Howdy IAA and ZDP

[medtech]

I don't really have any questions but thanks for the offer. I'd like to stop by and general shens when I get the chance. I liked talking to the Athens crew during the war.

Our door is always open

[Roadie]

TPF hasnt said anything to ZDP..and we are the ones at war..so either they are REALLY good ad being soft powered..or you are makin stuff up

TPF was speaking with it's involved ally and some of ZDPs friends. Made decent ground until it got excelated.

[AirMe]

You know what, I'm tired of this defense. Every time threads with "What do you hate most about CN" pop up, I always forget about this particular phrase, but I won't forget now.

It's a tired, unoriginal defense. Even intelligent people use it, and that's what mostly bothers me about it.

If they're making an implication that's ludicrous, just say why it's such a ludicrous implication. If they really are "wearing tinfoil hats" do you really think you're going to convince them by saying "lololol your hat is made of tinfoil, I'm so witty XD!"

Ok let me rephrase.

Dear Sir, I doubt the logical progression that you used to come to your conclusion. I can only assume that you have no grasp of the situation and only made your statement to slanderize IAA. Could you please direct me to the events, facts and evidence that you used to forumlate you thesis.

My think tank and I await the receipt of said materials so we may have a gander and either confirm or debunk your conclusion.

Thank you for your time.

tl;dr My tinfoil hat comment was much more entertaining.

EDIT: I wasn't defending anyone, I was calling him a crackpot for making such an outlandish connection.

Edited December 16, 2009 by AirMe

[Tarikmo]

And here I thought Bob was getting boring...

B)

You grab the popcorn, I'll make the movie!

[Kilkenny]

Doesn't really help your efforts to single out an alliance who has 1 member join in defense, who wasnt even in gov, all the while conveniently omitting....other...similar...occurrences.

Haven't been ignored, you might say it was the straw that broke the camels back..esp when he also attacked another treaty partner on the way to battle NEW.

Voldorish-- I suggest you ask around, TPF has been talking to ZDP. from the get go we have been involved.

[astronaut jones]

The issue is while trying to negotiate peace and resolve this, members of gov and other members of alliacnes supposedly trying to help resolve things are joining ZDP and attacking NEW. Doesn't help matters. Everytime it seems it is resolved something like this happens and sets things back, thus the post by mhawk to let everyone know at once where we stand on this issue.

Once a member leaves an alliance, regardless of their position, what they do from then on does not affect the alliance they left in any way. You think it does, because you're trying to make this into something bigger than it is, when really it would have been all over if NEW would have said "my bad" and paid the reps.

Mhawk effectively went rogue during the karma war, and he's still leading TPF. So, if you really want to apply your logic, please apply it to everyone.

[Keve69]

To recap (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. NEW launches a series of raids on ZDP.

2. ZDP gets annoyed and verbally/militarily fights back.

3. IAA attempts to help resolve the issue diplomatically.

4. ???

5. TPF makes threats at IAA of a military nature.

Ah ha.

Gunboat diplomacy tends to work better when you've got a boat (read: argument) that isn't full of holes. Just a quick thought there.

OH YOU!

Dont try to bring ''logic'' and ''facts'' into this.... pffff

[Augustus Autumn]

Thinking before speaking is not a common practice in some areas of Planet Bob. You really should be more sensitive to other cultures :/

Ah, yes, how gauche of me. Consider my standards duly lowered in light of this wonderful display of public ineptitude and failed moral outrage that qualifies as a discussion in this hallowed forum.

[TheListener]

Ok let me rephrase.

Dear Sir, I doubt the logical progression that you used to come to your conclusion. I can only assume that you have no grasp of the situation and only made your statement to slanderize IAA. Could you please direct me to the events, facts and evidence that you used to forumlate you thesis.

My think tank and I await the receipt of said materials so we may have a gander and either confirm or debunk your conclusion.

Thank you for your time.

tl;dr My tinfoil hat comment was much more entertaining.

Sorry AirMe, but this comment was definitely much more entertaining, but that may be due to the fact that I read it in an awesome sarcastic tone...

[ChimpMasterFlash]

I for one, hope this spirals out of control.

Everybody involved is a wild and crazy guy. I hope this turns out as hilarious as possible!

This man is the hero of our time.

Its clear IAA just wants some lulz. Lets hope this goes to full out war for fun!

GOONS

Agreed 100%, headaches are averted by just banning the practice

ROBOFAIL! Chimp says "Two thumbs down"

Oh come on now Chimmy... You know IAA wants a war. It would spice things up on Planet Bob.

impossible

Screw peace, attack dammit.

:swoon:

Time to rally the troops to arms!

Also, what was the point of this thread again?

basically this

[Chimaera]

The issue is while trying to negotiate peace and resolve this, members of gov and other members of alliacnes supposedly trying to help resolve things are joining ZDP and attacking NEW. Doesn't help matters. Everytime it seems it is resolved something like this happens and sets things back, thus the post by mhawk to let everyone know at once where we stand on this issue.

I like the cut of your jib. You clearly know precisely what you are talking about, and everyone should stop talking and pay attention to you.

For the record, we've already gone over Reaper's departure from IAA.

Point 1 - he wasn't a member of Imperial government.

Point 2 - he is close personal friends with numerous members of ZDP.

Point 3 - while we do appreciate the effort TPF is making to goad the Empire into war, you will find we are harder to win over than that. Indeed, you may have already noticed that instead of taking offense to your alliance's attempted smearing of ours, we are simply enjoying the publicity.

[Earogema]

This isn't the only time we've been called a "rogue alliance." From the start we've been considered rogues, when we've done nothing to be considered such.

Didn't you attack an alliance before you were even formed?

I mean, if that isn't being rogue, (and I would know, did it for 10 months ) then I don't know what is. I mean, if you have really cleaned up like it seems then that's cool. However you've done something to be considered rogue.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Earogema

[Tarikmo]

Haven't been ignored, you might say it was the straw that broke the camels back..esp when he also attacked another treaty partner on the way to battle NEW.

Voldorish-- I suggest you ask around, TPF has been talking to ZDP. from the get go we have been involved.

Good sir, you have a title, and it is a warmonger of TPF. Please do your part more accordingly!

[AirMe]

Sorry AirMe, but this comment was definitely much more entertaining, but that may be due to the fact that I read it in an awesome sarcastic tone...

Don't forget to tilt your head up like you are wearing a top hat and monocle and speak with a bad british accent.

[Mathias]

No. TPF has spent most of it's time trying to resolve this matter diplomatically and quietly. The quiet part wasn't working. I wouldn't characterize this as gunboat diplomacy. More like a louder version of soft power.

This reminds me of the timeless adage "If at first you don't succeed, hurl baseless accusations for the masses to enjoy."

[Earogema]

Ok let me rephrase.

Dear Sir, I doubt the logical progression that you used to come to your conclusion. I can only assume that you have no grasp of the situation and only made your statement to slanderize IAA. Could you please direct me to the events, facts and evidence that you used to forumlate you thesis.

My think tank and I await the receipt of said materials so we may have a gander and either confirm or debunk your conclusion.

Thank you for your time.

tl;dr My tinfoil hat comment was much more entertaining.

EDIT: I wasn't defending anyone, I was calling him a crackpot for making such an outlandish connection.

I liked this better actually.

[Facade]

This reminds me of the timeless adage "If at first you don't succeed, hurl baseless accusations for the masses to enjoy."

But the masses are so easily entertained.

[The FSM]

Ah, yes, how gauche of me. Consider my standards duly lowered in light of this wonderful display of public ineptitude and failed moral outrage that qualifies as a discussion in this hallowed forum.

Excellent, I am overjoyed that I been able to persuasively re-align your moral and intellectual standards to better reflect those of the population of Planet Bob at large.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Interesting take, Mhawk. I take it you have seen the logs and are trying to preventively spin the facts here. We were waiting for NEW's response to our peace offer before posting anything; they have asked for 24 hours and still have 7 hours to go. Since you took the liberty to preemptively frame the debate, as their ally, we will correct a few points and provide clear logs.

OOC: English not being their first language can hardly be used as an excuse in this case: we spoke with their MoFA who has a more than correct mastery of the English language. Also, I am not a native English speaker myself. I'd like to note that the time of the logs are EST (CN+1).

------

As anyone can see here, the first raid was launched by yoyoabc on Brother Kane in the early morning of the 14th of December.

As such, as we woke up, we went to NEW to ask for peace and token reparations. We talked with Aming (OOC: who was OP in their IRC chan and OPs are gov't) but found out he was only a founding member and currently held no government position. A minute later, Sangar (their MoFA) joined us in discussing a peaceful resolution. At that point, I asked Aming if he could leave the room since he was being, in our eyes, counter-productive. Logs leading to that go as follow:

03[11:13] * sangar[NEW] (XXXX@XXXX) has joined #zdp

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> hahahaha i understand

01[11:14] <Yevgeni> Now, Sanger, I was just informed by AMING here (codename: bro) that you are gov't. Am I right?

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> better for ZDP find protectorate bro

01[11:14] <Yevgeni> Sangar, pardon.

[11:14] <sangar[NEW]> yes i am

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> yes he is gov

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> but becareful

[11:14] <sangar[NEW]> ssup?

01[11:14] <Yevgeni> May I know what is your official gov't position?

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> he is maniak

[11:14] <AMING[NEW]> he like butt very much

[11:14] <sangar[NEW]> patih amancanegara

[11:15] <Brother-Kane> All I'm asking for is reparations for the damages done by yoyoabc

[11:15] <Brother-Kane> It's against my morals to allow someone to profit at my expense

[11:15] <sangar[NEW]> it's MOFA for you

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> Ah, good.

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> Yep, BK put it in a more succinct way.

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> One of your guys decided to raid us.

01[11:15] <Yevgeni> We don't put up with raiders.

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> It was in NEW that attacked me during the VA war.

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> I'm guessing he did it for old times' sake.

[11:16] <AMING[NEW]> VA?

[11:16] <AMING[NEW]> what is that?

01[11:16] <Yevgeni> Veritas Aequitas

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> I was at war with VA two months ago, and your alliance backed them up.

[11:16] <Brother-Kane> yoyoabc is the guy who attacked me

[11:16] <AMING[NEW]> you raid VA?

[11:17] <Brother-Kane> No

[11:17] <Brother-Kane> It was an actual war

01[11:17] <Yevgeni> Aming, assuming you're not gov't nor useful, do you mind leaving?

[11:17] <AMING[NEW]> yevgeni your statement make me filing not good

[11:18] <AMING[NEW]> you ask me to came here

[11:18] <AMING[NEW]> and i try to help

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> Assuming you were gov't.

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> As it says in your chan.

[11:18] <AMING[NEW]> yes i am

[11:18] <sangar[NEW]> well AMING[NEW] may not in this govt, but think he belongs here

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> Fine.

I may not have used an appropriate language and I will easily recognize that. Nonetheless, we thought the matter was settled as Sangar insisted that he should stay and we agreed.

For Aming, it wasn't, it seems. He would continue to dwell on that.

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> Fine.

[11:18] <sangar[NEW]> since you're invite him here

01[11:18] <Yevgeni> So, to cut things short, one of your guys has decided to raid Brother-Kane.

[11:19] <sangar[NEW]> link pls

[11:19] <Brother-Kane> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=105213

[11:19] <Brother-Kane> http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...ation_ID=158121

01[11:19] <Yevgeni> We do not appreciate it at all, especially since we're just out of a war (as of yesterday) and we demand reps.

[11:19] <AMING[NEW]> i know yoyo very much since he is my real life friend. your statement make me fill not good

[11:19] <Brother-Kane> Why is that?

[11:19] <AMING[NEW]> not you bk

[11:19] <AMING[NEW]> but yevgeni

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> i am out

01[11:21] <Yevgeni> Ciao.

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> i cannot help anymore

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> for sure no reps will be paid

[11:21] <sangar[NEW]> well

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> i promise

[11:21] <AMING[NEW]> alltough i am not gov

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> if you dont like just attack yoyo with nuke i think he will enjoy it

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> good luck

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> sangar we go out

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> npw

[11:22] <AMING[NEW]> now

03[11:22] * AMING[NEW] (XXXX@XXXX) has left #zdp

As such, we were back with Sangar to discuss about that single raid on Brother Kane. Here are the logs of the rest of the discussion. I bolded the parts we find as relevant.

01[11:22] <Yevgeni> So, Sangar, what's your word?

[11:22] <sangar[NEW]> first

[11:23] <sangar[NEW]> this is nothing todo or related with VA war as your assuming

[11:23] <Brother-Kane> No, I know it's not

[11:23] <sangar[NEW]> it's simply a raid

[11:23] <sangar[NEW]> 2x GA and PO

[11:24] <Brother-Kane> Yes, and I'm asking for reparations for that since we are an independent alliance. If we allow raids to go off without a problem it will invite others.

[11:24] <Brother-Kane> I'm not asking for a large amount of money, just enough to cover the cost.

[11:24] <sangar[NEW]> but i don't think i can make it happens

[11:25] <sangar[NEW]> you are an independent alliance

01[11:26] <Yevgeni> You do understand that, barring reparations, this "tech raid" will become a week long war between yoyoabc and BK.

01[11:26] <Yevgeni> Exact?

[11:26] <sangar[NEW]> that would be fine as long as you'll keep it that way

[11:27] <sangar[NEW]> no one will intervere

[11:27] <Brother-Kane> Sounds good.

01[11:27] <Yevgeni> We're fine with it, then.

[11:27] <Brother-Kane> I'll talk directly to yoyoabc before I retaliate to see if he will agree to reparations.

[11:27] <Brother-Kane> But if he refuses then I will fight back

[11:29] <sangar[NEW]> but i have to tell you that an alliance bellow 10 is a legal raid target in NEW

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Well, we probably would be more than 10 if we wouldn't get raided every day of the week.

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Especially right when we're just out of a war against GOONS, NpO and MK.

[11:30] <sangar[NEW]> maybe

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Also, while your level is at 10

01[11:30] <Yevgeni> Others will raid us even if we're 20 or 25

[11:30] <sangar[NEW]> well just like aming say bedore : you should have arelation or a protector

01[11:31] <Yevgeni> We have good relations with a handful of alliances.

01[11:31] <Yevgeni> We just don't believe in treaties.

[11:31] <sangar[NEW]> if you have a relation

[11:31] <sangar[NEW]> you should tell us

[11:32] <sangar[NEW]> or put it in you nation bio

[11:32] <sangar[NEW]> it's a common

01[11:33] <Yevgeni> Yes and no. Just understand that, should you decide to escalate things further, we will not be alone.

[11:33] <sangar[NEW]> hey

[11:33] <sangar[NEW]> it's just a raid

[11:33] <sangar[NEW]> you're the one who escalating things here

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> I'm not.

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> I'm pointing things out.

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> don't turn it up side down

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> and we can't pay reps

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> for a legal raid target

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> Yeah, we got that already. BK will retaliate on yoyo anyway.

01[11:34] <Yevgeni> So yoyo will have made zero profit. Which suits us fine.

[11:34] <sangar[NEW]> at my point of view it is you who escalating things

01[11:35] <Yevgeni> By doing what?

[11:35] <sangar[NEW]> by emanding reps

01[11:35] <Yevgeni> Are you serious?

[11:35] <Brother-Kane> Demanding reparations isn't escalating things, it's the opposite.

[11:36] <Brother-Kane> We can avoid hundreds of millions of dollars in damages with only a bit of technology

[11:36] <sangar[NEW]> no, demanding reps its fine if the raid is illegal

01[11:36] <Yevgeni> An escalation, considering your member declared war on one of ours, would be to retaliate en masse or make it nuclear without trying diplomacy.

[11:36] <Brother-Kane> I consider it illegal

01[11:36] <Yevgeni> It's illegal by your own standards. Understand that your charter isn't international law.

01[11:36] <Yevgeni> legal*

01[11:37] <Yevgeni> To us, the legality of your tech raid isn't important. We would ask for reparations anyway.

[11:37] <sangar[NEW]> no one charter is international law

01[11:38] <Yevgeni> Then the legalist argument cannot stand.

[11:39] <sangar[NEW]> so be it

01[11:40] <Yevgeni> In short, we agree that this war will be maintained a mano-a-mano fight between BK and yoyoabc, right?

[11:41] <sangar[NEW]> in that case, yeah....

01[11:41] <Yevgeni> Good. In that case, good day to you.

[11:41] <sangar[NEW]> we're just doing a raid, that's all

[11:42] <sangar[NEW]> Salute!

01[11:42] <Yevgeni> I really can't see why you would refuse to settle this with reps considering it will be much more costly for you now.

01[11:42] <Yevgeni> But sure, salute!

In our (OOC: PB time) time, that means we had reached an agreement to keep the fight to a 1v1 by 10:42. I think everyone can agree, here, that Sangar knew full well what we meant. Heck, he even said it himself: "we will not intervene".

However, barely thirty minutes later, NEW would break their word as another member, Aming, would declare on Brother Kane at 11:15. Again, it is easy to verify.

We then went to speak with Sangar but he was absent. We proceeded to talk to gantaX, their acting Prime Minister and Sangar's superior as we understood it.

Here are the logs of that discussion:

Session Start: Mon Dec 14 12:26:53 2009

Session Ident: gantanX

01[12:26] <Yevgeni> Present?

[12:27] <gantanX> hello

[12:27] <gantanX> yes, i am here

[12:27] <gantanX> how can i help you mate ?

01[12:27] <Yevgeni> Just to clarify, what is your position in NEW?

[12:27] <gantanX> i am mahapatih

[12:27] <gantanX> it's prime minister

01[12:28] <Yevgeni> Excellent.

01[12:28] <Yevgeni> Sangar just logged off at a very unfortunate moment, it seems.

[12:28] <gantanX> yes, it is almost 1.oo a.m here

01[12:28] <Yevgeni> About 45 minutes ago, next to an hour, we started negotiations with Sangar.

01[12:29] <Yevgeni> One of your members, yoyoabc, decided to raid one of our members, Brother-Kane. We hail from the Zombie Defense Plan.

01[12:29] <Yevgeni> Naturally, we came to Sangar and demanded reps. Mostly symbolic ones, to cover for the losses incurred by 2 GAs on BK.

[12:29] <gantanX> yes, i just notice that too

[12:29] <gantanX> i see

01[12:29] <Yevgeni> We were told that no reps would be given.

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> But that BK could fight yoyoabc with all tools at his disposal and that the fight wouldn't be interrupted. That it would be kept a 1v1.

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> That you guys wouldn't intervene at all.

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> (We've got the logs if you want them.)

01[12:30] <Yevgeni> Now, barely 20 minutes after that, it seems that yoyoabc's friend, Aming, has declared on Brother-Kane as well.

[12:31] <gantanX> well, i just read the chat log

[12:32] <gantanX> i believe that is true mate

[12:32] <gantanX> yoyoabc was raiding on BK and per NEW rules

[12:32] <gantanX> we wont pay any reps to any valid raid target per our standard

[12:32] <gantanX>

01[12:32] <Yevgeni> The absence of reparations isn't the problem.

[12:32] <gantanX> however BK have his right to fully retaliate to the raider

01[12:32] <Yevgeni> We were assured by your MoFA

01[12:33] <Yevgeni> That the fight would be kept a gentlemen's affair: a one on one business between yoyoabc and Brother-Kane.

01[12:33] <Yevgeni> Or, Aming has just declared war against Brother-Kane.

01[12:33] <Yevgeni> (Scratch that "or", put "however" )

[12:35] <gantanX> idk what sangAr mean by not intervering, however i believe AMING is "also" raiding BK,

[12:35] <gantanX> i will ask sangAr for more detail as soon as he's online

01[12:35] <Yevgeni> Well, no !@#$ that "he's also raiding".

01[12:35] <Yevgeni> He's helping his teammate.

01[12:36] <Yevgeni> Not intervening is pretty straight forward.

[12:36] <gantanX> well, from my point of view, AMING and yoyoabc was just raiding BK..and it is legal per NEW charter

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> Yoyoabc was indeed raiding BK

[12:37] <gantanX> like i said, BK has the right to fully retaliate even with nukes

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> We negotiated with Sangar

[12:37] <gantanX> however we wont pay any reps on behalf of yoyoabc and AMING

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> Sangar promised that no intervention would happen

[12:37] <gantanX> or you may negotiate personally with yoyoabc for the reps

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> THEN Aming declared war.

01[12:37] <Yevgeni> Therefore intervening

01[12:38] <Yevgeni> Therefore not respecting Sangar's word at all.

[12:38] <gantanX> like i said AMING was just raiding not launching a full scale attack on BK, maybe that's what sangAr mean by intervening ( a full scale of attack)

01[12:38] <Yevgeni> Rofl.

01[12:39] <Yevgeni> This is ridiculous.

[12:39] <gantanX> ridiculous ??

01[12:40] <Yevgeni> Indeed. You're trying to spin "not intervening". It's probably the most straight forward concept on this bloody game.

01[12:40] <Yevgeni> No offense but that's quite something.

[12:43] <gantanX> yes, but sangAr is not here atm, so i assume when he said by not intervening it mean not launching a full sclae attack on BK..

[12:43] <gantanX> i'll contact him for more details when he;s online

01[12:44] <Yevgeni> I believe the logs clearly show that I stated, on more than one occasion, that it meant keeping the war limited to a 1v1.

01[12:44] <Yevgeni> I said it three times at least and he agreed every time.

[12:46] <gantanX> did sangAr said clearly that it will be a 1 vs 1 fight between yoyoabc and BK ?

01[12:46] <Yevgeni> Yes, read the logs!

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:26] <Yevgeni> You do understand that, barring reparations, this "tech raid" will become a week long war between yoyoabc and BK.

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:26] <Yevgeni> Exact?

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:26] <sangar[NEW]> that would be fine as long as you'll keep it that way

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> [11:27] <sangar[NEW]> no one will intervere

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> 11:26 my time = 10:26 for the game.

01[12:47] <Yevgeni> Which means near a full hour before Aming actually declared war.

[12:48] <gantanX> well, reading the logs i dont see that sangAr said that it will be 1 vs 1 fight between yoyoabc and bK

01[12:48] <Yevgeni> I just pointed them out to you.

[12:52] <gantanX> yes, i know but i dont sangAr said that no one will raid BK too

[12:52] <gantanX> because like i said per our rules, ZDP is a valid raid target, and you have the right to fully retaliate

01[12:52] <Yevgeni> No one will intervene?

01[12:53] <Yevgeni> What the bloody hell is an intervention, then?

[12:53] <gantanX> i did expalain to you maybe what sangAr mean by no one intervene was : "no one will launch a full scale attack on BK"

01[12:53] <Yevgeni> If not a declaration of war on BK. Just because you call it a tech raid doesn't change the fact that Aming did intervene and is helping his friend.

[12:53] <gantanX> AMING was just raiding. it's up to BK to peace him out or not

01[12:53] <Yevgeni> Is that your official position, for real?

[12:54] <gantanX> well, you could always ask BK to peace out AMING and keep the war between him and yoyo

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> ...

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> Wow.

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> I've heard it all.

01[12:54] <Yevgeni> Fine, we'll contact you later on, I need a pause from that.

[12:55] <gantanX> yes, as long as ZDP is our valid raid target we cant prevent our member not to raid ZDP

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Oh btw

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Aming just spied on BK

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Destroyed 10M of his cash reserves

01[13:09] <Yevgeni> Still a raid?

[13:13] <gantanX|sleep> i am sorry i was just about to sleep

[13:13] <gantanX|sleep> about the spy i just noticed that too

01[13:14] <Yevgeni> Still a raid and not an intervention?

[13:14] <gantanX|sleep> i will disscuss this matter and assure that we will deal with AMING internally

01[13:14] <Yevgeni> Not enough for us.

[13:14] <gantanX|sleep> what do you want then ?

01[13:15] <Yevgeni> His attack will have to be ceased. Reps will have to be paid, evidently, and the 1v1 war between BK and yoyoabc be allowed to go on.

01[13:15] <Yevgeni> Really undisturbed this time.

[13:17] <gantanX|sleep> i am sorry i cant promise you that...

[13:17] <gantanX|sleep> btw, really man, it's 1. am here, can i contact you tommorow ?

01[13:17] <Yevgeni> Considered that you people reneged on your own word in less than 20 mins, doing two unprovoked attacks on us...

01[13:17] <Yevgeni> I believe we're being really reasonable.

01[13:18] <Yevgeni> Sure you can.

[13:18] <gantanX|sleep> ok thank you ..

01[13:18] <Yevgeni> But we will have to take measures until then.

[13:18] <gantanX|sleep> goodluck and HF

01[13:18] <Yevgeni> To limit the damage.

Session Close: Mon Dec 14 13:33:48 2009

gantaX, as can be seen, tried to spin it not once but twice: first by saying that Sangar, when he agreed that NEW wouldn't intervene, meant "wouldn't intervene with full scale attacks". Second by saying that Aming's attack wasn't an intervention but a second raid on Brother Kane.

Considering Aming had also used spy operations to destroy the monetary reserves of Brother Kane, as can be seen here, gantaX' interpretation cannot stand: Aming was fully intervening on the behalf of his friend and ally and it wasn't a raid.

But we weren't done. Before we did anything, another NEW member would declare on Brother Kane. This time it was "Sweet Chin".

Considering that we had been lied to, that reparations were out of the window (see gantaX logs) and that those attacks were clearly not raids (the use of spy operations), we decided we would support our member Brother Kane by attacking his raiders.

Jaymay15 declared on the three attackers, in support of Brother Kane. We felt it was a perfectly legitimate response to their behaviour.

It was then that NEW chose again to escalate this into a full blown war. gantaX (OOC: who had just logged on) decided to retaliate on Jaymay. The timeline of the attacks can be seen by anyone. Considering that, we authorized our members to fully retaliate on NEW. Still, we concentrated almost all of our attacks on the "first offenders", the three pseudo raiders.

Early this morning, we approached NEW and tried to reach a peaceful resolution. We feel we have been very reasonable through this whole affair.

We tried peace. They refused it.

We took them on their word. They broke it.

We kept our retaliation measures to their raiders. They escalated it by adding more warriors to the battle.

Our peace offer goes as follow:

Immediate white peace for all belligerents and a sum of 18 millions to be paid to Brother Kane for the two spy operations launched by Aming against him.

NEW still has seven hours to give us their official response.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Kilkenny]

Once a member leaves an alliance, regardless of their position, what they do from then on does not affect the alliance they left in any way. You think it does, because you're trying to make this into something bigger than it is, when really it would have been all over if NEW would have said "my bad" and paid the reps.

Mhawk effectively went rogue during the karma war, and he's still leading TPF. So, if you really want to apply your logic, please apply it to everyone.

Not exactly sure what you are saying here. you mean if Mhawk left TPF and went to NEW it would cause no problems?? or JBone?? of course it would, just like those who have left their alliances to join ZDP have caused problems. if they would not have left their alliances things could possibly have been resolved, but we will never know.

And not sure what you mean by mhawk, he didn't go rogue, he left, then came back at the rest of the alliances request, he didn't go rogue.

[Hayzell]

I hope that this conflict is resolved amicably. Good luck to both sides.

[Keve69]

Im not reading that.... but you got moar logs, so your obviously right! I support thee!

[ChimpMasterFlash]

rumor has it there will be war at Update.

[mhawk]

Let me add a few notes to this topic.

What you describe as peaceful negotiations, I found to be riddled with threats (Ironically this type of stuff, "if you don't do this, we're going to make you this months athens"... which I found amusing for personal reasons ) combined with several alliances coming to me to note that this issue is likely to result in some form of war in the near future. I found the conversations taunting as opposed to respectful, especially given some issues our friends have with our particular language. The threats to take this to the owf and bash them would likely have been pretty bad for them, once again considering the language barrier. I figured we might as well go ahead and put the situation out there without all the "you double crossed us and are full of lies" banter. ZDP has legit reasons for being upset, NEW certainly likely realizes it was a bad raid. The purpose of this thread is not to threaten, but to assist our friends in communicating their desire for peace, which I fired was about to be deeply hidden under an organized smear campaign on the owf.

-- PS, guys leave athens and pez alone please. Lets focus on being good friends to NEW for the moment.

Edited December 16, 2009 by mhawk

[Chimaera]

No. TPF has spent most of it's time trying to resolve this matter diplomatically and quietly. The quiet part wasn't working. I wouldn't characterize this as gunboat diplomacy. More like a louder version of soft power.

Excuse me? Did you just come out and say this was an attempt to threaten IAA? Glad you're admitting it.

For the record, TPF has clearly not spent any time trying to resolve the matter diplomatically, considering your leader called my alliance out as warmongers without taking the time to actually get his facts straight or talk to anyone within the Empire.