The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[HalfEmpty]

Why would Athens want to resolve it diplomatically?

Indeed, why would they?

LOL Karma!

[Proko]

the part where this falls apart on you is the fact that TPF put themselves in a state of indefinite war. it was never forced upon them and they could have left the war at any time. thus, they had a very legit tactic to stop having damage dealt to them.

thus, there was never a reason for TPF to attempt this spying operation especially against alliances they were not at war with. thus, your three points are useless and in one case false (point #2 is false).

No, they aren't. Ignoring the issue of PC's outrageous peace demands, the state of war is not the important factor here. No harm was actually imparted on Athens as a result of this scheme, and there was a six month gap in time from the planning and totally failed execution of this plan until the declaration of war.

I am a member of an alliance that has been attacked for an outdated casus belli. My alliance was attacked due to idle speculation about the prospect of war with TOP and contingency plans developed in that eventuality. I felt and still feel that attack was unjust and diplomacy could have prevailed, and Polaris could have been spared its darkest month. To me, this situation is very similar, and while perhaps no settlement may have been reached, negotiations could still have at least been attempted.

[Dochartaigh]

Excuse me if im wrong, but dont most if not all treaties with defence clauses state something along the lines of "an attack on either signatory will be seen as an attack on both signatories"

actually no. that clause is very rare. most are written as an attack on one signatory requires the other to aid them in defense. but very few, if any, nowadays are written as you stated.

Perhaps the cost of your prescribed tactic was simply too high? One could go around in circles all day arguing whether they HAD to do what they did. One could say that FAN and Vox's situations were themselves self imposed and could have been relieved at any moment by a simple re-roll of their already ZI'd nations. In both cases I think there was a group or alliance that felt they had to stay at war to be true to themselves. (In this instance putting friends in NPO ahead of their development ambitions). So to them accepting those terms was simply not an option, but neither was doing nothing. None the less I think you miss my point. The point was, if an actual recent case of spying warrant's a diplomatic attempt, then so does a planned case of spying which took place six months ago under asymmetrical war time conditions, self imposed or otherwise. In short if the worst possible act at least warrants diplomacy first, so does its lesser variations.

wait, my tactic? what are you talkin about my tactic?

as for FAN/Vox- iirc, NPO and the others at war, actively sought out re-rolls of FAN nations, and Vox nations that re-rolled were also actively pursued. that is a far difference from the situation that TPF had, where they had peace terms on the table and chose to reject them.

it is not Karma's fault that TPF did not accept terms, that was a personal choice. FAN never got terms and Vox only got terms on a nation by nation basis with many not receiving terms at all. thus, Vox could not stay as a viable alliance in order to gain peace and FAN never got terms at all. thus again your point fails.

yet again, you miss the point that TPF could have used the diplomatic road and let Athens know about ZH and never once did TPF step forward to warn Athens. so why should TPF get this diplomatic treatment if they never once attempted the same for Athens. in fact, did TPF even attempt to talk to Athens about their war against NPO and attempt diplomacy to gain NPO peace or did they go straight for the spying/attempting to destroy Athens tactic?

it is amazing that you think that only Athens should have attempted diplomacy when it is quite clear that TPF never once considered it in their dealings with Athens.

[deathcat]

Well, considering the timeframe for this whole crap CB occured in the Karma War, the CB is just one of convenience. I know I won't sway the side looking for a free tech ride.. its the way things were in the Heg days as I remember most of you saying at the time... But it doesn't change the fact that this was out of nowhere as we were reaching out to some of you, MK, if not for a treaty but as a sign of mutual respect for your alliances. We had no grand design to bring down Rok and others, though there was a brief period where my friend Twist of PC was riding the wave of revenge and was in no way interested in letting the jackboot off of us while we were taking a beating and they were reaping casualties, land and tech . I see this war as one of convenience and where things are twisted to make us look like we are still being agressive. We were in no position to regain our position of strength and actually have no desire to be THAT type of alliance.

I will war if that is what I must do.. but I oppose the view the other side is portraying TPF.

Best of luck resolving this soon..

oo/TPF

[Matthew Conrad]

No, they aren't. Ignoring the issue of PC's outrageous peace demands, the state of war is not the important factor here. No harm was actually imparted on Athens as a result of this scheme, and there was a six month gap in time from the planning and totally failed execution of this plan until the declaration of war.

I am a member of an alliance that has been attacked for an outdated casus belli. My alliance was attacked due to idle speculation about the prospect of war with TOP and contingency plans developed in that eventuality. I felt and still feel that attack was unjust and diplomacy could have prevailed, and Polaris could have been spared its darkest month. To me, this situation is very similar, and while perhaps no settlement may have been reached, negotiations could still have at least been attempted.

The difference would be that your alliance didn't put those plans in motion, whereas TPF did put these plans in motion.

[King Louis the II]

As much as I understood from this is that:

1. ZH was not formed to spy on Athens. It was formed to destabilise Athens and make it disband by creating tensions inside the alliance after merger.

2. It is really logical for ZH and TPF not to communicate with each other because that would give them out. There is no need to communicate either.

3. When ZH already existed and mhawk knew that they were going to go on with the plan, why didn't he tell the guys to stop or inform Athens?

This all makes up a really good CB for me. Unless ZH is manipulating with us.

Thats what I was asking to myself.. Most people here are discussing about whether the spionage could be a CB or not.. but was not just to spy! It was to destabilize an alliance, which it makes it a much worst thing.

[bigwoody]

Ok, my curiosity is piqued.

Is intent to spy a valid CB?

Opinions welcome

Edited December 27, 2009 by bigwoody

[neneko]

so 28 pages comming up and the main line of defense is still "sure you might have proof that we sent people over to spy on you but you can't prove that they actually did any spying". Doesn't that line of defense seem silly to anyone else? If you send spies to someone then you're attempting to spy, the ammount and quality of the information you get out of it isn't relevant.

TPF made a choice to send these spies over. After the karma war ended they still had the same people planted at the same place and still choose to keep quiet about the spying operation. That's where the "this was during the war so it's fine" line of defense fails.

[Dochartaigh]

No, they aren't. Ignoring the issue of PC's outrageous peace demands, the state of war is not the important factor here. No harm was actually imparted on Athens as a result of this scheme, and there was a six month gap in time from the planning and totally failed execution of this plan until the declaration of war.

I am a member of an alliance that has been attacked for an outdated casus belli. My alliance was attacked due to idle speculation about the prospect of war with TOP and contingency plans developed in that eventuality. I felt and still feel that attack was unjust and diplomacy could have prevailed, and Polaris could have been spared its darkest month. To me, this situation is very similar, and while perhaps no settlement may have been reached, negotiations could still have at least been attempted.

you forget, i was Polar during that war as well.

as for state of war not being a factor, i agree it is not. but the fact is, TPF knew of an attempt to spy on Athens as well as an attempt to destroy Athens, regardless of whether they were part of it or not, they knew of the attempts and never once went to Athens. this to me makes it much more likely that TPF was in on the entire thing otherwise, if it was a split as mhawk states, why did they never come forward with this information and allow ZH to take the punishment?

the only reason i can conclude is that TPF was hoping for information to be gained from this as well as the destruction of Athens due to TPF having helped plan it.

to me, this situation is more similar to a hypothetical situation where Polaris had found out who was planning on attacking Polaris during the SPW, and Polaris striking first based on the fact that there were alliances that plotted to destroy Polaris.

[D34th]

The difference would be that your alliance didn't put those plans in motion, whereas TPF did put these plans in motion.

Just the first step was in motion, create ZH. From there the leaders of ZH had no contact with TPF anymore, they do not hurt Athens in any shape or form, and no information was gave to TPF. After 6 months this really worth a war without first try to fix it diplomaticaly? I don't think so.

[Archon]

so 28 pages comming up and the main line of defense is still "sure you might have proof that we sent people over to spy on you but you can't prove that they actually did any spying". Doesn't that line of defense seem silly to anyone else? If you send spies to someone then you're attempting to spy, the ammount and quality of the information you get out of it isn't relevant.

TPF made a choice to send these spies over. After the karma war ended they still had the same people planted at the same place and still choose to keep quiet about the spying operation. That's where the "this was during the war so it's fine" line of defense fails.

Oh how I've missed you, m'dear.

[potato]

Well, considering the timeframe for this whole crap CB occured in the Karma War, the CB is just one of convenience. I know I won't sway the side looking for a free tech ride.. its the way things were in the Heg days as I remember most of you saying at the time... But it doesn't change the fact that this was out of nowhere as we were reaching out to some of you, MK, if not for a treaty but as a sign of mutual respect for your alliances. We had no grand design to bring down Rok and others, though there was a brief period where my friend Twist of PC was riding the wave of revenge and was in no way interested in letting the jackboot off of us while we were taking a beating and they were reaping casualties, land and tech . I see this war as one of convenience and where things are twisted to make us look like we are still being agressive. We were in no position to regain our position of strength and actually have no desire to be THAT type of alliance.

I will war if that is what I must do.. but I oppose the view the other side is portraying TPF.

Best of luck resolving this soon..

oo/TPF

And you had earned that respect. When I was LHE, you were on a short list (very short, I hate everyone) of alliances to think about when the thought of a treaty occurs. You threw that respect out by spitting at one of our closest allies' face.

[Triyun]

actually no. that clause is very rare. most are written as an attack on one signatory requires the other to aid them in defense. but very few, if any, nowadays are written as you stated.

wait, my tactic? what are you talkin about my tactic?

as for FAN/Vox- iirc, NPO and the others at war, actively sought out re-rolls of FAN nations, and Vox nations that re-rolled were also actively pursued. that is a far difference from the situation that TPF had, where they had peace terms on the table and chose to reject them.

it is not Karma's fault that TPF did not accept terms, that was a personal choice. FAN never got terms and Vox only got terms on a nation by nation basis with many not receiving terms at all. thus, Vox could not stay as a viable alliance in order to gain peace and FAN never got terms at all. thus again your point fails.

yet again, you miss the point that TPF could have used the diplomatic road and let Athens know about ZH and never once did TPF step forward to warn Athens. so why should TPF get this diplomatic treatment if they never once attempted the same for Athens. in fact, did TPF even attempt to talk to Athens about their war against NPO and attempt diplomacy to gain NPO peace or did they go straight for the spying/attempting to destroy Athens tactic?

it is amazing that you think that only Athens should have attempted diplomacy when it is quite clear that TPF never once considered it in their dealings with Athens.

FAN had peace terms from us also. Come out of peace mode and fight the war. These were very similar to peace terms that were offered for banking nations on hegemony's side of the war. It was a personal choice for FAN not to accept those terms. (yeah its a bad argument, but yours is equally ridiculous) As for nations we pursued.... that had something to do with the fact that their orders were to get a manhattan project as quickly as possible and nuke the !@#$ out of us.

I find it astounding that people are using tactics used in a previous war as justification for aggression six months after the conclusion of hostilities. Especially considering no information was exchanged. Furthermore, I find it hilarious that for all the cheering that went on during TWiP when the Continuum forums screen shots were being posted all over the forums by Vox, the very same people are outraged over the "spying" that has gone on here.

If ever one needed proof that Karma was a movement of pure real politik, this war proves it.

[Dochartaigh]

Well, considering the timeframe for this whole crap CB occured in the Karma War, the CB is just one of convenience. I know I won't sway the side looking for a free tech ride.. its the way things were in the Heg days as I remember most of you saying at the time... But it doesn't change the fact that this was out of nowhere as we were reaching out to some of you, MK, if not for a treaty but as a sign of mutual respect for your alliances. We had no grand design to bring down Rok and others, though there was a brief period where my friend Twist of PC was riding the wave of revenge and was in no way interested in letting the jackboot off of us while we were taking a beating and they were reaping casualties, land and tech . I see this war as one of convenience and where things are twisted to make us look like we are still being agressive. We were in no position to regain our position of strength and actually have no desire to be THAT type of alliance.

I will war if that is what I must do.. but I oppose the view the other side is portraying TPF.

Best of luck resolving this soon..

oo/TPF

yes because TPF choosing to stay in a state of war really matters? also, you guys keep ignoring the fact that mhawk, desperado, and others knew that ZH was attempting to spy and destroy Athens after the war concluded and never once did they come forward to warn Athens. if their hands were not involved in the matter as they keep saying, why would they not come forward? unless of course their hands were involved and they did not want that small tidbit to become known.

thus, your whole "it happened during a war" !@#$%^&* reasoning fails.

[Felix von Agnu]

so you never went to Athens about what ZH was going to do? why is that?

how is it justified? they were not at war with Athens and just because TPF stayed at war and Athens fought NPO, how are their actions justified in any way? with that sort of precedent in place, the allies of anyone at war is now susceptible regardless of their level of involvement in a war. shoot, Athens according to you could very well spy on your allies during this war and once this war is done with, and that spying is found out, your allies will not have a foot to stand on for a CB against Athens, since ya know, it was done during war-time.... i doubt that would happen though.

also, the actions that were to be undertaken would have taken longer than the war would have gone, since part of the actions were to merge into Athens and get into gov positions in order to destalibilize and destroy Athens. that could take months.

I have no obligations to Athens, that is why I did not say anything. I see no reason to be some tattle-tell on friends. I see how high you hold friends in regard now. I am glad I'm not your friend.

I'm not saying that Athens can spy on TPF's allies, unless those allies decide to jump into the war.

At the time, the thinking was that NPO was likely to be put into a state of prolonged war (one with no clear end in the foreseeable future), and if it did end, just disband ZH and rejoin TPF. Of course a few key members of ZH had that OOC falling out, so they stopped talking.

then there is that annoying little fact that TPF never came clean about this action and despite allegedly not being in contact with CH, would have known that the plan could very well have still been underway. yet TPF never once went to Athens about it, thus, allowing the actions to continue after the war was over.

Do you really believe this would have been the case? I think you may be a bit dizzy from all the spinning, but why would ZH help out people they had a falling out with?

[King Louis the II]

Ok, my curiosity is piqued.

Is intent to spy a valid CB?

Opinions welcome

It was not "attempt to spy" it was an attempt to destablize an AA by infiltrating it. Spying was secondary.

[potato]

You avoided my point, are really a war needed because a ideia 6 months old, where a failed attempt of spy occurred and when no information was obtained? Couldn't it be fixed diplomaticaly?

Why not? Too much Blood thirst?

No. Because... Actually, no. Reread the post you quoted. The answer is there.

[bigwoody]

It was not "attempt to spy" it was an attempt to destablize an AA by infiltrating it. Spying was secondary.

My question stands alone

[2burnt2eat]

This whole idea that these "casus bellis" can be stored away like monopoly cards to be played at a later date is getting ridiculous.

And it also appears that TPF is worth getting rolled for all this 'spying' nonsense, but not the 'spies' themselves. It's funny who gets the break here, but not TPF. Some diplomacy, or less old logs would've been nice.

Zero Hour sure got what they wanted, hopefully that animosity is satisfied now.

[junkahoolik]

tryun you forgot about some hypocrites who say that VOX didn't encourage spying, they just found it fun to make it public.

[iamthey]

i am not missing that point. they have no evidence that SF or CnG actively supported or even condoned the actions taken by FAN or Vox. thus, their points are invalid as TPF actively supported and condoned the actions that ZH were to undertake.

just because people find it amusing that Vox made the Tittler and TWiP does not mean they supported it. just that it was amusing. pretty sure no one jumped to Vox's defense when they were declared upon for spying so your point again is nullified.

Would they have participated in spying itself, no of course not; and no one is saying that. But the 'amused' demeanor or I'd really say admiration on the part of the 'karma' community reflects upon the underlying values of the people at the time. And to take that a bit further it was not 'just amusement', the karma war was framed as a war of liberation overthrowing the oppression of NPO and Q and 'giving them what they deserved'. Take a moment and look back at the opening days of the war, look at the ToS thread for NPO, and Echelon, the community was all but an accomplice to the movement Vox represented. Vox themselves disbanded stating that their existence was no longer required as the efforts of karma had fulfilled most of their opening goals, and beyond that if you look at the lead up to the war itself the OWF might as well have been run by Vox. To say that the community didn't condone or approve of what Vox did, or to say that those within Karma didn't consider themselves part of the movement to retake the community from NPO is patently false. That being said the point of inconsistency remains.

[Banksy]

You avoided my point, are really a war needed because a ideia 6 months old, where a failed attempt of spy occurred and when no information was obtained? Couldn't it be fixed diplomaticaly?

Being an incompetent spy does not excuse you from spying.

[the rebel]

actually no. that clause is very rare. most are written as an attack on one signatory requires the other to aid them in defense. but very few, if any, nowadays are written as you stated.

I only brought it up because it is worded how i stated in The Continuum. So to those saying they athens etc. was at war with TPF are technically right.

[Dochartaigh]

FAN had peace terms from us also. Come out of peace mode and fight the war. These were very similar to peace terms that were offered for banking nations on hegemony's side of the war. It was a personal choice for FAN not to accept those terms. (yeah its a bad argument, but yours is equally ridiculous) As for nations we pursued.... that had something to do with the fact that their orders were to get a manhattan project as quickly as possible and nuke the !@#$ out of us.

I find it astounding that people are using tactics used in a previous war as justification for aggression six months after the conclusion of hostilities. Especially considering no information was exchanged. Furthermore, I find it hilarious that for all the cheering that went on during TWiP when the Continuum forums screen shots were being posted all over the forums by Vox, the very same people are outraged over the "spying" that has gone on here.

If ever one needed proof that Karma was a movement of pure real politik, this war proves it.

how is my argument ridiculous? the terms for FAN was to be destroyed and suffer war for as long as NPO wanted..... that is nothing like the terms that TPF got.

i never once stated that ya'll did not have reason to pursue those nations, i know those reasons. i simply stated that what iamthey's argument of they could have simply re-rolled being false, since regardless of whether they would actually get MPs or not did not matter, since the threat was still there.

as for using a months old CB, i do remember 1V vs GATO and that old $@! CB that NPO foamed at the mouth to use. so how do you find it astounding?

as for no info being exchanged, so a failed spy attempt is okay now? hardly.

as for the "cheering" over TWiP- again no one said a thing when Vox was declared on for spying so you point is what exactly? oh that is right, you really do not have one. you are just attempting to use this to make your side look better or to make Karma seem worse than it is.

i love how the old Heg people keep spouting off at the mouth about things that Karma stood for that were never stated by Karma and has only been stated by the old Heg people.

[bigwoody]

Being an incompetent spy does not excuse you from spying.

Oh god, now I am rolling on the floor laughing. All of you are so precious.

Granted, I agree with you, but many others who will now say they agree with you would sing a different tune in a second if the shoe was reversed again.

Edited December 27, 2009 by bigwoody