The emergence of "Do not surrender syndrome"

[wickedj]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='09 February 2010 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1265774871' post='2171823']
THis war didn't start all at once, and it will not finish that way either. Sometime in early March it will occur to people that all the wars have finished and the debate over what it all meant can begin.
[/quote]
This.

Some alliances are STILL just joining the fight, while others such as STA fought for a short period and had time to restock before coming back in. give it a full month or so of fighting before some of the littler guys start to cave under the numbers while the bigger AAs could be fighting well into April...and TOP could probably fight till June or so

[Merrie Melodies]

1. How does this war end? When one side no longer has the military financial ability to sustain war, and submits to terms that make Pacifica's look like a walk in the park.
2. When does this war end? Unfortunately I believe this war will not end until one side is utterly crushed.
3. Why does everyone feel the need to push their pixels to the limit all of a sudden? See #1 (They don't want to be "THAT" side).

[Chickenzilla]

[quote name='Earogema' date='10 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1265828651' post='2172916']
Vox had it without warchests.
[/quote]
Warchests are for chumps.

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='10 February 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1265832219' post='2173017']

As far as surrenders are concerned, why surrender? I ask that to both alliances and individual nations. Why would you wish to surrender, was the commitment in the defense pacts signed and announced with such fanfare contingent upon a particular level of damage? Was an individual nation's membership and all those tall claims of alliance > my nation, just that, tall claims? A nation may fall to war, it might vanish given enough time in economic depression, it can be refounded, rebuilt and rearmed. Trust lost, cannot usually be regained easily. Neither can tarnished reputations be made to shine. The world and its natives have long memories.
[/quote]

Because you're bill-locked, for one. There comes a time when you simply don't have the economic capacity to wage war. What's left after that? Simply stay there and let a trio of nations bomb what's left of you into the Stone Age until your nation is nothing but ashes and ghosts?

Or you surrender, take the surprisngly reasonable terms offered in this war, and you set yourself on an even footing so you won't have to surrender next time?

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Xiao Weng' date='11 February 2010 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1265834243' post='2173095']
Because you're bill-locked, for one. There comes a time when you simply don't have the economic capacity to wage war. What's left after that? Simply stay there and let a trio of nations bomb what's left of you into the Stone Age until your nation is nothing but ashes and ghosts?

Or you surrender, take the surprisngly reasonable terms offered in this war, and you set yourself on an even footing so you won't have to surrender next time?
[/quote]
I already did say that a nation might vanish due to economic depression, that meant inability to meet the bill payments that a nation needs to make and subsequent death of a nation. Also note I discounted that as a possible deterrent to not surrendering. I also said that a nation can be reborn. I am not saying that your view is not the correct one, most likely it is the correct one for a lot of people. I guess it is all upto the priorities of individual nation rulers. Survival of one nation, which can be reborn anyways, or not doing something one said one wont do [leave others hanging].

[Xiao Weng]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='10 February 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1265839190' post='2173237']
I already did say that a nation might vanish due to economic depression, that meant inability to meet the bill payments that a nation needs to make and subsequent death of a nation. Also note I discounted that as a possible deterrent to not surrendering. I also said that a nation can be reborn. I am not saying that your view is not the correct one, most likely it is the correct one for a lot of people. I guess it is all upto the priorities of individual nation rulers. Survival of one nation, which can be reborn anyways, or not doing something one said one wont do [leave others hanging].
[/quote]

While my sheep are indeed mindless, I have a care for them and I would rather not see them annihilated out of my own personal sense of hubris.

[Yggdrazil]

[quote name='Drai' date='10 February 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1265816073' post='2172638']
It ends when everybody feels satisfied with the results, or if one side knows they aren't progressing enough to accomplish anything worthwhile and is willing to take reps or terms from the other side. For now, neither of those are close to happening.

I really don't see how many people will be satisfied with white peace in this case. Anybody I've seen pushing for white peace was part of the aggressors' side. Obviously they'll feel that way because ever since the beginning of the war their side has been growing more outnumbered. Meanwhile the Defending side has been gaining influence, and very much feels that they were wrongly attacked. They don't want to run the risk of this happening again so they want to make sure they're not at a disadvantage to the other side. At this point in time that won't happen with white peace, and even in a couple weeks I don't see it being very plausible.

That's what I've observed from "my side's" point of view at least.
[/quote]

So ,let me get this straight.Your side is winning and handling the other side, yet they are still a threat. The logic of this escapes me.It's just one of many from your side that just defies any reason.The vaulted PR machine of MK is showing chasms instead of cracks.

[Alterego]

[b]How does this war end?[/b] Our side will be smashed beyond repair resulting in an exodus from Bob
[b]When does this war end?[/b] 6 weeks to 6 months
[b]Why does everyone feel the need to push their pixels to the limit all of a sudden?[/b]
We remember the reps, terms and banning from the karma war. I dont wnt to be someones tech farm/piggybank for a year like NPO

Edited February 10, 2010 by Alterego

[Andre27]

[quote name='Overlord Shinnra' date='10 February 2010 - 04:53 AM' timestamp='1265774001' post='2171782']
We are now almost two weeks into the most destructive war known to Bob and we have had a grand total of 1 - 3 surrenders out of a possible almost 100 alliances. This after another war had just transpired or continued into this one. We have several alliances that have lost NS to the clip of 50% of their total starting NS and continue to freefall with more not far behind. We used to see alliances surrender once they got uncomfortable but I have talked to several whom I consider decent opinions on the matter and all agree that this war doesn't even look close to over.

The questions then become;

How does this war end?
When does this war end?
Why does everyone feel the need to push their pixels to the limit all of a sudden?


Discuss.
[/quote]

I still consider Karma and UJW to be far more destructive. If there is a lack of surrenders it's because, in general, most alliances saw this coming and prepared for this war for a long time.

[jerdge]

[quote name='Mechanus' date='10 February 2010' post='2172570']We're already in the 2nd week of February, so you're saying that we'll see 1/2 - 3/4 of the alliances at war starting getting/offering peace by end of Saturday?[/quote]
Ahah for some reason I thought March and wrote February. I'm that silly. Fixed (and thanks).

[potato]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' date='10 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1265841018' post='2173285']
So ,let me get this straight.Your side is winning and handling the other side, yet they are still a threat. The logic of this escapes me.It's just one of many from your side that just defies any reason.The vaulted PR machine of MK is showing chasms instead of cracks.
[/quote]

No, it's because you're thick. Or playing thick in order to paint MK as big meanies. Think about it, really. I promise it won't hurt.

[Jimmy2e]

I don't surrender as a individual because it is not about saving my pixels, its about saving those of the nation next to me. I believe that this sentiment reigns true inter-alliance as well. Needless to say, we here at the MCXA will never leave a brother behind.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Alterego' date='11 February 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1265843325' post='2173341']
[b]How does this war end?[/b] Our side will be smashed beyond repair resulting in an exodus from Bob
[b]When does this war end?[/b] 6 weeks to 6 months
[b]Why does everyone feel the need to push their pixels to the limit all of a sudden?[/b]
We remember the reps, terms and banning from the karma war. I dont wnt to be someones tech farm/piggybank for a year like NPO
[/quote]
This is absolutely true and I could not of put it better myself, because of the karma war and the massive reps that were established as the norm there nobody wants to be a techfarm/piggybank and be in virtually slavery for over a year and will fight to the death and take a mass exodus from planet Bob in preference to such a fate.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[jerdge]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='11 February 2010' post='2173504']This is absolutely true and I could not of put it better myself, because of the karma war and the massive reps that were established as the norm there nobody wants to be a techfarm/piggybank and be in virtually slavery for over a year and will fight to the death and take a mass exodus from planet Bob in preference to such a fate.[/quote]
While we're on it, becoming a "techfarm/piggybank" doesn't guarantee that you'll be safe from those same that were/are going to exploit you, while making them pay dearly for every day they keep you in a won (by them) war - well - that really helps in ensuring that they will think twice before going the same route again (if not against you because you'll be obliterated, against someone else).

More on topic: several alliances - some pretty big - are on the "sidelines" of the TOP-CnG "hostility" and they're not really "that" interested in it. When these players will start getting out of the conflict (formally or just effectively), TOP and (especially) CnG will start to think of the risk of taking still a lot of damage, while other potential rivals go back to their nations building...

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='10 February 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1265849697' post='2173504']
This is absolutely true and I could not of put it better myself, because of the karma war and the massive reps that were established as the norm there nobody wants to be a techfarm/piggybank and be in virtually slavery for over a year and will fight to the death and take a mass exodus from planet Bob in preference to such a fate.
[/quote]
Large reparations didn't start with the K War. As someone who has allegedly been playing since '07 you should remember that.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='10 February 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1265849697' post='2173504']
This is absolutely true and I could not of put it better myself, because of the karma war and the massive reps that were established as the norm there nobody wants to be a techfarm/piggybank and be in virtually slavery for over a year and will fight to the death and take a mass exodus from planet Bob in preference to such a fate.
[/quote]

Woah there, "established as the norm"? Are you kidding? There were like 3 Hegemony alliances that were given significant reps to pay, out of 40+.

Unlike past wars, the Karma War ended in whitish peace for pretty much all peripheral alliances; only the heaviest hitters and the main instigators received any kind of serious terms. I do not believe this conflict will be any different and I will certainly be pushing for a whitish people for all alliances only fighting us because of treaties.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 February 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1265855274' post='2173664']
Woah there, "established as the norm"? Are you kidding? There were like 3 Hegemony alliances that were given significant reps to pay, out of 40+.

Unlike past wars, the Karma War ended in whitish peace for pretty much all peripheral alliances; only the heaviest hitters and the main instigators received any kind of serious terms. I do not believe this conflict will be any different and I will certainly be pushing for a whitish people for all alliances only fighting us because of treaties.
[/quote]
It can be quite reasonably argued that everyone in this war is fighting to honour a treaty.
This is why this war is such a tangled and confused mess.

This war is not a unified whole like previous great wars, it is a collection of loosely connected associated conflicts, CnG is not fighting the entirety of the TOP side and the reverse is also true. there are numerous sideshows as alliances are drawn into the conflict as the defence clauses of their treaties are activated and they attack a element of the opposing side but remain neutral to the rest of that side, or at least attempt to do this to avoid escalating this already escalated conflict any more.

This war has been called the WTF war by many and I think that that title is fitting, every time I look at the war dec web I say that exact thing.

The lesson to be learned here is to keep only a few treaties that you plan to honour to the point of death and ditch the rest when this war ends.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Yggdrazil]

[quote name='potato' date='10 February 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1265849363' post='2173495']
No, it's because you're thick. Or playing thick in order to paint MK as big meanies. Think about it, really. I promise it won't hurt.
[/quote]
If reason and rationality is thick...call me thick. Your alliance mate hoisted himself on his own petard.You cannot claim you are readily handling a threat and then in the same paragraph state that said threat still exists.A is A not none A.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Yggdrazil

[Jinnai]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='10 February 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1265855274' post='2173664']
Woah there, "established as the norm"? Are you kidding? There were like 3 Hegemony alliances that were given significant reps to pay, out of 40+.

Unlike past wars, the Karma War ended in whitish peace for pretty much all peripheral alliances; only the heaviest hitters and the main instigators received any kind of serious terms. I do not believe this conflict will be any different and I will certainly be pushing for a whitish people for all alliances only fighting us because of treaties.
[/quote]Which is why the DNSS has developed. Would you like to be in an alliance that has terms that would effectively make you a tech/aid farm for a year?

[Guffey]

this war will end, when NPO becomes the #1 alliance again. Which should not take too long if everyone kills each other. Then each side will look at each other and say, "well so much for that."

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Jinnai' date='11 February 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1265866904' post='2174082']
Which is why the DNSS has developed. Would you like to be in an alliance that has terms that would effectively make you a tech/aid farm for a year?
[/quote]
You could ask GPA how it felt when you did it to them.

[Caesius]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' date='11 February 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1265866530' post='2174061']
If reason and rationality is thick...call me thick. Your alliance mate hoisted himself on his own petard.You cannot claim you are readily handling a threat and then in the same paragraph state that said threat still exists.A is A not none A.
[/quote]

How can one handle a threat unless it still yet exists? And what does "A is A not none A" mean?

And winning a war does not eliminate the threat. Remember how NPO bounced back after GWI? No? Read up on it then.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='11 February 2010 - 02:54 AM' timestamp='1265856898' post='2173735']
It can be quite reasonably argued that everyone in this war is fighting to honour a treaty.
This is why this war is such a tangled and confused mess.

This war is not a unified whole like previous great wars, it is a collection of loosely connected associated conflicts, CnG is not fighting the entirety of the TOP side and the reverse is also true. there are numerous sideshows as alliances are drawn into the conflict as the defence clauses of their treaties are activated and they attack a element of the opposing side but remain neutral to the rest of that side, or at least attempt to do this to avoid escalating this already escalated conflict any more.

This war has been called the WTF war by many and I think that that title is fitting, every time I look at the war dec web I say that exact thing.

The lesson to be learned here is to keep only a few treaties that you plan to honour to the point of death and ditch the rest when this war ends.
[/quote]
After running back to read TOP's DoW on MK I have no idea who you could argue it was due to treaties. On a different note, maybe the real lesson is not to interfer in something thats not your business, HINT: FoA

[avernite]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='11 February 2010 - 09:35 AM' timestamp='1265877347' post='2174341']
After running back to read TOP's DoW on MK I have no idea who you could argue it was due to treaties. On a different note, maybe the real lesson is not to interfer in something thats not your business, HINT: FoA
[/quote]

Indeed, \m/ suffered quite a bit for interfering with FoA.

[Earogema]

[quote name='avernite' date='11 February 2010 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1265880130' post='2174381']
Indeed, \m/ suffered quite a bit for interfering with FoA.
[/quote]
True.

But hey, we didn't end up having to fight on both sides of this new war.