Joint Announcement from NEW and ZDP

[bbrownso]

Let's be clear. I, Brandon Simonson, Grand Moff of the IAA, was the person JBone talked to privately. Yes, I am a higher government member of IAA but I've also been away lately and wasn't appraised of all the circumstances of the NEW situation until after I spoke with JBone. Furthermore, last I had heard, JBone was an Ember of TPF which, to my understanding, is essentially an adviser to the government of TPF. I was given no indication that our conversation was meant to be an official foreign affairs conversation between IAA gov and TPF gov and quite frankly, I'm a little angry that our conversation has been used in this manner to deflect criticism. In fact, I appraised JBone of my position and that, I'm essentially the equivalent of Minister of Interior Affairs, which should have been a clear signal that if he wanted to speak to a member of IAA gov formally, that I wasn't the one to speak to.

Depending on what happens in the next few hours, I may or may not release the full logs of our conversation last night.

That's everything I got to say right now.

[NoFish]

What shocks me was how simple this was. It is such a textbook example, such a common-sense situation which was completely blown out of proportion.

I never condone tech raiding and this is the essential reasoning as to why. What pisses me off is the world is against NEW for their raid, however, if ZDP possessed no treaties, people would begin the common ol' argument, "we consider an alliance of x amount of people as an alliance, thus, you're not considered an 'alliance' in our books", or better yet, no one would give a damn. This is the old stone vs spirit argument.

If you do not wish for !@#$ to hit the fan, don't tech raid alliances. 2, 3, 4 people, it doesn't matter. An alliance is an alliance, no matter the number. Saying otherwise is using your weight against something smaller to gain what you wish; which seventy-five percent of you !@#$%*ed at the hegemony and alliances like GGA in 06' for doing.

ZDP possesses no treaties, bro.

[Kilkenny]

It is good that NEW acknowledges their wrongdoings and is taking steps to rectify them. Good luck to both alliances.

And ZDP's mistakes??

[Kilkenny]

Excuse me for interrupting, but that's a straight lie. You may have spoken to someone tangentially involved in the situation (since no other Imperial was directly involved), but you most certainly did not speak to the one IAA member who had the facts, and was actually involved with the situation. Me.

Speaking with an Imperial who isn't aware of what's going on because he wasn't involved with the situation rather than the actual Emperor of IAA who knows precisely what the situation entails is a pretty large difference, don't you think?

I'm just curious, given that TPF was involed from the get go in the peace talks, why didn't you query someone in TPF?? Instead you jumped straight into negotiations with threats and posturing. Then you get upset that we didn't go and talk privately with you, after you, the johnny come lately, failed to do that yourself. you wonder why mhawk made sure everyone knew that we were standing by NEW?? psh.

[astronaut jones]

And ZDP's mistakes??

ZDP's only mistake was getting in a discussion that involved TPF and assuming that TPF and their allies would be bound by their word. That's the only mistake ZDP made.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

And ZDP's mistakes??

We believe the fact that, considering everything, we are still paying reparations to one of their nations speaks for itself.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to stir here.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Kilkenny]

We believe the fact that, considering everything, we are still paying reparations to one of their nations speaks for itself.

Not exactly sure what you are trying to stir here.

Actually the post I was quoting seemed to imply that only NEW made mistakes, the fact that you are also paying reps just demonstrates that errors were made on both sides.

AJ- i guess that is why they are paying reps huh.

[KahlanRahl]

I'm just curious, given that TPF was involed from the get go in the peace talks, why didn't you query someone in TPF?? Instead you jumped straight into negotiations with threats and posturing. Then you get upset that we didn't go and talk privately with you, after you, the johnny come lately, failed to do that yourself. you wonder why mhawk made sure everyone knew that we were standing by NEW?? psh.

Really... because I could have sworn TPF wasn't. Chim was not threatening or posturing anyone. Why would he go talk to you if you had nothing to do with it? Being an ally doesn't mean you have instant involvement in every single issue your ally has. If that were true nothing would get done. Chim was called in from the outside to mediate negotiations. Conversations were taken out of context, and a conversation between friends was used as an excuse to say you had spoken with an IAA member.

Let me refer to his post explaining said conversation, which you seem to have overlooked:

Let's be clear. I, Brandon Simonson, Grand Moff of the IAA, was the person JBone talked to privately. Yes, I am a higher government member of IAA but I've also been away lately and wasn't appraised of all the circumstances of the NEW situation until after I spoke with JBone. Furthermore, last I had heard, JBone was an Ember of TPF which, to my understanding, is essentially an adviser to the government of TPF. I was given no indication that our conversation was meant to be an official foreign affairs conversation between IAA gov and TPF gov and quite frankly, I'm a little angry that our conversation has been used in this manner to deflect criticism. In fact, I appraised JBone of my position and that, I'm essentially the equivalent of Minister of Interior Affairs, which should have been a clear signal that if he wanted to speak to a member of IAA gov formally, that I wasn't the one to speak to.

Depending on what happens in the next few hours, I may or may not release the full logs of our conversation last night.

That's everything I got to say right now.

[Kilkenny]

Really... because I could have sworn TPF wasn't. Chim was not threatening or posturing anyone. Why would he go talk to you if you had nothing to do with it? Being an ally doesn't mean you have instant involvement in every single issue your ally has. If that were true nothing would get done. Chim was called in from the outside to mediate negotiations. Conversations were taken out of context, and a conversation between friends was used as an excuse to say you had spoken with an IAA member.

Let me refer to his post explaining said conversation, which you seem to have overlooked:

Well, you shouldn't swear, esp when you are wrong. TPF was involved from teh begining. JBone adn Airikr, two of our FA team, were talking with ZDP, TOP and NEW from the begining. The fact that you failed to find out if anyone else was involved in negotiations, or that ZDP lied to you if they told you no-one was seems to be a problem from your end. Maybe you should either ask better questions next time you step into a situation like this, or (if lied to) get better friends. While we are not called in on every situation involving our allies, we were in this case, by TOP, due to the close nature of the relationship between TPF and NEW.

How about I refer you to this post to explain:

Myself and Jbone worked nearly all of the afternoon yesterday alongside TOP and with NEW, while Jbone communicated with ZDP, in an attempt to find a peaceful solution, it was Jbone whom talked NEW into the initial peace, where NEW peaced out the three wars. It was ZDP whom escalated when rogues from other alliances struck NEW, and peace was again broken. So don't even begin to say TPF hasn't tried to solve this diplomatically. We are still working that front, and hope that is how this ends, diplomatically. We were asked by TOP to try to intervene, and see if we could get NEW to have peace. To be quite honest, until mid-this afternoon, we had absolutely no idea the IAA was even involved, we thought we were working the diplomacy and peace front solo as far as mediating was concerned.

And telling someone to send peace now or else...is a threat.

Edit: if you still doubt that TPF was involved check this out.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Kilkenny

[Chimaera]

I'm just curious, given that TPF was involed from the get go in the peace talks, why didn't you query someone in TPF?? Instead you jumped straight into negotiations with threats and posturing. Then you get upset that we didn't go and talk privately with you, after you, the johnny come lately, failed to do that yourself. you wonder why mhawk made sure everyone knew that we were standing by NEW?? psh.

Had I known that TPF was involved in peace talks, I most certainly would have spoken to someone in TPF.

The fact that you knew IAA was involved, yet did nothing about it other than posting a thread which did even more damage to your ruined global reputation, is far more telling than any attack on my attempts at diplomacy.

Oh, and the fact that mhawk's rationale for the entire thread is based on edited, out-of-context logs is just absolutely hilarious.

So no, I'm not really upset that you didn't speak to IAA - it wasn't our reputation that was damaged by your inane posturing and threatening, and you certainly don't scare anyone with these sort of public threats.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Chimaera

[mhawk]

Had I known that TPF was involved in peace talks, I most certainly would have spoken to someone in TPF.

The fact that you knew IAA was involved, yet did nothing about it other than posting a thread which did even more damage to your ruined global reputation, is far more telling than any attack on my attempts at diplomacy.

Oh, and the fact that mhawk's rationale for the entire thread is based on edited, out-of-context logs is just absolutely hilarious.

So no, I'm not really upset that you didn't speak to IAA - it wasn't our reputation that was damaged by your inane posturing and threatening, and you certainly don't scare anyone with these sort of public threats.

My basis is off of talks with many alliance leaders, some of your friends/allies and later some logs from ZDP. There was ZERO editing of the logs, and I made it pretty clear that what I was posting was quotes. The "out of context" part is put back into context of all your friends warning me about your intentions. Further I don't see how posting that we would defend our allies could in any way "damage" your reputation. Any time an aliance's name is mentioned doesn't damage the reputation, there are many that would likely have lauded a potential attack on NEW for idealistic anti tech raid reasoning. Our goal was to prevent war and buy time, which given multiple talks with various leaders the clock appeared it would soon run out before update.

The whole -- more damage to your ruined global reputation-- line is pretty cute too. How about we start a new little meme Friends > PR. There was no war, good enough in my book.

Edited December 17, 2009 by mhawk

[JBone]

just speaking with a member of IAA clears you of nothing, you actually have to talk to a ranking gov member and attempt to resolve the situation, not just shoot the breeze with a member, even if the topic is the current situation.

Is it only Chim that ranks in your government?

Go away.

Let's be clear. I, Brandon Simonson, Grand Moff of the IAA, was the person JBone talked to privately. Yes, I am a higher government member of IAA but I've also been away lately and wasn't appraised of all the circumstances of the NEW situation until after I spoke with JBone. Furthermore, last I had heard, JBone was an Ember of TPF which, to my understanding, is essentially an adviser to the government of TPF. I was given no indication that our conversation was meant to be an official foreign affairs conversation between IAA gov and TPF gov and quite frankly, I'm a little angry that our conversation has been used in this manner to deflect criticism. In fact, I appraised JBone of my position and that, I'm essentially the equivalent of Minister of Interior Affairs, which should have been a clear signal that if he wanted to speak to a member of IAA gov formally, that I wasn't the one to speak to.

Depending on what happens in the next few hours, I may or may not release the full logs of our conversation last night.

That's everything I got to say right now.

Let's indeed be clear.

In our conversation I specifically said:

06[18:21] <JBone[TPF]> pass that along to Chim and VooDoo.

06[18:22] <JBone[TPF]> then feel free to pass that tidbit along

to which you replied:

[18:23] <bbrownso[iAA]> I'll attribute it to a little birdy

So, did I come to you meaning it to be an official foreign affairs conversation between IAA gov and TPF gov, no....but from our conversation I was certainly under the impression that you would let your superiors know about our chat.

The only way I used our conversation was to correct some of IAAs more vocal members, repeating the inaccurate statement that no one from TPF had spoken with anyone from IAA....and Chim when he said I outright lied. Not as a means to embarrass you or anyone else from IAA.

If you feel the need to post the full logs, I understand, and have no issue with that, just have the courtesy to edit out the OOC and personal information they contain.

ZDP's only mistake was getting in a discussion that involved TPF and assuming that TPF and their allies would be bound by their word. That's the only mistake ZDP made.

Actually I would like to think that my conversations with ZDP, both during and after this incident, were quite helpful in resolving this to the satisfaction of the involved parties.....that, by the way, does not include you.

Really... because I could have sworn TPF wasn't. Chim was not threatening or posturing anyone. Why would he go talk to you if you had nothing to do with it? Being an ally doesn't mean you have instant involvement in every single issue your ally has. If that were true nothing would get done. Chim was called in from the outside to mediate negotiations. Conversations were taken out of context, and a conversation between friends was used as an excuse to say you had spoken with an IAA member.

Let me refer to his post explaining said conversation, which you seem to have overlooked:

Actually we were involved from the begining, or shortly afterwards. Who called in Chim anyway? One would think that the caller would have let him know TPF was working on it as well....no?

Feel free to ask Brandon for the logs. Nothing out of context, no excuses.

Had I known that TPF was involved in peace talks, I most certainly would have spoken to someone in TPF.

The fact that you knew IAA was involved, yet did nothing about it other than posting a thread which did even more damage to your ruined global reputation, is far more telling than any attack on my attempts at diplomacy.

Oh, and the fact that mhawk's rationale for the entire thread is based on edited, out-of-context logs is just absolutely hilarious.

So no, I'm not really upset that you didn't speak to IAA - it wasn't our reputation that was damaged by your inane posturing and threatening, and you certainly don't scare anyone with these sort of public threats.

In retrospect, I wish you knew we were involved in peace talks as well.....it would have saved some time and some bruised feelings. The question is, why didn't you know?

[Penkala]

Several other individuals and alliances become involved, rumors swirl, and mhawk uses the most rapid and effective mode of communication available to clarify our stance on the matter, just in case anyone was confused.

Seems fairly reasonable to me.

Please don't insult our intelligence. The post obviously wasn't to correct the world's "confusion". For one, the world wasn't "confused", and if they were they could have asked. Secondly, if it had just been an attempt to avoid confusion, he would have said "we stand by our allies" instead of trying to distort the facts, gather people on his side and slander IAA. I know you think you're clever and that all us plebes are going to buy whatever you say, but it's not going to fly. Mhawk's comments were brash and nearly contributed to a massive war.

[Khalai Protoss]

Was hoping for war...but on the other hand, glad that you to were able to resolve this simply.

[rsoxbronco1]

When I have something important to discuss with a foreign gov, I always look for their Minister of Internal Affairs.

[Penkala]

Actually the post I was quoting seemed to imply that only NEW made mistakes, the fact that you are also paying reps just demonstrates that errors were made on both sides.

AJ- i guess that is why they are paying reps huh.

Do you really want to play this game? I mean, really want to play this game? Stop taking little snippets of fact and distorting them so that their real indication (which is bad for NEW) somehow appears to be bad for ZDP. Do I need to tell everyone why NEW needed token reps paid to them, or do you want to drop it and admit that the reps are no indication of fault by ZDP? Then again, you could be ignorant of the facts of this incident and just making that assumption on the reps yourself, but I always took you as someone 'in the know' in TPF.

Was hoping for war...but on the other hand, glad that you to were able to resolve this simply

Yeah, now I'm getting a little angry this didn't go to war as well. NEW seems to have learned something from this, TPF. Stop trying to insinuate that any of this is the fault of ZDP or IAA, because none of it is. And stop spewing this BS like you always seem to do. Nobody is going to buy it.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Penkala

[OneBallMan]

ZDP's only mistake was getting in a discussion that involved TPF and assuming that TPF and their allies would be bound by their word. That's the only mistake ZDP made.

Find me something we haven't kept our word on el pacfique? No really. Heck this situation, love us or hate us, is precisely that, we keep our word. We will defend our allies, to the full extent of our measure. I know, I know, your heart was broken at some point, and TPF did something bad....

Let it further be said, flower breath, that I am of the personal opinion that NEW were the parties that escalated this situation and caused the peaking of tensions. That said, we defend them, as is our word, and would have died for them.

Passive aggression is the lamest.

[JBone]

When I have something important to discuss with a foreign gov, I always look for their Minister of Internal Affairs.

Brilliant!

Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

You never use back channels? Ever ?

Please don't insult our intelligence. The post obviously wasn't to correct the world's "confusion". For one, the world wasn't "confused", and if they were they could have asked. Secondly, if it had just been an attempt to avoid confusion, he would have said "we stand by our allies" instead of trying to distort the facts, gather people on his side and slander IAA. I know you think you're clever and that all us plebes are going to buy whatever you say, but it's not going to fly. Mhawk's comments were brash and nearly contributed to a massive war.

Insult was not my intent.

Maybe you were not confused but many were...and they all did start asking, hence the OWF post. It's a pretty simple concept actually.

Distort, gather sides, slander.....perhaps you were confused.

Mhawks statement, while direct, just may have averted a massive war.

Anyway, it's a done deal and I think ZDP made some new friends in the end....works for me.

[Vijaya]

All I can say here is good on ZDP.

[Penkala]

Brilliant!

Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

You never use back channels? Ever ?

Insult was not my intent.

Maybe you were not confused but many were...and they all did start asking, hence the OWF post. It's a pretty simple concept actually.

Distort, gather sides, slander.....perhaps you were confused.

Mhawks statement, while direct, just may have averted a massive war.

Anyway, it's a done deal and I think ZDP made some new friends in the end....works for me.

No, simply put there's no room for opinion on this - Mhawk's comment very nearly started a war in which your alliance would have been stomped. I know what happened. I know what people were thinking. It went from something likely to be resolved at worst with ZDP going full nuclear on NEW to the very real possibility of a big war (albeit a curbstomp). It is only because of the willingness of ZDP to negotiate that such a war was averted. Consider yourselves lucky.

And everybody knew where TPF stood on the issue, so no, I'm not going to buy that massive load of BS that the post was made to "clarify [TPF]'s stance". It was done to try to "poison the waters" of the public and quickly get people on your side with a massively lopsided OP ("THEY HAVE A LANGUAGE BARRIER BUT MEAN OLD ZDP ATTACKED ANYWAYS ;_;"), but it failed when the logs were brought out. If you're going to lie about the purpose of that thread, you're going to have to do a lot better than that.

I concur about ZDP and their friends, however.

Brilliant!

Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

You never use back channels? Ever ?

Keep dancing, Jbone. He didn't say that and I know that you know that. Don't even respond if you're just going to try to sidestep everything on your way out the door. You go to an FA guy if you have a problem. You don't go to an IA guy. It's CN 101 and TPF knows it. He called your attempt to claim that as a government contact ludicrous, and I agree, it's a weak attempt. If you wanted to REALLY discuss things you'd go to Chim. I know that and you know that.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Penkala

[Kilkenny]

Do you really want to play this game? I mean, really want to play this game? Stop taking little snippets of fact and distorting them so that their real indication (which is bad for NEW) somehow appears to be bad for ZDP. Do I need to tell everyone why NEW needed token reps paid to them, or do you want to drop it and admit that the reps are no indication of fault by ZDP? Then again, you could be ignorant of the facts of this incident and just making that assumption on the reps yourself, but I always took you as someone 'in the know' in TPF.

Given that ZDP admitted they made mistakes in this, as did NEW, deflates this. Never was trying to say it was all on ZDP, but was responding to a quote from someone who was saying it was all NEW's fault. Fault was there all around.

Chim- thanks for the confirmation that you rushed in without finding out all the details. Maybe next time ask that question??

[Penkala]

Given that ZDP admitted they made mistakes in this, as did NEW, deflates this. Never was trying to say it was all on ZDP, but was responding to a quote from someone who was saying it was all NEW's fault. Fault was there all around.

Chim- thanks for the confirmation that you rushed in without finding out all the details. Maybe next time ask that question??

What exactly were ZDP's faults then? Do list them (numbered so I can keep track of all of their atrocities please!).

P.S. the reps were issued to NEW because NEW feared a revolt within their membership because they'd be giving up something with nothing in return. Essentially, they're in such an internally precarious position that they feared a coup over this. The reps were a token offering by ZDP to help NEW out. You painting the reps as admission of guilt for ZDP when it was something they did to help your allies is a pretty big jerk move.

[mhawk]

No, simply put there's no room for opinion on this - Mhawk's comment very nearly started a war in which your alliance would have been stomped. I know what happened. I know what people were thinking. It went from something likely to be resolved at worst with ZDP going full nuclear on NEW to the very real possibility of a big war (albeit a curbstomp). It is only because of the willingness of ZDP to negotiate that such a war was averted. Consider yourselves lucky.

So let me get this straight. You're claiming that no one was going to hit NEW for any reason, thus making my post unnecessary and faux pas. However once I stated we would defend NEW if they were attacked, that was all the reason you and others (you allude to curbstomp which would require quite a bit to wipe out most of white sphere) needed for a war? Quite interesting, I was not aware there was a censorship bloc willing to use such comments as "we'll defend our allies" as CB for "massive wars."

So who was going to hit us that we should feel lucky didn't?

[Penkala]

So let me get this straight. You're claiming that no one was going to hit NEW for any reason, thus making my post unnecessary and faux pas. However once I stated we would defend NEW if they were attacked, that was all the reason you and others (you allude to curbstomp which would require quite a bit to wipe out most of white sphere) needed for a war? Quite interesting, I was not aware there was a censorship bloc willing to use such comments as "we'll defend our allies" as CB for "massive wars."

So who was going to hit us that we should feel lucky didn't?

Yes, I am saying that it went from IAA helping achieve a peaceful resolution to IAA feeling offended after your call out and the possibility of them deciding to go to war went from very small to very large. It's nothing about "censorship"; if you call someone out there's a chance they'll call your bluff and attack your @#$%. Would they have? Maybe, maybe not. But would one of the other alliances eyeing the situation have decided to roll instead if they hadn't? Pretty damn likely.

And don't you worry about who would have been on what sides, mhawk. That's really no concern of yours. Just know that ZDP knew the numbers, and they had no reason to negotiate other than out of a desire to not see the conflict widen. They wouldn't have lost.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Penkala

[mhawk]

Yes, I am saying that it went from IAA helping achieve a peaceful resolution to IAA feeling offended after your call out and the possibility of them deciding to go to war went from very small to very large. It's nothing about "censorship"; if you call someone out there's a chance they'll call your bluff and attack your @#$%. Would they have? Maybe, maybe not. But would one of the other alliances eyeing the situation have decided to roll instead if they hadn't? Pretty damn likely.

And don't you worry about who would have been on what sides, mhawk. That's really no concern of yours. Just know that ZDP knew the numbers, and they had no reason to negotiate other than out of a desire to not see the conflict widen. They wouldn't have lost.

Your post most clearly demonstrates exactly why I posted our stance so all would know the consequence of hitting NEW. I'm glad now you're saying there was talks of going to war, the last few topics have said that was never even considered by you guys. Glad your stories are starting to line up with what we were told.