Minilla Island Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'll be sure to avoid treatying with UINE, ever. It's called a MUTUAL Defense Pact, no one cares about reason, you've simply committed your alliance to protecting another upon signing such a pact. This is why these pacts are taken VERY seriously for particular honorable alliances which don't just randomly MDoAP everything and pick the stronger side of their own allies to be with. Probably the best alliance to note for doing this would have to be ODN, and NPO of the past. But, you know and I know, people have broken treaties for far less. I just don't think anyone is going to ride to TPF's rescue if they used ZH as a spy operation. Now, if it was a BS CB, which few are saying that it is, we would not even be having this discussion as the world would have gone up already. But, with too many people being away for the holiday, and a general consensus that TPF did do something wrong, many are sitting on their hands. When they pull their hands out, we will then see where this goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baden-Württemberg Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 A plan killed in its infancy before it could have even produced any results? I suppose we'll be calling this the Crimethink War. Yeah, I think it's comparable to the situation when these NSO logs were published. They got attacked for it, too, OH WAIT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ty345 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I say we all go rogue on Tyga for screwing with us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcturus Jefferson Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Pssh I stayed up two nights in a row for nothing waiting on IRON in the K war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtamdraugr Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I was up. I'll be up. I'm hoping TPF stuns us with an amazing counterstrike. I'm hoping TPF's friends elect to opt-in. Disappointed so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watson895 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 And people wonder why we don't like signing treaties. In the old days this wouldn't even be a question. Though, I gotta say: People this is a war game too. Losing all your infra in war is more fun than just collecting taxes every day, I promise. It doesn't even hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Näktergal Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I think its less about guilt/innocence rather just upholding the treaty they signed This statement actually sums up one of the mentalities I find reprehensible in CN. "I don't care what sort of horrible thing you did, or how morally repugnant I might find it myself, because I signed a piece of (digital) paper X months ago so now I'm obligated to defend you no matter why you're getting attacked." One could suggest an alliance should cancel treaties before that sort of moral conflict occurs - and that's true to some extent - but what if it's the first majorly stupid thing you ally has done, so you've never seen a problem with them before that point? You can't cancel at that point - alliances that cancel in situations like that are usually reviled and accused of cowardice. When if you ask me, it actually takes a hell of a lot more courage to cling to your convictions than it does to mindlessly support an ally who is seriously transgressing. Worse, the nature of the treaty web itself means you can easily get chain-dragged into wars being fought over an issue you disagree with, because one of your allies is treatied to someone, who is treatied to someone else, who is obligated to defend someone else, who does something stupid (an argument against chaining treaties if there ever was one). CN is basically trapped in a permanent state of politics akin to pre-WWI Europe - even the tiniest (or stupidest) spark can ignite global war. Politics today can easily create situations where a player has to say "I completely and utterly object to what you did, and are seriously pissed at you for it, but I'm obligated to defend you anyway. And if I try to sit out for moral reasons, people will spend the next few months bashing my reputation." And there's something seriously not right with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackKnight Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 This statement actually sums up one of the mentalities I find reprehensible in CN."I don't care what sort of horrible thing you did, or how morally repugnant I might find it myself, because I signed a piece of (digital) paper X months ago so now I'm obligated to defend you no matter why you're getting attacked." That is why you do not sign such a treaty with whomever. Mutual defense could mean mutual destruction and it often is. But once that paper is signed and you give your word, you are expected to uphold it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiCkO Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) That is why you do not sign such a treaty with whomever. Mutual defense could mean mutual destruction and it often is.But once that paper is signed and you give your word, you are expected to uphold it. indeed, The Legion doesnt sign a treaty lightly (hence why we have few treaties outside of purple) Edited December 28, 2009 by SiCkO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 All this bawwing about whether TPF is being ditched is awfully premature. Right after Christmas, unexpected war, lots of people missing. One day's delay isn't the end of the world and doesn't mean much in the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Greenberg Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 All this bawwing about whether TPF is being ditched is awfully premature. Right after Christmas, unexpected war, lots of people missing. One day's delay isn't the end of the world and doesn't mean much in the circumstances. This. One day doesn't change anything. Wait for update to see what happens. I'm sure most of TPF's allies were caught off guard when they saw the DoW. They just need time to prepare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The AUT Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Can't wait to see how many alliances condone sabotage Can't wait to see how many alliances support tech raiding large alliances with no purpose. The answer is an entire bloc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 TPF made too many mistakes as part of the hegemony, and everyone seems to remember it, even though it's quite clear that they've changed. People need to start looking more towards the present and the future, instead of always focusing on the past. Hopefully, someone will come to their defense, but I highly doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstills22 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 i stayed up all night as well disappointed :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcndwilson Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 It’s considered good karma to forgive old grudges That quote was from our surrender terms, seems some of the people who signed it have forgotten what they wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperbad Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) I stayed up a bit late for it all but rather expected nothing to happen. It will all depend on who their allies choose to believe. There's not much of a question who is telling the truth. It's the conclusions people are drawing from the information that causes the fracture. Okay not to go all elawyer here but that CB against TPF is for spying which is an offensive action. Coming to their defense would be required of their MDAP partners or those alliances that agreed to activate the oA portion of their treaties. Am I mistaken? It all depends upon how you interpret it really. Some believe you need to declare on each participant to actually be at war with them while others feel you need not when it's a war of such magnitude. Frankly, I see the spying operation as just an extension of the Karma war. The plan went sour and never was pushed forward to infiltrating the targetted alliances let alone the most advanced stage of actually destroying them internally. Additionally the length of time in the past with which this was planned and subsequently abandoned I see nothing that suggests an immediate threat. Of course I don't really see this war as actually accomplishing anything if there was seeing as how TPF wasn't going to attack but make you break up internally thus what is the point in rolling them? I'll find it humorous if this turns into a self-fullfilling prophesy because of brewing resentment causing them to pursue it though. The plan was for these protectorates to join the alliances and rise to government positions to destroy them from the inside. However the protectorates came clean and this plan did not advance. TPF is responsible for "attempted murder" to put it in OOC. For an OOC comparison it's more like they're guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. They didn't actually get far enough in their plans to attempt the act of destroying them from the inside; something which "attempted murder" charges would require. Can't wait to see how many alliances condone sabotage Such is a viable strategy and though I would never condone it [OOC: Not in the role of this character anyway but if you do it, pick people that don't care or like the game and bribe them in other games to carry out the act] I consider this more a question of if this happened so many months ago and all you have is that they stopped with the plan for what ever reason, where's the threat? Having conducted the act once doesn't establish a pattern. Frankly, I think people just see the original plan and think that's good enough for them (spies tend to get people riled up no matter what the case - big taboo) because they're bored and want a war. Edited December 28, 2009 by Hyperbad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Obama Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Next time don't stay up all night then. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OberstKrieger Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That quote was from our surrender terms, seems some of the people who signed it have forgotten what they wrote. I know you can do better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcndwilson Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I know you can do better than that. Late night my friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespassianus Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 TPF made too many mistakes as part of the hegemony, and everyone seems to remember it, even though it's quite clear that they've changed. People need to start looking more towards the present and the future, instead of always focusing on the past. Hopefully, someone will come to their defense, but I highly doubt it. Do you wanna take bets? Also come on, no need to hurry, war will wait, it won't run away so fast. One update or two doesn't matter a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Do you wanna take bets? Also come on, no need to hurry, war will wait, it won't run away so fast. One update or two doesn't matter a lot. I've got 3mil saved up that says nobody will come to TPF's aid Mr. Vespassianus. If you really think someone will, then send me a PM and I'll take this bet up with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike717 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I've got 3mil saved up that says nobody will come to TPF's aid Mr. Vespassianus. If you really think someone will, then send me a PM and I'll take this bet up with you. I'll take your bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastico Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 This statement actually sums up one of the mentalities I find reprehensible in CN."I don't care what sort of horrible thing you did, or how morally repugnant I might find it myself, because I signed a piece of (digital) paper X months ago so now I'm obligated to defend you no matter why you're getting attacked." One could suggest an alliance should cancel treaties before that sort of moral conflict occurs - and that's true to some extent - but what if it's the first majorly stupid thing you ally has done, so you've never seen a problem with them before that point? You can't cancel at that point - alliances that cancel in situations like that are usually reviled and accused of cowardice. When if you ask me, it actually takes a hell of a lot more courage to cling to your convictions than it does to mindlessly support an ally who is seriously transgressing. Worse, the nature of the treaty web itself means you can easily get chain-dragged into wars being fought over an issue you disagree with, because one of your allies is treatied to someone, who is treatied to someone else, who is obligated to defend someone else, who does something stupid (an argument against chaining treaties if there ever was one). CN is basically trapped in a permanent state of politics akin to pre-WWI Europe - even the tiniest (or stupidest) spark can ignite global war. Politics today can easily create situations where a player has to say "I completely and utterly object to what you did, and are seriously pissed at you for it, but I'm obligated to defend you anyway. And if I try to sit out for moral reasons, people will spend the next few months bashing my reputation." And there's something seriously not right with that. Taken by itself, no matter what conflict is the topic, this is the best post I've had the fortune of reading on these forums yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiCkO Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'll take your bet. same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owned-You Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I STAYED UP TILL 5 AM FOR NOTHING?!?!?! Actually, I stayed up questing on Dragon Age Origins...so I'm good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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