Polaris White Peaced.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='shaneprice' date='31 January 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1265007134' post='2150052']
The whole thing is confusing. It may have been a trap it may not have been. While NPO and GGA are not exactly friends, this is not something I could imagine AlmightyGrub doing. Therefore, for the moment, I will give him the benefit of the doubt until someone proves otherwise.
[/quote]

I think we can all agree that Grub wouldn't be in any rush to diffuse the situation. I mean, look who is getting NS piled on them.

[Fantastico]

This war should be over for everyone, but old grudges, blind loyalty and pride are keeping it going.

Some leaders want a piece of certain alliances and they are not about to let something like the war being over get in their way.

I had hoped cooler heads would have prevailed by now, but this is not the way of Planet Bob.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='01 February 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1265009013' post='2150098']
This war should be over for everyone, but old grudges, blind loyalty and pride are keeping it going.

Some leaders want a piece of certain alliances and they are not about to let something like the war being over get in their way.

I had hoped cooler heads would have prevailed by now, but this is not the way of Planet Bob.
[/quote]
I agree, once the original issue was resolved the war should of ended.
But as they say the whole situation went FUBAR and now we are in our current situation.

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='01 February 2010 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1265005855' post='2149990']
In all honesty, Chief and Grub came to an agreement to end the war before TOP even declared their war on C&G. What took us so long to actually make the announcement was getting Poison Clan and FOK's approval and thus their signatures. If they had said no to the peace deal, we'd still be fighting Polar because \m/ had no intention of leaving Poison Clan behind and I know Poison Clan didn't want to do that to FOK either. It really was an amazing coincidence, one I'm not going to even deny for a second that I find highly amusing, absolutely amazing and something I'm glad happened in the manner it did. But that's all it was; a coincidence. This front of the war was over before Archon or anyone else said or did anything in regards to the conflict. Whatever the reasoning for NpO was, devious or not, I do not know nor do I care. And to be honest it doesn't really matter either. Even if we were still at war with the NpO, TOP/IRON declaring war on C&G "pre-emptively" was foolhardy, stupid and just opened the door to more than they bargained for.
[/quote]
So just to be sure I understand what you say:
\m/, the one seeking peace as is the one getting pounded had the resolve to keep fighting until their allies are notified and agreed on the peace agreement. On the other hand Polaris, the second (or third whatever) stronger alliance of CN was so eager to accept peace that they couldn't delay the procedure in order to at least notify NSO for the finalization of the peace agreement. I don't count TOP / IRON because all CN is aware about the agenda of Polaris. Anyway, at least one order has balls o/ NSO

[Steelrat]

You guys won´t see that often, so save it

[b]I 100% agree with Branimir[/b]


[quote name='Branimir' date='30 January 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1264879395' post='2145235']
What one normal alliance leader does in a situation in which Grub was, when approached by metal alliance that they accept the terms all of the !@#$@#$ sudden, is to say: Hey, that is grand, now let us make a cease fire while I run this with the rest of the gang (like, you know TOP and IRON which he knew were going in to support his $@!, so to tell them, the reason why they are entering is over).

That is what one normal leader without any innuendos do, in that situation.
[/quote]

[quote name='Branimir' date='31 January 2010 - 03:35 AM' timestamp='1264905356' post='2146265']
Grub had all the reasons to pause for a short period, after metal alliance accepted the deal all the sudden after days of negotiation, and after he covered all the bases that were in play, and of which he knew, on his side which was his responsibility as the primary antagonist-- shake hands and call it quits.

Now, in best case scenario-- Grub is naive and silly and got played like a child. NSO, TOP, IRON et all, will feel it.
Or, what seems likely-- he wasn't.

Choose.
[/quote]


Grub knew that TOP&Iron were going to join, maybe not that they will hit the whole C&G but Grub knew what TOP&IROn were up to, i can assure you that TOP and Polar communicated a lot. So Branimir´s conclusion is absolute correct.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Steelrat

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='01 February 2010 - 07:36 AM' timestamp='1265009783' post='2150116']
I agree, once the original issue was resolved the war should of ended.
But as they say the whole situation went FUBAR and now we are in our current situation.
[/quote]
This war was comming either way, our little tiff just provided a bigger spark than the Athens-TFP incident. I believe and I hope its true for Polaris that when our thing kicked off neither of us seen it going down like this. Although I hope some are coming to understand the real tragedy of a mexican standoff.

o/ NpO, you were awesome adversaries.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='01 February 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1265005855' post='2149990']
In all honesty, Chief and Grub came to an agreement to end the war before TOP even declared their war on C&G. What took us so long to actually make the announcement was getting Poison Clan and FOK's approval and thus their signatures. If they had said no to the peace deal, we'd still be fighting Polar because \m/ had no intention of leaving Poison Clan behind and I know Poison Clan didn't want to do that to FOK either. [/quote]

It seems to me that while \m/ was talking to their allies about whether to agree to peace, NpO should have been talking to their allies.

[quote]Even if we were still at war with the NpO, TOP/IRON declaring war on C&G "pre-emptively" was foolhardy, stupid and just opened the door to more than they bargained for.[/quote]

On that, I agree.

[savethecheerleader]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='01 February 2010 - 07:25 AM' timestamp='1265030702' post='2150321']
This war was comming either way, our little tiff just provided a bigger spark than the Athens-TFP incident. I believe and I hope its true for Polaris that when our thing kicked off neither of us seen it going down like this. Although I hope some are coming to understand the real tragedy of a mexican standoff.

o/ NpO, you were awesome adversaries.
[/quote]
Pretty much this. Even if this were a trap (you've got to be pretty daft to think so), it's not like it would have changed anything. It should have been clear the moment ODN started getting all cozy with CnG who the winning side was likely to be.

It's truly a shame that this is happening, I for one had my opinion of TOP and IRON changed for the better when I learned they were going to step up for us. (Of course, I didn't know that they would be preemptively attacking our allies instead of defending our mutual allies in NSO ) I'd rather not see them rolled like this, but it's just the way things worked out.

o/ \m/, it certainly was fun while it lasted.

[Derwood1]

From PC's point of view I logged on to find that TOP had DOW on C&G. I talked to Archon about it but I had not talked to \m/ yet to hear about their talks with Polar. So I got Twisted on the horn he talked with the interested parties and we decided to peace as it was in our best interest.

It was actually a pretty simple decision since TOP was being opportunistic and aggressive to 2 of our treaty partners and numerous other friends we pretty much roll with all the time.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='01 February 2010 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1265005855' post='2149990']In all honesty, Chief and Grub came to an agreement to end the war before TOP even declared their war on C&G.[/quote]
Thank you for confirming that. Makes things even more clear.
[quote name='Steelrat' date='01 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1265027273' post='2150275'][b]I 100% agree with Branimir[/b][/quote]

You know somebody messed up bad, when this happens. ;D
[quote name='Steelrat' date='01 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1265027273' post='2150275'][b]Grub knew that TOP&Iron were going to join, maybe not that they will hit the whole C&G[/quote]
Little of Ivan's insight: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79707&view=findpost&p=2149793"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79707&view=findpost&p=2149793[/url]

Multiple things we can take from this: If Grub didn't knew for certain, he knew it was on the table; they coordinated among themselves in an ad hoc coalition manner.

Unfortunately, Grub is not illuminating any light on this from his point of view; just continues to grand stand and posture insulting people while he goes;
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454&view=findpost&p=2149681"]http://forums.cybernations.net
/index.php?showtopic=79454&view=findpost&p=2149681[/url]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454&view=findpost&p=2149711"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454&view=findpost&p=2149711[/url]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454&view=findpost&p=2150237"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79454&view=findpost&p=2150237[/url]

Quite a sad display after everything. Apparently, situation will become clear,...sometime in the future,... Ok, then. Though, in the mean while I do believe that most of us have come to some quite logical and reasonable assumptions on what we have, and it is quite a lot actually, and opinions about what transpired and what are all the possible implications of actions made. Insulting peoples intelligence, bad show, in my mind. Better would be then to explain yourself, or if the moment is inconvineint for some reason, keep quite until you can with arguments explain your side of the story.

In the mean while, Ivan's comments keep being very indicative: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79707&view=findpost&p=2149449"]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79707&view=findpost&p=2149449[/url]. I do believe at this point, we all do have an accurate idea of what basically happened, here. Its just matter of perspective of how you judge actions of various players in the story line.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Branimir

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' date='01 February 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1265001923' post='2149718']
My question to NpO is why Almighty Grub could not have told \m/ that the conflict had escalated beyond just their two alliances and he needed time to communicate with those friends who had joined in to help? This is in no way a breaking of his word but taking care of friends.You betrayed everyone that DOWed in your defense.Fark never gave NSO peace and they are a treaty partner.
View PostTheNeverender, on 29 January 2010 - 12:10 AM, said:
To \m/, PC, and FOK...

Thank you. I hope I can one day repay the faith you have shown.
[/quote]

We didn't need Grub to tell us the conflict escalated beyond the alliances initially involved. \m/ has a pretty good literacy rate contrary to popular belief. We we there too, we saw the DoWs. For anybody questioning \m/'s motives in accepting the peace, here they are. We had proved our point to the world. NpO made demands and we stood up to them. Most neutral observers has decided by the point of that peace that \m/ was foolish to raid FoA and that Grub was foolish to revive a done and done issue. So our goals in this war were pretty much met. While it would have been nice to win an eventual victory over the NpO and accept surrender terms, that outcome was by no means a sure thing. My perspective on the conflict changed when I got a PM from Jyrinx of STA detailing the situation regarding TOP/TSO and how this war was weakening the opposition to the Orange camp. Battles of ego are fun and all but we know when the time comes to drop ego and focus on things more important. We fought for nearly a week and inflicted significant damage to the New Polar Order (as they did to us). Our egos were satisfied. But the continued escalation of the war was detrimental to our interests. While we could have won the war, it would have been a damaging victory for the whole coalition, including (most likely) CnG. And while \m/ and CnG aren't on the best of terms, CnG's continued success is in line with our interests. If CnG had been caught between TOP and NpO's allies, it would have been trouble for all of us. We were considering all of this before Archon ever asked us to do him a favor by peacing out. Archon's request of us only served to cement our resolve that declaring peace was a good idea.

[Neo Uruk]

Guys, I'm pretty sure this wasn't a set-up. If anything, it was TOP/IRON/whoever going insane and asking someone else if it was okay to hit their direct allies.

[Balkan Banania]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='01 February 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1265053807' post='2150891']
We didn't need Grub to tell us the conflict escalated beyond the alliances initially involved. \m/ has a pretty good literacy rate contrary to popular belief. We we there too, we saw the DoWs. For anybody questioning \m/'s motives in accepting the peace, here they are. We had proved our point to the world. NpO made demands and we stood up to them. Most neutral observers has decided by the point of that peace that \m/ was foolish to raid FoA and that Grub was foolish to revive a done and done issue. So our goals in this war were pretty much met. While it would have been nice to win an eventual victory over the NpO and accept surrender terms, that outcome was by no means a sure thing. [b]My perspective on the conflict changed when I got a PM from Jyrinx of STA detailing the situation regarding TOP/TSO and how this war was weakening the opposition to the Orange camp.[/b] Battles of ego are fun and all but we know when the time comes to drop ego and focus on things more important. We fought for nearly a week and inflicted significant damage to the New Polar Order (as they did to us). Our egos were satisfied. But the continued escalation of the war was detrimental to our interests. While we could have won the war, it would have been a damaging victory for the whole coalition, including (most likely) CnG. And while \m/ and CnG aren't on the best of terms, CnG's continued success is in line with our interests. If CnG had been caught between TOP and NpO's allies, it would have been trouble for all of us. We were considering all of this before Archon ever asked us to do him a favor by peacing out. Archon's request of us only served to cement our resolve that declaring peace was a good idea.
[/quote]


So I can wear a tin foil hat and speculate:
The \m/ war started, Polaris brought NSO and STA in.
NSO discussed with IRON their entrance and IRON/TOP were positive about it.
STA and NpO discussed with the Oranges details concerning their entrance. IRON & TOP said they plan to hit the whole C&G and NpO, STA and NSO argued
STA and NpO discussed with MK the possibility that IRON & TOP will enter the fray.
STA and NpO decided that their interest lie with C&G, thus they contacted \m/ et al. as you say, I suppose that MK made some contacts as well.
STA and NpO discussed with the Oranges details concerning their entrance and got ready for their exit from the war.
NpO couldn’t drag NSO out of the mesh as then the news for the coming peace would reach IRON and consequently Orange, thus they left NSO out of the "negotiations".
NpO "accepted" peace in a hurry after the Orange declaration (I think it would be better if you had a template ready, posting IRC logs without signatures seems amateurish ).
Another approach for the concluding part is that NSO was determined to fight the war, not leave IRON behind and not accepting the NpO/STA plan, thus they tried to keep NpO and STA in the war by not accepting peace.
Either way it seems like a trap and a poor show by former Frostbite brothers. I am also open to any other interpretation of the facts. Maybe by people with more insight than me, especially some of the moral crusaders of the past.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='01 February 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1265053807' post='2150891']
We didn't need Grub to tell us the conflict escalated beyond the alliances initially involved. \m/ has a pretty good literacy rate contrary to popular belief. We we there too, we saw the DoWs. For anybody questioning \m/'s motives in accepting the peace, here they are. We had proved our point to the world. NpO made demands and we stood up to them. Most neutral observers has decided by the point of that peace that \m/ was foolish to raid FoA and that Grub was foolish to revive a done and done issue. So our goals in this war were pretty much met. While it would have been nice to win an eventual victory over the NpO and accept surrender terms, that outcome was by no means a sure thing. [b]My perspective on the conflict changed when I got a PM from Jyrinx of STA detailing the situation regarding TOP/TSO and how this war was weakening the opposition to the Orange camp.[/b] Battles of ego are fun and all but we know when the time comes to drop ego and focus on things more important. We fought for nearly a week and inflicted significant damage to the New Polar Order (as they did to us). Our egos were satisfied. But the continued escalation of the war was detrimental to our interests. While we could have won the war, it would have been a damaging victory for the whole coalition, including (most likely) CnG. [b]And while \m/ and CnG aren't on the best of terms, CnG's continued success is in line with our interests.[/b] If CnG had been caught between TOP and NpO's allies, it would have been trouble for all of us. We were considering all of this [b] before Archon ever asked us to do him a favor by peacing out.[/b] Archon's request of us only served to cement our resolve that declaring peace was a good idea.
[/quote]
CSM, nobody is really criticizing metal alliance's role, here. You played quite nicely during this entire thing.

Oh, wow. Thank you for this insight. Yes, the pieces of the puzzle are falling together nicely. Archon took a lot of credit for well played move from your side,..... yes, you should take some too. Credit is given where it is due. You can claim it as well. You played a good ally for your side.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Branimir

[bzelger]

Absolutely not. Jyrinx of STA didn't do anything. Jyrinx of Aquitaine sent you that pm, of his own volition, and as far as I'm aware completely independently. We weren't part of any scheme or machination. We were there for our ally and we were expecting to go all the way down.

We were fully committed to the success of our side and I would still be in the fray right now if I had my way. The sudden peacing of \m/ was as big of a surprise to me as anyone else. The combination of the sudden peacing out combined with the TOP/IRON move that activated our treaties on the other side resulted in our abrupt and unpleasant departure from the war. It was not the result of any back-room dealing that we had any part in.

I'm not happy about how things went down for a large number of reasons, but I will stand on the certain fact that we never intentionally betrayed or sold out anyone.

[Fantastico]

This does not make the STA or Jyrinx look bad. It shows he wanted to see a peaceful resolution.

It does, however, raise a lot of questions about Archon.




edit: seeing the statement below, I disagree with Jyrinx's grasp of the issues. That does not mean I don't respect his plea for a peaceful resolution.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Fantastico

[Jyrinx]

Pshh, this is the PM I sent Chief Savage:

[quote name='Jyrinx' timestamp='1264662153' date='28 January 2010 - 02:02 AM']
Hey,

First of all I'd like to note that I am not sending this message in any way in official capacity as a government member of STA; I'm just sending this as Jyrinx.

So yeah, this war is !@#$@#$ stupid. TOP/IRON/TSO and basically ex-hegemony will be fighting with Polar and friends against Superfriends + CnG (I doubt they'll be neutral; CnG will be pushed towards your side of the war). Let me phrase this more clearly:

TSO (aka the scum of the earth) along with TOP and friends will be fighting. With Polar and friends. Against CnG.

This is retarded. Everything about this war is retarded. I hate the !@#$%* situation STA and others have been placed in. Hell, STA is now at war with CSN, a classy alliance that we have no beef with. This sucks.

I know you're going to say this is Grub's fault. I'm not going to contest that at all, instead please just look at this pragmatically: we're empowering TSO and friends. Even if your side wins, you'll take tons of damage and the damage you dish out will be heavily tilted towards the Polar subset and not the TSO/TOP subset. Basically, the coalition that is capable of standing up against TOP + ex-hegemony in the future will kill itself here.

Grub has gone off on one of his weird moral crusades. Don't know why, don't really care. But apparently from what I'm getting all you guys have to do is apologize and not tech raid really large alliances or something. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Even the guys that are supporting you (like Stumpy et al) think that you guys are dumb for raiding so liberally.

So yeah, here's basically my question here: is there anything I can say to you to get you to just do that (i.e. apologize for Grub being insulted and then not raiding large alliances or whatever the $%&@ it is Grub is going on his moral crusade about)? In the same topic, you could basically say that grub is incompetent and you think he's a bully or whatever. I think Grub just wants the apology to be specific to whatever slurs were said to him.

Again, I know you don't care about your infra; neither do I to be honest. What I do care about is that the anti-TSO/TOP+friends alliance is killing ourselves. Over something retarded. Grub is weird, but from a sheerly pragmatic point of view I just had to send this to you and ask if there was anyway I could convince you guys to peace out this !@#$%* situation.

Regardless of your response, take it easy man and all the best.

- Jyrinx, guy who thinks this war is stupid[/quote]

There was no conspiracy and I even stated at the beginning this was my own view. I had no idea btw that TOP and IRON were going to pre-emptively hit CnG (if others in gov knew, they didn't inform me).

Edit: Also, just so my views on TOP are clear:

[16:37] <%Jyrinx[STA]> Nothing against you btw Obama
[16:37] <%Jyrinx[STA]> or TOP
[16:37] <%Jyrinx[STA]> But you are allied to TSO
[16:37] <%Unsure> roll TSO
[16:37] <%Jyrinx[STA]> That's basically the jist of my beef with TOP

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jyrinx

[flak attack]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='01 February 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1265060025' post='2151076']
This does not make the STA or Jyrinx look bad. It shows he wanted to see a peaceful resolution.

It does, however, raise a lot of questions about Archon.

edit: seeing the statement below, I disagree with Jyrinx grasp of the issues. That does not mean I don't respect his plea for a peaceful resolution..
[/quote]
Archon starting working on resolving this issue before the the NpO-\m/ war even started. It's no secret that MK's friends were obliterating each other and we wanted it to stop.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='flak attack' date='01 February 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1265060518' post='2151101']
Archon starting working on resolving this issue before the the NpO-\m/ war even started. It's no secret that MK's friends were obliterating each other and we wanted it to stop.
[/quote]

Read what Chief Savage Man wrote again.

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='01 February 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1265053807' post='2150891']
We were considering all of this before Archon ever asked us to do him a favor by peacing out. Archon's request of us only served to cement our resolve that declaring peace was a good idea.
[/quote]

We know a lot of people were pushing for a peaceful resolution. Had Archon really wanted a peaceful resolution this war would now be over.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='01 February 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1265060759' post='2151114']
Read what Chief Savage Man wrote again.



We know a lot of people were pushing for a peaceful resolution. Had Archon really wanted a peaceful resolution this war would now be over.
[/quote]

MK mediated the peace talks that took place before the war started. They definitely never wanted the war to start in the first place. \m/ and NpO are responsible for the beginning of war, not MK.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Chief Savage Man

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='01 February 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1265060759' post='2151114']
Had Archon really wanted a peaceful resolution this war would now be over.
[/quote]
I honestly [i]hope[/i] you're doing this on purpose.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='01 February 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1265061371' post='2151151']
MK mediated the peace talks that took place before the war started.
[/quote]

Why would he ask you to do him the favor of [i]peacing out[/i] of the war?

This cat is out of the bag.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='01 February 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1265061371' post='2151151']MK mediated the peace talks that took place before the war started.[/quote]
But, for clarity sake, he approached you also with a "second" push for peace after it was known TOP/IRON is entering, as it comes out from your last post. Then you were more accommodating due to the larger picture which has become more clear to you, right?

Archon did what was in the best interest of his alliance and block. Tried to stop the war, then jumped on the opportunity that presented it self.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Branimir

[Yggdrazil]

No amount of convoluted logic mitigates the fact that NSO is not at Peace due to their ties to Iron and all others fighting for NpO are. This speaks volumes and no amount of sophistry will change it.

[bzelger]

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='01 February 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1265060175' post='2151083']
Again, I know you don't care about your infra; neither do I to be honest[/quote]
I don't think that means what you intended.
If you did mean it that way it's fairly clever.


As to the rest,