*except for Baskan - I can understand him fine, I just don't want to...[/size]

[size="1"]**I accidentally WAPA ya face. Sry.
[/size]

[baskan1]

[quote name='zenergy' date='20 February 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1266722710' post='2194486']
Hey guys, can we get back to the real issue here? Namely that 99% of what goes on in #wapa is completely unintelligible for those of us that speak proper (American, that is) English? Seriously, I know they say they speak the same language as us, but I can't understand a word of it.* Maybe they should have gotten reps so they could afford to hire a translator.**

[size="1"]*except for Baskan - I can understand him fine, I just don't want to...[/size]

[size="1"]**I accidentally WAPA ya face. Sry.
[/size]
[/quote]
Thanks for ignoring me XD just kidding you know i luv ya

Edited February 21, 2010 by baskan

[Dave93]

I'd like to point out to those who are hating on the reps that if NPO was still in power and they had given out the reps you'd probably all be going "fair and honourable terms NPO"

not that I'm saying we're like the old NPO

Edited February 21, 2010 by Dave93

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Dave93' date='20 February 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1266723405' post='2194493']
I'd like to point out to those who are hating on the reps that if NPO was still in power and they had given out the reps you'd probably all be going "fair and honourable terms NPO"

not that I'm saying we're like the old NPO
[/quote]No, we're obviously worse

Edited February 21, 2010 by JT Jag

[Lazarus Grant]

[quote name='JT Jag' date='20 February 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1266724249' post='2194504']
No, we're obviously worse
[/quote]

At least we agree on something.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Penkala' date='20 February 2010 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1266720532' post='2194440']Not really. I mean, if we're just going to let them off with WP each time, they're just going to keep attacking us with the hope that they win. And we've seen what you and yours do with power.[/quote]
Yeah, because NATO, TFD, GUN, LSF, ADI and LSN have such a track record of horrifying oppression.

Oh wait... no they don't. NATO did get GPA reps, but hey, so did FOK, and Umbrella fought in that war as well.