A Plea For Restraint

[doctorrodders]

I think thats probably the biggest truth on this forum.

[Dochartaigh]

Exactly. It was a long time ago, and all Athens seems to be looking for is an excuse to go to war over the holiday season. This war could have broken out at any time, but instead they decide to forgo talk and jump straight into action over the holidays when they have nothing else to do. They bring in their allies, and then moan at TPF for not sitting there and taking it.

It dosnt make much sense to me

EDIT: Deathistan, I think people are calling you the attackers because you... attacked. Makes sense to me. You attacked withut talk, which does kinda make you the aggressor. Sorry.

seriously, TPF wanted to destroy Athens........ not just in a war, but destroy the community by actually attempting the first true forced disbandment of an alliance. this was not to be a disbandment due to external pressure making the internal pressure too much for the alliance. this was to be a disbandment done from the inside out. that is truly a despicable act regardless of whether it occurred or was halted by ZH.

if you honestly think that an attempt at forced disbandment is okay, then fine. i hope to admin your alliance never faces something like that.

well i have to admit. all you who kept saying you see the old power of the Heg coming back you are right. The days were an attempt at forced disbandment are okay is a day the old Heg has once more shown their face. Too bad you guys seem to be acting like Athens the one acting like Heg, when it was the Heg who supposedly loved to forcefully disband others as TPF attempted to do to Athens.

[Rob Holmes IIi]

if you honestly think that an attempt at forced disbandment is okay, then fine. i hope to admin your alliance never faces something like that.

In the middle of the Karma War they attempted to commit espionage. Before the war was over these plans were long abandoned. Espionage was simply an act of war in the middle of a war. Once the war was over, so were the attempts at espionage. In this scenario, when the said plans never even came to fruition, it is not unreasonable to say that Athens should, at the very least, try to talk to them about what occurred before declaring war and rallying all their allies.

[Bob Janova]

I'm not getting into the opinion sections of the post, but it would not have been the first attempt. FAN actually succeeded in taking Auric Armada down from the inside, and I believe made efforts to do the same to other hostile Yellow alliances.

[Rob Holmes IIi]

I'm not getting into the opinion sections of the post, but it would not have been the first attempt. FAN actually succeeded in taking Auric Armada down from the inside, and I believe made efforts to do the same to other hostile Yellow alliances.

Not to sidetrack too much but for some reason when FAN does it it's kind of funny. lol. I believe I was in one of those alliances too (DefCon) but not sure.

[Dochartaigh]

In the middle of the Karma War they attempted to commit espionage. Before the war was over these plans were long abandoned. Espionage was simply an act of war in the middle of a war. Once the war was over, so were the attempts at espionage. In this scenario, when the said plans never even came to fruition, it is not unreasonable to say that Athens should, at the very least, try to talk to them about what occurred before declaring war and rallying all their allies.

so forced disbandments due to war is okay? wow, Polaris and Pacifica were villianized for nothing. \m/embers spent 2 years whining on these boards over something that was seemingly okay.......

you realize that spying is not the act of attempting to destroy an alliance don't you? this is not just about spying but about TPF's attempt to destroy Athens from the inside out.

I'm not getting into the opinion sections of the post, but it would not have been the first attempt. FAN actually succeeded in taking Auric Armada down from the inside, and I believe made efforts to do the same to other hostile Yellow alliances.

my mistake. i did not know that and thank you though for adding more validity to Athen's side, since it has been done in the past, there was a reasonable chance it could have occurred to Athens.

[Rob Holmes IIi]

you realize that spying is not the act of attempting to destroy an alliance don't you? this is not just about spying but about TPF's attempt to destroy Athens from the inside out.

I refuse to excuse all of TPF's actions and give them a free ticket to do anything they please; nobody should have that. That being said, it was during the Karma war 6 months ago, based on testimony from a gang that had a falling out with Mhawk at the time, and it occurred during desperate times. Add on top of these facts that it never actually happened and the best we have would be the equivolent of an attempted crime at best - which is not to say it was a good thing - but maybe Athens should approach them the civil way first. I only plea for both sides to be reasonable.

[Lonely]

Why is preventing wars from happening a good thing?

[jimbacher]

when its still ongoing after the war? and well, the way they handled it, what they planned, they deserve to burn... If mhawk and TPF really wanted to have any kind of talk they could have done so between the Karma war and now...

He wanted Revenge and had to go as low as actively trying to cause Drama to do so... whenever the plan was thought up, burning them to the ground is fully justified...

It was not ongoing after the war...This has been established already.

[Dochartaigh]

I refuse to excuse all of TPF's actions and give them a free ticket to do anything they please; nobody should have that. That being said, it was during the Karma war 6 months ago, based on testimony from a gang that had a falling out with Mhawk at the time, and it occurred during desperate times. Add on top of these facts that it never actually happened and the best we have would be the equivolent of an attempted crime at best - which is not to say it was a good thing - but maybe Athens should approach them the civil way first. I only plea for both sides to be reasonable.

you are amongst the first to actually state this. most on your side seem to think that due to it being done 5 months ago and in the middle of a war it is okay.

the testimony was confirmed by Mhawk, JBone, Desperado, others. so the testimony is tantamount to sacrosanct.

the desperate times were also of TPF's own choosing as they had peace if they had chosen. thus, i do not quite understand how it was desperate if TPF knew they would get peace if they wanted it? because they chose to stay in until NPO got peace? not our problem period. why is TPF's choice to stay in a war our problem? it ain't. there was no desperate situation whatsoever and the fact ya'll keep claiming there was, is only because of TPF and no one else.

as for who should have approached who first? i would suggest it was TPF since they initiated a plan to attempt to forcefully disband Athens when at that point in time, Athens had done nothing to them. also, don't attempt that Athens was keeping TPF at war because Athens was at war with NPO. it is BS plain and simple. TPF kept TPF at war as TPF could always have accepted the peace offer that was on the table. thus, yet again, TPF and their allies seem to not hold TPF responsible for any of TPF's own actions or choices but instead continue to attempt to state that Athens is responsible for this, when i have clearly shown how much of it is TPF's own fault.

the fact that TPF's faults in this mess is continuously ignored not only by TPF but their allies and wellwishers is frustrating but amusing at the same time. it just rings of the old Heg's song and dances.

[Lonely]

It rings of old Heg's song and dances? Nonsense! It's almost like TPF..... is old Heg!!

[Dochartaigh]

It rings of old Heg's song and dances? Nonsense! It's almost like TPF..... is old Heg!!

trippy dude. that is just sooo dang trippy.

[Rob Holmes IIi]

How could TPF approach Athens first when they had no idea they were going to be attacked by them? If you make deviant plans but abandon them before a war even ends, those plans are buried and forgotten with the war. You don't go to Athens later and say "hey yeah we tried to spy on you, so sorry, you can use these logs as evidence and go destroy us please." No, one would simply leave it in the past. There was nothing TPF could have approached Athens about. It is unreasonable to say that Athens should have been approached by TPF before surprise attacking them for a 6 month old botched plan that was abandoned with an unfortunate war.

And as to them sticking in the war until NPO recieved peace - TPF did what they should have done: stuck by their allies.

[Keres]

hrmm... mkay This plan was long passed the "planning stage" as has been established (the alliance was created and the logs prove it was passed the "planning/joking around" stage)

Acting this way is not only disgusting but its also cowardly

Launching a Nuke or a few hundred Nukes at an alliance is one thing, but go in, cause drama with the intent of destroying friendships from the inside I cant help but think TPF deserves their fate

That is all

Edited December 29, 2009 by Deathistan

[Rob Holmes IIi]

hrmm... mkay This plan was long passed the "planning stage" as has been established (the alliance was created and the logs prove it was passed the "planning/joking around" stage)

Acting this way is not only disgusting but its also cowardly

Launching a Nuke or a few hundred Nukes at an alliance is one thing, but go in, cause drama with the intent of destroying friendships from the inside I cant help but think TPF deserves their fate

That is all

True friendships cannot be broken by troll spies.

[Lonely]

True friendships cannot be broken by troll spies.

It depends what information the spy discloses and the identity of the spy.

[Dochartaigh]

How could TPF approach Athens first when they had no idea they were going to be attacked by them? If you make deviant plans but abandon them before a war even ends, those plans are buried and forgotten with the war. You don't go to Athens later and say "hey yeah we tried to spy on you, so sorry, you can use these logs as evidence and go destroy us please." No, one would simply leave it in the past. There was nothing TPF could have approached Athens about. It is unreasonable to say that Athens should have been approached by TPF before surprise attacking them for a 6 month old botched plan that was abandoned with an unfortunate war.

And as to them sticking in the war until NPO recieved peace - TPF did what they should have done: stuck by their allies.

it is called coming clean during the peace process since Athens and TPF were at war (according to TPF). thus, Athens would have been present for the peace process at which point TPF could have come clean. that simple really.

it is unreasonable to state that TPF had no reason to come clean when ZH still existed outside of TPF and were still allied to Athens. the potential was always there. the only reasons to not come clean is either the operation was still in effect or TPF hoped to amend the relationship with ZH in order to reinstate the plan. why else would such an obviously harmless and botched plan not be outted by TPF, especially if such a plan was completely and utterly justifiable since it occurred during the Karma war and if such a plan was completely wiped clean by TPF's surrender?

see, none of what ya'll are saying adds up at all. none. TPF by all your reasons should have felt they deserved no consequences by coming clean. obviously, they felt that there were gonna be consequences and thus hid it.

heh........ if they felt there were gonna be consequences, their actions obviously weren't as justified by the involvement of a war nor the act of signing a peace treaty annulled the action. but if that is true, then much of ya'lls arguments fly right out the window so you continue with this logical fallacy? and continue to place the sole responsibility of diplomacy on Athens.

[Kzoppistan]

It's unfortunate that the topic I made to promote a coming together and seeing each others side for the sake of reconciliation has descended into the ridiculous hammering of the same talking points ad nauseum that's choking all the other threads on the matter.

It's almost as if some people prefer the dogpiling and destruction of an alliance rather than any attempt what so ever towards constructive discussion.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Augustus Autumn]

It's unfortunate that the topic I made to promote a coming together and seeing each others side for the sake of reconciliation has descended into the the ridiculous hammering of the same talking points ad nauseum that's choking all the other threads on the matter.

It's almost as if some people prefer the dogpiling and destruction of an alliance rather than any attempt what so ever towards constructive discussion.

Welcome to the 'verse.

[King Srqt]

Now, see, this is why you don't set in indefinite plans to enter and destroy from within another alliance. Nobody's going to accept someone trying to destroy their community as a just act of war. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I guess it is a good thing they never actually committed the crime then.

Edited December 29, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Rob Holmes IIi]

Well, let it be known then, those from Zenith said, "Come let us reason together," but were refused.

[astronaut jones]

How could TPF approach Athens first when they had no idea they were going to be attacked by them? If you make deviant plans but abandon them before a war even ends, those plans are buried and forgotten with the war. You don't go to Athens later and say "hey yeah we tried to spy on you, so sorry, you can use these logs as evidence and go destroy us please." No, one would simply leave it in the past. There was nothing TPF could have approached Athens about. It is unreasonable to say that Athens should have been approached by TPF before surprise attacking them for a 6 month old botched plan that was abandoned with an unfortunate war.

And as to them sticking in the war until NPO recieved peace - TPF did what they should have done: stuck by their allies.

TPF had demons, lots of them, and didn't come clean about them all. I've said before that, it might be wise of TPF conceded that point to their attackers and worked with them to gain peace. Mhawk is prideful to the point of absolute stubbornness, and no offense to him, but he's not the best or brightest leader around, though he's good at getting his allies to spout rhetoric over and over and over, but that doesn't make anything they say true.

Now, if TPF concedes that they should have come forward, and that in not doing so resulted in this war, then the other side (outside of \m/, they don't matter) should concede to TPF that the war has gone on long enough, and that diplomacy should have been the first course of action here, giving TPF a chance to come clean when confronted with this knowledge. After that, well, TPF can be under peace terms that aren't that harsh.

TPF needs to admit wrongdoing though. They're stuck playing the victim card and inviting everyone to their little pity party, however.

edit: I'm no fan of Athens, in fact I think this should be a c&g fight because of athens, and the fact that it's not is pretty !@#$@#$ stupid in my mind. I also believe that ZH should not be let off the hook for their participation in this, even if they did come clean, some sort of punishment is justified against them.

Edited December 29, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Chief Savage Man]

I might have considered diplomacy to be a good idea but then the CN love triangle surfaced and now I am of the opinion that somebody needs to obliterate everybody involved with that embarrassing situation. I also just hate everybody and like watching their numbers suffer steep declines.

[Roadie]

Alright stepping back and not getting entangle in all the circulatory argument lets lay it out and cut all the BS.

1. Like any great war, both sides have their fair share of points.

2. Athens are you really that upset TPF acted against you in the Karma war? Regardless of the hair-splitting about DoWs and surrenders, did you or did you not consider, in spirit, TPF to be your enemy? If not, then why didn't you attempt to improve relations then or now or even discuss the issue before attacking? It's clear that the animosity between you two is mutual and was in place before the Karma war. It is probably justified on both sides, but that can also be changed. Here and now.

3. The plan that was devised is indeed one to raise the eyebrows. However, if Athens has the capacity to put themselves in another persons shoes, they can see that desperate times require desperate measures. Does it need to be addressed and rectified?. Yes. Is the continuance of war the proper response? I say it is not. You've already got some good licks in on TPF, is your thirst for harm now sated? If not, then perhaps you should question how far is too far. A show of force to show that you are serious about such things is important. You've done that. You are already developing a reputation for hot-headedness. Now be the bigger man by proving you are not stubborn nor unreasonable by being willing to entertain diplomatic options.

Again, I urge you to take it to the table.

All in all, the whole thing is a mess. If the aggressors do not reign in their bloodlust now, though, they will only set in cycle the next wave of violence and seed a new crop of hate to be harvested at their expense very soon. Athens you are now in a strong position in the world standing. However, that standing is precarious at best, why throw away what you earned in the Karma war by acting in ways that will work against you?

Again, I am certain a reasonable degree of satisfaction can be obtained by all parties if only you are willing to make the effort.

This is a good post. It is all invalid however as the war has little to do with TPF beyond an old log that could be taken out of context to provid a supposed CB.

[Roadie]

TPF had demons, lots of them, and didn't come clean about them all. I've said before that, it might be wise of TPF conceded that point to their attackers and worked with them to gain peace.

That isn't possible. The attackers in this instance have refused to speak.