A Plea For Restraint

[Kzoppistan]

Alright stepping back and not getting entangle in all the circulatory argument lets lay it out and cut all the BS.

1. Like any great war, both sides have their fair share of points.

2. Athens are you really that upset TPF acted against you in the Karma war? Regardless of the hair-splitting about DoWs and surrenders, did you or did you not consider, in spirit, TPF to be your enemy? If not, then why didn't you attempt to improve relations then or now or even discuss the issue before attacking? It's clear that the animosity between you two is mutual and was in place before the Karma war. It is probably justified on both sides, but that can also be changed. Here and now.

3. The plan that was devised is indeed one to raise the eyebrows. However, if Athens has the capacity to put themselves in another persons shoes, they can see that desperate times require desperate measures. Does it need to be addressed and rectified?. Yes. Is the continuance of war the proper response? I say it is not. You've already got some good licks in on TPF, is your thirst for harm now sated? If not, then perhaps you should question how far is too far. A show of force to show that you are serious about such things is important. You've done that. You are already developing a reputation for hot-headedness. Now be the bigger man by proving you are not stubborn nor unreasonable by being willing to entertain diplomatic options.

Again, I urge you to take it to the table.

All in all, the whole thing is a mess. If the aggressors do not reign in their bloodlust now, though, they will only set in cycle the next wave of violence and seed a new crop of hate to be harvested at their expense very soon. Athens you are now in a strong position in the world standing. However, that standing is precarious at best, why throw away what you earned in the Karma war by acting in ways that will work against you?

Again, I am certain a reasonable degree of satisfaction can be obtained by all parties if only you are willing to make the effort.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Sandwich Controversy]

Request denied.

[Thistledown]

How many wars do you know of that have ended in two days?

Why on Bob would you think that 2 days of war is just comeuppance for attempting to completely destroy a community?

[supercoolyellow]

Good advice, but I doubt Athens cares right now about prudence, doing what is right, having a valid cb, etc, etc.

[Penkala]

Now, see, this is why you don't set in indefinite plans to enter and destroy from within another alliance. Nobody's going to accept someone trying to destroy their community as a just act of war. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[Kzoppistan]

Now, see, this is why you don't set in indefinite plans to enter and destroy from within another alliance. Nobody's going to accept someone trying to destroy their community as a just act of war. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

All acts of war are an attempt to destroy the community of the enemy.

[Chickenzilla]

I like the idea of drama in CN, so I'll go with...TPF allies, activate your treaty.

[Penkala]

All acts of war are an attempt to destroy the community of the enemy.

No, they're not.

[Earogema]

I'm going to restrain myself from not attacking TPF.

EDIT: Yeah, I know it's not funny, deal with it.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Earogema

[Arcades057]

This post is flawed as this war is not happening anyway. As we all know quite well, the era of the curbstomp came to its end with the end of the Hegemony. It's all a trick.

[TehChron]

Since mhawk was really Kira all along, it was inevitable that Matsuda(Athens) would be the one to shoot him and bring an end to his reign of terror over the world.

I'm sorry, this whole thing is just so ridiculous.

[Canik]

Request denied.

Hypocrisy recognized.

[Kzoppistan]

No, they're not.

Care to expand your rebuttal to contain some points?

[WorkingClassRuler]

If we're cutting the !@#$%^&*, I would have cut out the numbered paragraphs and simply went for a plea of diplomacy on both sides, not just towards Athens. TPF needs to be willing to surrender for war to be avoided.

[Kzoppistan]

If we're cutting the !@#$%^&*, I would have cut out the numbered paragraphs and simply went for a plea of diplomacy on both sides, not just towards Athens. TPF needs to be willing to surrender for war to be avoided.

I think that both sides need to engage in the diplomatic process, too. But surrender on one side? What about meeting halfway and seeing that both sides have valid points?

[WorkingClassRuler]

I think that both sides need to engage in the diplomatic process, too. But surrender on one side? What about meeting halfway and seeing that both sides have valid points?

Because the points that TPF have made are not valid to the points Athens and ROK presented in their original declarations. However, that would be a circulatory argument and I believe we're not getting into that in this thread, right?

Secondly because TPF called for the activation of their defensive treaties in their initial response, which is what's going to escalate this war. They would need to back down from that call in order to prevent war. No one else but TPF can do that... even if it is taking their allies a strangely long time to respond.

And thirdly because the primary allegation Athens and co. made against them was true. The onus is on them, and only them, to admit they shouldn't have done it and surrender. That's pretty much how taking responsibility for one's actions works, isn't it?

Edited December 29, 2009 by Working_Class_Ruler

[Kzoppistan]

Because the points that TPF have made are not valid to the points Athens and ROK presented in their original declarations. However, that would be a circulatory argument and I believe we're not getting into that in this thread, right?

Correct, refusal to acknowledge the points of the other side, and vice-versa, is the stumbling bloc towards finding common ground and compromise.

Secondly because TPF called for the activation of their defensive treaties in their initial response, which is what's going to escalate this war. They would need to back down from that call in order to prevent war. No one else but TPF can do that... even if it is taking their allies a strangely long time to respond.

Escalation is caused by the attacking party not refusing to halt for negotiations.

And thirdly because the primary allegation Athens and co. made against them was true. The onus is on them, and only them, to admit they shouldn't have done it and surrender. That's pretty much how taking responsibility for one's actions works, isn't it?

If TPF felt justified in their actions, then that argument is invalid, or at least open to serious debate. That Athens did not attempt any, what so ever, diplomatic overtures, it did not leave room for that debate to happen between them. I say, take it to the table, and if resolution cannot be found, war it is.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Doitzel]

I'd be glad to mediate peace discussions. I think I've demonstrated I'm more sympathetic to TPF's plight than any of their allies are, at the very least.

[Kzoppistan]

I'd be glad to mediate peace discussions. I think I've demonstrated I'm more sympathetic to TPF's plight than any of their allies are, at the very least.

Actually, and perhaps you were being facetious, but I think you would make a good mediator.

Except that I heard you were an internet punk.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[WorkingClassRuler]

Correct, refusal to acknowledge the points of the other side, and vice-versa, is the stumbling bloc towards finding common ground and compromise.

I agree with you there, but it would be nice if TPF acknowledged Athen's points instead of throwing up a whole bunch of irrelevant ones. Especially as it is those points that started this whole thing in the first place.

Escalation is caused by the attacking party not refusing to halt for negotiations.

Unfortunately we cannot retcon the past my friend. Athens and co. have already gone to war. What we have now is a valid argument (because both sides have valid points) from Athens against TPF. TPF needs to acknowledge their valid argument and, as much as it may pain them to do so, admit fault. Instead of doing that in their initial response - they chose to call on their allies to make this a global war. Once again, I say only they can correct that mistake.

If TPF felt justified in their actions, then that argument is invalid, or at least open to serious debate. That Athens did not attempt any, what so ever, diplomatic overtures, it did not leave room for that debate to happen between them. I say, take it to the table, and if resolution cannot be found, war it is.

I'm sorry, but I don't get how TPF feeling justified meant their actions were "at the least open to debate", but Athens, who also felt justified in their actions, should have negotiated. How is one right and the other wrong? TPF didn't negotiate with Athens before creating an alliance to infiltrate and destroy them. You cannot on one hand say TPF is possibly absolved of guilt because they felt it was a jolly good idea, then point accusatory fingers at Athens for doing the same thing (as in, thinking it was justified). That is what leads to !@#$%^&* and circulatory arguments my friend and I thought we weren't having any of that.

Now at the very least if you are willing to minimize what TPF did as being okay because they felt it was justified, then the same amount of forgiveness (I suppose) needs to be given to Athens. So if we've forgiven Athens for not negotiating and going straight to war, we are then left only with the point that Athens went to war for a valid and real reason, that TPF did in fact wrong them, and therefore that it is now TPF's responsibility to own up to their mistake and surrender.

Also, someone let Doitzel negotiate.

[Prime minister Johns]

I agree, But somehow I doubt that it is going to happen.

[Kzoppistan]

I agree with you there, but it would be nice if TPF acknowledged Athen's points instead of throwing up a whole bunch of irrelevant ones. Especially as it is those points that started this whole thing in the first place.

I agree with you there, but it is difficult for one to have an honest and open discussion while each others nations are killing each other. That's why I call for a halt of hostilities while negotiations take place.

Unfortunately we cannot retcon the past my friend. Athens and co. have already gone to war. What we have now is a valid argument (because both sides have valid points) from Athens against TPF. TPF needs to acknowledge their valid argument and, as much as it may pain them to do so, admit fault. Instead of doing that in their initial response - they chose to call on their allies to make this a global war. Once again, I say only they can correct that mistake.

In this case it's pretty much a stand off, for one side to try to force the other to admit some sort of fault instead of saying, let's step back and acknowledge each others view points as valid from each of their respective perspectives, will only continue the stand off and make the aggressor and defender seem unreasonable. Like I said previously, though, open dialog is difficult while shots are still being fired.

I'm sorry, but I don't get how TPF feeling justified meant their actions were "at the least open to debate", but Athens, who also felt justified in their actions, should have negotiated. How is one right and the other wrong? TPF didn't negotiate with Athens before creating an alliance to infiltrate and destroy them. You cannot on one hand say TPF is possibly absolved of guilt because they felt it was a jolly good idea, then point accusatory fingers at Athens for doing the same thing (as in, thinking it was justified). That is what leads to !@#$%^&* and circulatory arguments my friend and I thought we weren't having any of that.

The defining difference between then and now is that Hegemony and Karma were already at war, when tough decisions are made with little time, perspectives are slanted by the uncertainty of the future, and under immense pressure. It was a war time plan. Athens decision to go to war was made without any of those constraints, they picked the time and place and pulled a sneak attack on them. If they did that while the war between Hegemony and Karma was still going on, well, it would have been more appropriate at that time then now.

Now at the very least if you are willing to minimize what TPF did as being okay because they felt it was justified, then the same amount of forgiveness (I suppose) needs to be given to Athens. So if we've forgiven Athens for not negotiating and going straight to war...

First, I've stated before and stand by it that Athens does have a reason to be concerned about what happened 6 months ago. I still think it needs to be addressed. However, their decision to go to war without seeking redress was a gross mistake and the plan, while serious, not only did no harm, but was concocted under very strenuous circumstances. Again, not saying that there doesn't need to be a redress to that, but war as a response to it 6 months later does not seem appropriate with out first seeking out the party.

If there is to be an evening of the boards, then either party could start, but to pick one, TPF should say: "Perhaps our plan was not the best."

and Athens should say "No harm done. Perhaps we shouldn't have over-reacted."

TPF: "That's ok, it's understandable."

And either one can say: "Now what can we do to mend these fences?"

That's all it would take.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Tygaland]

I believe a slightly rotund yet handsome tiger man may have tried something like this pre-NoCB War. Not sure who, but it wasn't John Lennon.

Anyway, I hope your efforts are more successful than that charming and intelligent individual whose name escapes me.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Tygaland

[Doitzel]

Actually, and perhaps you were being facetious, but I think you would make a good mediator.

Also, someone let Doitzel negotiate.

See my sig.

Except that I heard you were an internet punk.

Guilty as charged.

[WorkingClassRuler]

I agree with you there, but it is difficult for one to have an honest and open discussion while each others nations are killing each other. That's why I call for a halt of hostilities while negotiations take place.

I agree, but what I am attempting to do is to move the finger-of-blame closer to the center than you were in your OP. I have the impression from the OP and various posts that you are holding responsibility for peace negotiations squarely and entirely on Athens' shoulders. I am saying TPF has it's fair share of responsibility also. I believe the call for restraint is a noble one, but it cannot be done while still looking accusingly at one side. Athens had valid reasons for attacking TPF, so they did. TPF needs to acknowledge that for peace to prevail - that's the only way I see this ending peacefully at the moment.

In this case it's pretty much a stand off, for one side to try to force the other to admit some sort of fault instead of saying, let's step back and acknowledge each others view points as valid from each of our respective perspectives, will only continue the stand off and make the aggressor and defender seem unreasonable. Like I said previously, though, open dialog is difficult while shots are still being fired.

Again I agree, but your OP didn't seem to be doing that. You seemed to be blaming Athens for the lack of peace negotiations, which is not fair. Now the main reason that war continues is that TPF, in their initial response, did not address the original accusations made by Athens, they simply made several irrelevant ones and then called in their allies for assistance. Now I am coming from the position that Athens were justified in declaring war because TPF's actions constitute an act of war, so the onus is therefore on TPF to admit to what they did, address the original accusation made by Athens and make amends for it.

But more to the point, the ball was placed in TPF's court - they decided to call in their allies and that is why we're on the brink of global war. In order for global war to be avoided, which is what you claim to want, it is TPF who needs to rescind their call for defensive support. That is the first step that needs to be made for negotiations to begin IMO.

The defining difference between then and now is that Hegemony and Karma were already at war, when tough decisions are made with little time, perspectives are slanted by the uncertainty of the future, and under immense pressure. It was a war time plan. Athens decision to go to war was made without any of those constraints, they picked the time and place and pulled a sneak attack on them. If they did that while the war between Hegemony and Karma was still going on, well, it would have been more appropriate at that time then now.

This is a circulatory argument my friend and we are not having it. Just remember that Athens have a valid point as well, and, just like TPF, felt justified in their cause for war. As I said, we must treat both actions the same.

First, I've stated before and stand by it that Athens does have a reason to be concerned about what happened 6 months ago. I still think it needs to be addressed. However, their decision to go to war without seek redress was a gross mistake and the plan, while serious, not only did no harm, but was concocted under very strenuous circumstances. Again, not saying that there doesn't need to be a redress to that, but war as a response to does not seem appropriate with out first seeking out the party. If there is to be an evening of the boards, then TPF should say: "Perhaps our plan was not the best."

and Athens should say "No harm done. Perhaps we shouldn't have over-reacted."

"That's ok, it's understandable. Now what can we do to mend these fences?"

That's all it would take.

Again I fear we are getting into a circulator argument. You seem to still be saying that Athens had a responsibility to negotiate, whereas TPF did not. TPF did not negotiate, nor make anyone else aware of their actions during the Karma war, so are just as responsible for their actions as you believe Athens are. My argument counters your argument, let's call it even.

Having done that, we must then defer to the earlier point that the most pressing concern at the moment is TPF's allies (eventually) coming to war and turning this global. Again I say that can ONLY be prevented by TPF calling off their allies, meaning it is within TPF's power right now, at this very moment, to prevent global war. So if we are going to campaign anyone for restraint, it should be to TPF.