A Plea For Restraint

[Thistledown]

I'm not getting into the opinion sections of the post, but it would not have been the first attempt. FAN actually succeeded in taking Auric Armada down from the inside, and I believe made efforts to do the same to other hostile Yellow alliances.

Yes, you're right. And FAN would never have gotten peace if those alliance's friends were not forced to give up their war during Karma.

No one really cares if it happens, they care if it happens to them or their allies.

It's unfortunate that the topic I made to promote a coming together and seeing each others side for the sake of reconciliation has descended into the ridiculous hammering of the same talking points ad nauseum that's choking all the other threads on the matter.

It's almost as if some people prefer the dogpiling and destruction of an alliance rather than any attempt what so ever towards constructive discussion.

What you are seeing is why your plea for peace will not work. TPF thinks they were justified for starting ZH in a war. Athens thinks they are justified in attacking TPF for doing so. So your ideal both sides saying they were wrong simply won't work, because neither side believes they are.

Sorry if that puts Zenith in a bad spot, but there it is.

[The Reccesion]

It's unfortunate that the topic I made to promote a coming together and seeing each others side for the sake of reconciliation has descended into the ridiculous hammering of the same talking points ad nauseum that's choking all the other threads on the matter.

It's almost as if some people prefer the dogpiling and destruction of an alliance rather than any attempt what so ever towards constructive discussion.

I feel you. But hey they are doing this to themselves.

[astronaut jones]

That isn't possible. The attackers in this instance have refused to speak.

Have you conceded the point in an effort to get the ball rolling?

[Ogaden]

This just looks like a delay tactic to me.

[Dochartaigh]

I guess it is a good thing they never actually committed the crime then.

ahhh... so you agree that it is okay to plan it out and begin its execution regardless of outcome. how about if it was carried out but failed? like what if Athens just did not wanna merge with ZH for some reason? would it still be okay?

i am just curious as to how far you have to go before attempting to forcefully disband an alliance actually becomes a bad thing? because from your viewpoint, it is not a bad thing to attempt to do.

[Kzoppistan]

ahhh... so you agree that it is okay to plan it out and begin its execution regardless of outcome.

Actually, it is the outcome that determines my reaction. I don't really care what people plan and put into motion as long as it doesn't affect me. If I found out about it, I would confront them about it, but I wouldn't declare war without seeking a diplomatic resolution first. Life on Planet Bob is competition, especially at war time. I'm not going to boo hoo about it.

i am just curious as to how far you have to go before attempting to forcefully disband an alliance actually becomes a bad thing? because from your viewpoint, it is not a bad thing to attempt to do.

You've said 'forcefully disband' a number of times now, but I don't think it's going to catch on, you little propaganda machine you. How do you 'forcefully disband' an alliance from the inside? If anyone in my alliance suggested we disband I tell them to get out.

I consider anyone that is my enemy to be constantly trying to disband my alliance. As long as the attempt doesn't actually harm me, it doesn't bother me at all.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Ying Yang Mafia]

I would like to issue a plea for Zenith to recognize its MDAP with TPF and defend its ally. As exciting as this 4 on 1 fight is I'd prefer a little more action.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Ying Yang Mafia

[Kzoppistan]

I would like to issue a plea for Zenith to recognize its MDAP with TPF and defend its ally. As exciting as this 4 on 1 fight is I'd prefer a little more action.

Why don't you let Zenith and TPF worry about that, little buddy.

*edit: Sorry, it's your avatar that made me say it. Makes me want to pinch your little cheeks.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Dochartaigh]

Actually, it is the outcome that determines my reaction. I don't really care what people plan and put into motion as long as it doesn't affect me. If I found out about it, I would confront them about it, but I wouldn't declare war without seeking a diplomatic resolution first. Life on Planet Bob is competition, especially at war time. I'm not going to boo hoo about it.

You've said 'forcefully disband' a number of times now, but I don't think it's going to catch on, you little propaganda machine you. How do you 'forcefully disband' and alliance from the inside? If anyone in my alliance suggested we disband I tell them to get out.

I consider anyone that is my enemy to be constantly trying to disband my alliance. As long as the attempt doesn't actually harm me, it doesn't bother me at all.

actually it is a lot easier to forcefully disband an alliance from the inside out, rather than from the outside in. FAN it seems have proven both to be true.

as for whether it catches on, it don't matter. you guys are ignoring some heinous actions simply because Athens did not use diplomacy. all the while you also ignore the fact that TPF never used diplomacy by coming forward.

the attempt would be to fracture the alliance and then use that to destroy. not just suggest disbanding.

honestly, i do not consider disbanding any enemy as an option, though it is funny if they disband and then blame it on you. i also do not consider any enemy to be attempting to disband my alliance until it is proven they are doing such a heinous act. i am amazed that in this new Karma war there are so many who fought on Karma's side that support an alliance attempting to forcefully disband an alliance. yes, tis true that not much has changed in the world if that is the case.

[King Louis the II]

My opinion is very simple. TPF did a very bad thing. They deserved punishment. My only question is: Wasn't the punishment enough already? Maybe is time for a white peace.

If they want to continue, it is a different story.

Edited December 29, 2009 by King Louis the II

[King Srqt]

ahhh... so you agree that it is okay to plan it out and begin its execution regardless of outcome. how about if it was carried out but failed? like what if Athens just did not wanna merge with ZH for some reason? would it still be okay?

i am just curious as to how far you have to go before attempting to forcefully disband an alliance actually becomes a bad thing? because from your viewpoint, it is not a bad thing to attempt to do.

Ugh you are going to force me to do the two things i hate most on thee forums. Use legal analogies and latin phrases, but so be it.

The only "crime" that TPF could remotely be accused of is conspiracy.

TPF clearly planned out a plot with a goal to do harm to Athens so there is your mens rea.

They took steps to prepare for the goal of the plot so there is your actus reus.

Now the issue here is that your actus reus is not actually a crime in and of itself meaning you cant charge TPF with harming Athens but only with conspiracy to harm Athens.

For a more easily understandable example:

Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed. But can only be charged with robbery if the robbery was actually executed.

So I ask you this, is conspiring to do harm to an alliance whom you have a valid CB against (and who you are arguably already in a state of war with) a crime worthy of prosecution after the war has already concluded, surrender given and reps paid?

I think not.

[Dochartaigh]

Ugh you are going to force me to do the two things i hate most on thee forums. Use legal analogies and latin phrases, but so be it.

The only "crime" that TPF could remotely be accused of is conspiracy.

TPF clearly planned out a plot with a goal to do harm to Athens so there is your mens rea.

They took steps to prepare for the goal of the plot so there is your actus reus.

Now the issue here is that your actus reus is not actually a crime in and of itself meaning you cant charge TPF with harming Athens but only with conspiracy to harm Athens.

For a more easily understandable example:

Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed. But can only be charged with robbery if the robbery was actually executed.

So I ask you this, is conspiring to do harm to an alliance whom you have a valid CB against (and who you are arguably already in a state of war with) a crime worthy of prosecution after the war has already concluded, surrender given and reps paid?

I think not.

actually conspiracy to commit murder is a crime. as is conspiracy to commit armed robbery and what not. so conspiracy to do anything is essentially a crime in and of itself.

i see Athens charging TPF with the conspiracy and beginning the plan, as well as the obstruction of justice TPF pulled by not coming clean during the peace process or the 5 months after that.

it was against those who used it against Polaris. it has been a valid CB for a while that is until now. if you catch someone planning to destroy TJO, you are gonna let them off the hook cuz it was a few months old? all the while, since they did it once, they could or are damn well planning to do it again?

[Alterego]

You're a couple of days late in asking for restraint. Athens and co went on an orgy of destruction because they lack the ability to restrain their urge to run amok doing as they please. Their motto seems to be leap before you look.

[Kzoppistan]

actually it is a lot easier to forcefully disband an alliance from the inside out, rather than from the outside in. FAN it seems have proven both to be true.

as for whether it catches on, it don't matter. you guys are ignoring some heinous actions simply because Athens did not use diplomacy. all the while you also ignore the fact that TPF never used diplomacy by coming forward.

the attempt would be to fracture the alliance and then use that to destroy. not just suggest disbanding.

honestly, i do not consider disbanding any enemy as an option, though it is funny if they disband and then blame it on you. i also do not consider any enemy to be attempting to disband my alliance until it is proven they are doing such a heinous act. i am amazed that in this new Karma war there are so many who fought on Karma's side that support an alliance attempting to forcefully disband an alliance. yes, tis true that not much has changed in the world if that is the case.

Who's you guys?

Surely you don't mean the person who has been suggesting that some real diplomacy by both parties should be done?

You seem pretty intent on drawing lines and forcing everyone into camps. And you're focusing on all these ifs and thens and stuff that might of happened in some sort of alternate future when TPFs "evil plans" came to fruition, ect. And for a person who is only barely, and recently, connected, you seem awfully... rabid... about it. If you hate a faction on Planet Bob, be upfront about it, don't try to sabotage the workings of peace. I'm not saying your can't have your opinion, and I appreciate you taking time out of your day to let us know, but what I am saying is that this pounding on the war drum isn't helping either side come to an agreement much. Take it to some other thread to spout your vehemence, you've got plenty to choose from.

[King Srqt]

actually conspiracy to commit murder is a crime. as is conspiracy to commit armed robbery and what not. so conspiracy to do anything is essentially a crime in and of itself.

Which is why I said that the only crime they could be accused of is conspiracy. That would be a funny thing to say if my argument did not already take into account that conspiracy was a crime don't you think?

i see Athens charging TPF with the conspiracy and beginning the plan, as well as the obstruction of justice TPF pulled by not coming clean during the peace process or the 5 months after that.

First you have to begin the plan in order to qualify a crime for conspiracy, second there is no OJ charge, you are never mandated to confess to a crime (see self incrimination), if that was the case very single person convicted of anything at trial would also have an OJ charge slapped on them.

Third what TPF conspired to do was not a crime, planning acts of war against an alliance that you have a valid reason to be at war with is not a crime.

it was against those who used it against Polaris. it has been a valid CB for a while that is until now. if you catch someone planning to destroy TJO, you are gonna let them off the hook cuz it was a few months old? all the while, since they did it once, they could or are damn well planning to do it again?

If you catch someone actively plotting against you of course it is reason for war, it always has been and always will be. If you find out about an abandoned war plan that is months old and have no evidence that it was ever continued in peace time then no it i s not a valid CB.

I have said multiple times that if an opponent planned to destroy my alliance during war but never executed their plan and never attempted it during peace that I would have no issue with them.

[Merrie Melodies]

This is how I see it: (I am not in the war/peace decision making process in \m/ so soley my opinion)

First, we all need to step back and look closely at what kicked this off a few days ago. (a ugly and sorid affair)

Next we need to look at intent, both the original intent of the op and the present intent of the former operatives.

When I consider the above, it plays out to me that someone in ZH was out for revenge. I do believe that ZH formed and was originally setup for a black op as a sleeper cell. I also believe that the plan fell apart. I do not believe that TPF is guilty of any Karma war crimes, I do believe TPF is guilty of with holding information after the war. Even though the mission fell apart it was a mission launched and they should have told Athens about it. For those who say "it was over shut down nothing came of it" I say you are incorrect as we have a nasty little war going on that can easily explode into a global confict, rather hard to say nothing came of the ZH op.

Looking at where we are right now it seems rather easy to get out of this mess.

1. TPF apologizes for their over sight and for allowing a radical group to exist so close to Athens

2. Athens an Co. give white peace.

I am not privy to all the details of talks (are any for that matter) But I understand TPF will not accept peace without reparations, to this I say get over yourselfs, you did screw up even if you didn't realize it at the time, white peace is a good place to be.

Just the rambling thoughts of a pig, take them as you will.

[Kzoppistan]

This is how I see it: (I am not in the war/peace decision making process in \m/ so soley my opinion)

First, we all need to step back and look closely at what kicked this off a few days ago. (a ugly and sorid affair)

Next we need to look at intent, both the original intent of the op and the present intent of the former operatives.

When I consider the above, it plays out to me that someone in ZH was out for revenge. I do believe that ZH formed and was originally setup for a black op as a sleeper cell. I also believe that the plan fell apart. I do not believe that TPF is guilty of any Karma war crimes, I do believe TPF is guilty of with holding information after the war. Even though the mission fell apart it was a mission launched and they should have told Athens about it. For those who say "it was over shut down nothing came of it" I say you are incorrect as we have a nasty little war going on that can easily explode into a global confict, rather hard to say nothing came of the ZH op.

Looking at where we are right now it seems rather easy to get out of this mess.

1. TPF apologizes for their over sight and for allowing a radical group to exist so close to Athens

2. Athens an Co. give white peace.

I am not privy to all the details of talks (are any for that matter) But I understand TPF will not accept peace without reparations, to this I say get over yourselfs, you did screw up even if you didn't realize it at the time, white peace is a good place to be.

Just the rambling thoughts of a pig, take them as you will.

Merrie Melodies, that's a remarkably objective and even handed evaluation, imo.

[Merrie Melodies]

Merrie Melodies, that's a remarkably objective and even handed evaluation, imo.

Do you really think there is a snoballs chance of this simmering down?

A realistic look at the present global situation tells me that we have passed the point of no return. There is blood lust on my side and there are those on the other side who have already hesitated in the last confict that are being called out for inaction in this one. The term "honor" will be the undoing

[leprecon]

It's unfortunate that the topic I made to promote a coming together and seeing each others side for the sake of reconciliation has descended into the ridiculous hammering of the same talking points ad nauseum that's choking all the other threads on the matter.

It's almost as if some people prefer the dogpiling and destruction of an alliance rather than any attempt what so ever towards constructive discussion.

Well, let it be known then, those from Zenith said, "Come let us reason together," but were refused.

Your high horses, you need to get off them.

You say you want to a diplomatic solution but what you want is TPF to get no blame at all, and you basically advocate that one side is a bunch destructive warmongers without a cause to fight. (nice restraint by the way)

You are not seeking a middle ground if you are obviously on one side.

If you believe that what is happening is wrong, that's fine, just don't pretend you are a neutral mediator.

(that is all, I don't want to mix in the discussion surrounding the justification of the war)

Edited December 29, 2009 by leprecon

[Alterego]

This is how I see it: (I am not in the war/peace decision making process in \m/ so soley my opinion)

First, we all need to step back and look closely at what kicked this off a few days ago. (a ugly and sorid affair)

Next we need to look at intent, both the original intent of the op and the present intent of the former operatives.

When I consider the above, it plays out to me that someone in ZH was out for revenge. I do believe that ZH formed and was originally setup for a black op as a sleeper cell. I also believe that the plan fell apart. I do not believe that TPF is guilty of any Karma war crimes, I do believe TPF is guilty of with holding information after the war. Even though the mission fell apart it was a mission launched and they should have told Athens about it. For those who say "it was over shut down nothing came of it" I say you are incorrect as we have a nasty little war going on that can easily explode into a global confict, rather hard to say nothing came of the ZH op.

Looking at where we are right now it seems rather easy to get out of this mess.

1. TPF apologizes for their over sight and for allowing a radical group to exist so close to Athens

2. Athens an Co. give white peace.

I am not privy to all the details of talks (are any for that matter) But I understand TPF will not accept peace without reparations, to this I say get over yourself, you did screw up even if you didn't realize it at the time, white peace is a good place to be.

Just the rambling thoughts of a pig, take them as you will.

You think TPF need to apologise for doing nothing after taking a massive beatdown while ZH get off scot free? Fake \m/ & Co attacked TPF for no reason at all, you just wanted to get in on a beatdown you need to post an apology and pay for the damage you did for attacking an alliance for kicks. Getting worried about something?

Edited December 29, 2009 by Alterego

[Chief Savage Man]

You think TPF need to apologise for doing nothing after taking a massive beatdown while ZH get off scot free? Fake \m/ & Co attacked TPF for no reason at all, you just wanted to get in on a beatdown you need to post an apology and pay for the damage you did for attacking an alliance for kicks. Getting worried about something?

I apologize for honoring our treaties.

[Alterego]

I apologize for honoring our treaties.

Now pay up

[Chief Savage Man]

Now pay up

We will deliver 100 million dollars worth of war as reps.

[Alterego]

We will deliver 100 million dollars worth of war as reps.

I doubt you could deliver a cold pizza next door let alone a cruise missile.

[Chief Savage Man]

I doubt you could deliver a cold pizza next door let alone a cruise missile.

I've delivered 18 as a matter of fact. And I used to be a very good pizzaboy in high school.