Augustus Autumn Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 It's right at the moment when Londo loses his cool (again) and goes off yelling (again) that these discussions become amusing. Not really sure when the local mud pit had a "moral high ground" sign planted in front of it but someone's not being terribly observant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 You can draw whatever conclusions you want, I merely told you what that "distasteful" post was about and saved you the trouble of reading what you replied to. Oh I read what I replied to, but you still haven't answered my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyber Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I agree with GnOxious Jr. There is nothing wrong with the way Athens is paying reps. When paying reps you figure out the most efficient manner to do it, and not wasting their aid slots makes perfect sense while they funnel aid from people that owe them reps to people they owe reps to. If KoN wanted the reps to come directly from Athens, they should have specified in the reps discussions. I do disagree with Lebubu's assertion that it was simply people with agendas that had a problem with Athen's actions. Some people had a major problem with the line for tech raiding now being moved up to 40 man alliances. NpO is not in the most secure position in the web, their strong ties to CnG means they are heavily dependent on CnG should any war come their way, with weak ties beyond that except for Rok in SF, and no ties to the other side of the web in Citadel, they risked a lot for their morals, and gained little, so may I ask what agenda your ally had in speaking up for what they believed in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebubu Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) A tech raid doesn't involve organized strikes on an alliance. It actually does - raids are hard to come by and Athens is not the first alliance to fill as many slots of the raided alliance as it can or to use fire teams. I can't imagine what else you could be referring to when you say organized strikes so I'll leave it at that. That they pushed it and damaged a functioning community is another story and was already covered. Actually, everything was covered already and this thread should only be about Bilrow counting alone. I do disagree with Lebubu's assertion that it was simply people with agendas that had a problem with Athen's actions I didn't claim this, I was only referring to the content of this particular thread. edit: a little more clarity never hurts Edited December 2, 2009 by lebubu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 It actually does - raids are hard to come by and Athens is not the first alliance to fill as many slots of the raided alliance as it can or to use fire teams. I can't imagine what else you could be referring to when you say organized strikes so I'll leave it at that. That they pushed it and damaged a functioning community is another story and was already covered. Actually, everything was covered already and this thread should only be about Bilrow counting alone. I didn't claim this, I was only referring to the content of this particular thread. edit: a little more clarity never hurts So if raids continue to become hard to find are you ok with raising the bar to alliances with 100 members? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebubu Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 So if raids continue to become hard to find are you ok with raising the bar to alliances with 100 members? I think everyone here (including the raiders) is in agreement that Athens and FoB made a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 If the funds are owned by the "criminal," then regardless of the delivery method, they are being paid for by the "criminal" to the aggrieved party. Would it be too presumptions to proclaim that you, Gn0xious Jr, you are a scholar amongst geniuses? Seriously, I agree with the quoted statement above 1023910372916329%. The fact of the matter is that the money is being allocated to the same place. Instead of effectively slowing down the process by wasting foreign aid slots, it takes the reparations already being paid by Pacifica and redirecting them to Kingdom of Ni!. It's the same exact thing as NPO giving the equivalent amount of reparations to Athens and then Athens sending those reparations to Kingdom of Ni!. It's far more efficient to just cut out the middleman. Why do you think 3x3 tech deals are so popular? It's instant gratification and it works a helluva lot better. Get off your high horse everyone... we can see up your skirts, and it's not flattering. This kind of stuff is nothing new, but we all try to find that one alliance to !@#$%* and moan about and since we can't rag on NPO for all of the world's problems, we find a new person who makes a mistake. Glad to see we have made such a progressive change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iotupa Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 I'm not discussing Athens/NPO as this was not the case for them. I was trying to have a more general discussion around the idea that someone forward funds they own, from one location to another.Let's say Bill owes me $20 for a bet he lost, and I owe Frank $20 because I broke his front door hinge. If Bill tells me he's going over to Franks, and I say "oh, that reminds me, can you give him the $20 you owe me to pay for his door hinge?" what exactly is wrong with the method? If the funds are owned by the "criminal," then regardless of the delivery method, they are being paid for by the "criminal" to the aggrieved party. The point of reparations is not to be convenient to the criminal. You don't learn a lesson about your criminal act if you don't actually suffer any hardship whatsoever for your actions. I agree with GnOxious Jr. There is nothing wrong with the way Athens is paying reps. When paying reps you figure out the most efficient manner to do it, and not wasting their aid slots makes perfect sense while they funnel aid from people that owe them reps to people they owe reps to. If KoN wanted the reps to come directly from Athens, they should have specified in the reps discussions.I do disagree with Lebubu's assertion that it was simply people with agendas that had a problem with Athen's actions. Some people had a major problem with the line for tech raiding now being moved up to 40 man alliances. NpO is not in the most secure position in the web, their strong ties to CnG means they are heavily dependent on CnG should any war come their way, with weak ties beyond that except for Rok in SF, and no ties to the other side of the web in Citadel, they risked a lot for their morals, and gained little, so may I ask what agenda your ally had in speaking up for what they believed in? Well, Athens has already said they will be using their own nations to pay the reparations, so I don't see anything wrong with the way they are paying either. When you pay reparations, as I have said numerous times in this thread, it is not suppose to be convenient for the criminal, in this case Athens. The criminal should be forced to use its own resources to pay the reparations, not use someone other person's resources to do it, so that it creates some amount of hardship so that a lesson is learned by the criminal party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 This gives me an idea. 2 Days and NPO Still Sucking At Logic And PR, And Whining About Irrelevant Matters (i hear saying it bigger makes people listen better) I think it's been just a little bit more then 2 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iotupa Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Would it be too presumptions to proclaim that you, Gn0xious Jr, you are a scholar amongst geniuses? Seriously, I agree with the quoted statement above 1023910372916329%. The fact of the matter is that the money is being allocated to the same place. Instead of effectively slowing down the process by wasting foreign aid slots, it takes the reparations already being paid by Pacifica and redirecting them to Kingdom of Ni!. It's the same exact thing as NPO giving the equivalent amount of reparations to Athens and then Athens sending those reparations to Kingdom of Ni!. It's far more efficient to just cut out the middleman. Why do you think 3x3 tech deals are so popular? It's instant gratification and it works a helluva lot better. Get off your high horse everyone... we can see up your skirts, and it's not flattering. This kind of stuff is nothing new, but we all try to find that one alliance to !@#$%* and moan about and since we can't rag on NPO for all of the world's problems, we find a new person who makes a mistake. Glad to see we have made such a progressive change. It is not the same thing. In your scenario, which isn't happening because Athens has already said it will be using its own nations to pay the reparations, Athens would not use any of their nations to pay the reparations, therefore making it so they are not learning a lesson for their criminal act. Also, I don't wear a skirt, and the fact that this ISN'T new and IS something NPO would have done and been called out for is all the more reason for people to call Athens out. You don't get a free pass simply because you exacted your revenge on the formerly guilty party on top. People who truly believe in their principles and moral stances don't care who is committing the injustice, they will fight just as hard whether it is friend or foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Would it be too presumptions to proclaim that you, Gn0xious Jr, you are a scholar amongst geniuses? Seriously, I agree with the quoted statement above 1023910372916329%. The fact of the matter is that the money is being allocated to the same place. Instead of effectively slowing down the process by wasting foreign aid slots, it takes the reparations already being paid by Pacifica and redirecting them to Kingdom of Ni!. It's the same exact thing as NPO giving the equivalent amount of reparations to Athens and then Athens sending those reparations to Kingdom of Ni!. It's far more efficient to just cut out the middleman. Why do you think 3x3 tech deals are so popular? It's instant gratification and it works a helluva lot better. Get off your high horse everyone... we can see up your skirts, and it's not flattering. This kind of stuff is nothing new, but we all try to find that one alliance to !@#$%* and moan about and since we can't rag on NPO for all of the world's problems, we find a new person who makes a mistake. Glad to see we have made such a progressive change. Do the surrender terms NPO is under even allow them to pay KoFN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Well, Athens has already said they will be using their own nations to pay the reparations, so I don't see anything wrong with the way they are paying either. When you pay reparations, as I have said numerous times in this thread, it is not suppose to be convenient for the criminal, in this case Athens. The criminal should be forced to use its own resources to pay the reparations, not use someone other person's resources to do it, so that it creates some amount of hardship so that a lesson is learned by the criminal party. That's the thing. It's not convenient for Athens because they lose out on a portion of their reparations ordered from NPO. They lose money because of it. That is hardly convenient. However, if Athens said they'd use their own nations to pay the reparations (which I apparently missed), it does seem a tad off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Do the surrender terms NPO is under even allow them to pay KoFN? Good question actually. I kind of forgot about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iotupa Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 That's the thing. It's not convenient for Athens because they lose out on a portion of their reparations ordered from NPO. They lose money because of it. That is hardly convenient. However, if Athens said they'd use their own nations to pay the reparations (which I apparently missed), it does seem a tad off. It is far more convenient to lose money you never had than to be forced to use your own nation and miss out on tech deals and aid programs you could have been completing in the time you were paying your reparations for your criminal act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator Hades Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Listen here pal. We don't "owe" reparations to anyone. We decided quite on our own that we would make restitution to KoFN as an alliance. The individual nations, well we tech raid individual nations. And we don't pay reps for those kind of raids. The reason we decided to pay reps to KoFN is that it became clear to us after talking to them that they have an actual community, and aren't completely dead as an alliance internally. That's the only reason that we are shelling out reps. We didn't do it because of pressure from the international community. We decided to pay KoFN reps, as an alliance, because it seemed to be the right thing to do to us. Not because we stole tech from *GASP* innocent nations - any raider does that. But because we realized we had brought an unwelcome disruption to the normal function of their community. So we are paying reps to that community, and will do so under the direction of the leader of that community - who told me that the Ni! banking system would take care of the smaller members anyway. You can rant and rave all you like, but it's not going to influence our actions one damned bit. We are paying KoFN reps because of our own moral compass. We will repay the alliance on our mutual terms - not on your ideas of what we should do. The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business, and shrilly yapping that "it is your business" and you will stand up for the rights of the "unjustly abused" is a load of horse manure. If KoFN were being unjustly abused, they'd be posting about it here, or at least talking to their allies, who would be posting about it here. Guess what? They aren't. Athens isn't a pack of evil monsters, just because we tech raid from time to time, or just because we happened to tech raid Ni! We are an alliance that made an error in judgment about a community, and that is all. Those who know us and know our full history know that we are an honorable bunch with a strong sense of right and wrong. And no matter what you try to paint us as so desperately, no matter how much !@#$ you fling at us in the hopes that some will stick and people will start to despise us, we will still be who we are. I don't care what most of you think of us. What matters to me, and to us, is who we really are. Not what people think we are.To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life. My god..Its Prodigal Chieftain !!!!, welcome back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) It is far more convenient to lose money you never had than to be forced to use your own nation and miss out on tech deals and aid programs you could have been completing in the time you were paying your reparations for your criminal act. Eh, it yields the same end result. Perhaps our views on the process differ. It seems that you focus more on the process whereas I focus on the end-result, which neither are without its merits and faults. So right there we cannot fundamentally agree in that regard. Though I do feel that criminals should be punished through inconvenience, but further demonizing Athens for a mistake they already gave in to is a bit much. Yea, maybe they admitted guilt because of foreign pressure, but they admitted fault. Are they being a tad slow with their reparations? Yea, but as it's been stated, KoFN has been inactive in responding to them. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt with that in mind, but I am just overly trusting [OOC: It gets abused irl, but !@#$ happens, amirite?]. OOC: Clarity and punctuation is always a great combination. Edited December 2, 2009 by SpacingOutMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gn0xious Jr Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) It is far more convenient to lose money you never had than to be forced to use your own nation and miss out on tech deals and aid programs you could have been completing in the time you were paying your reparations for your criminal act. I would agree that it is far more convenient when the aggrieved party is simply asking for an amount. For Example If you say, "pay me $150,000,000 in reps," and it is agreed upon, the "criminal" will get you the money any way they see fit. If the aggrieved party wants reps to be more harsh on the "criminal" then it needs to be included in the terms. If you say, "pay me $150,000,000 in reps in $3,000,000 increments over the next 10 cycles using ONLY your own aid slots" and it is agreed upon, then the "criminal" had better damn well honor that request per the terms. Unless payment terms are specified, the "criminal" can pay the reps from where ever they have them stashed. Edit: Again to clarify - this is a general observation of my own, of some of the topics raised in this discussion and does NOT relate to the Athens/KoN situation specifically. Edited December 2, 2009 by Gn0xious Jr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime minister Johns Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Actions speak louder than words, Athens may talk the talk, And now the perfect time to demonstrate that they also walk the walk. The public attention here could be used to either improve their image or damage it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) You do realize that anyone who is remotely competent could organize A->B->C with the exact same slot efficiency of A->C correct? Edited December 2, 2009 by Delta1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qazzian Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) Do the surrender terms NPO is under even allow them to pay KoFN? No, they don't. We are not allowed to send any aid packages to any other alliance except a ) Karma alliances who demaded reps or b ) NPO nations so long as it is only cash being sent. *Edited to fix unintentional emoticon for b ) (B) ) Edited December 2, 2009 by Qazzian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime minister Johns Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 No, they don't. We are not allowed to send any aid packages to any other alliance except a ) Karma alliances who demaded reps or b ) NPO nations so long as it is only cash being sent.*Edited to fix unintentional emoticon for b ) (B) ) Well there is a great idea, NPO -> Athens middle man -> KoN. No terms get broken and everyone gets their cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qazzian Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Aaaaand I've been informed that reps HAVE been diverted, provided the alliance in Karma agrees. Well then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 This gives me an idea. 2 Days and NPO Still Sucking At Logic And PR, And Whining About Irrelevant Matters (i hear saying it bigger makes people listen better) Just two days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James I Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Aaaaand I've been informed that reps HAVE been diverted, provided the alliance in Karma agrees.Well then. I'm quite sure you've been misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 You do realize that anyone who is remotely competent could organize A->B->C with the exact same slot efficiency of A->C correct? Unfortunately most people fall widely short of being "remotely competent" in terms of CN economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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