Do platipi have balls?

[shahenshah]

It's already been established that the answer to your question is "N."

Ah yes, I just read it and was going to edit. Nvm now.

[Blacky]

After all the belly aching about NPO crushing anyone they liked at the drop of a hat this made me laugh. The consensus pre and post karma war apparently was people wanted to see an end to the alliances at the top throwing their weight around for little to no good reason. Now that Pacifica aren't smashing anyone they desire you are trying to get someone else to take over the job.

I have an idea, let NPO out of terms let H reform and let them smash anyone they like. Is that what you want?

I agree with this fully.

TOP's actions were commendable. They sought to diffuse a potentially explosive situation. In most cases (at least in the upper tiers) reparations serve as a gesture of good will. ie; we didn't sanction these attacks and we hold no ill-will towards your alliance. Here, take some cash/tech. If anything, what has been highlighted here is the irresponsibleness of Kronos in dealing with these rogue attacks. Good show TOP/STA.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Blacky

[astronaut jones]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but how much cash, technology, infrastructure and land did the siberian tiger alliance SAVE due to the kronos nations occupying the rogue's defending war slots?

That is, those 3 nations that could have been STA nations taking damage, but were instead kronos nations? How much did STA save by not having to send 3 nations against those rogues while kronos members occupied their slots?

Edited November 23, 2009 by astronaut jones

[enderland]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but how much cash, technology, infrastructure and land did the siberian tiger alliance SAVE due to the kronos nations occupying the rogue's defending war slots?

That is, those 3 nations that could have been STA nations taking damage, but were instead kronos nations? How much did STA save by not having to send 3 nations against those rogues?

Heracles had, iirc, 16 nukes when an act of god took him from us.

16/2.5 = just over 5 nukes or so that STA likely would have taken, depending on the overall luck of SDIs. Figure in that he had nearly 4k tech or so, it's about 280 damage to land/infra, and 90 or so to tech.

Plus CMs/air/ground damages, as well as the expenses those hitting him would have taken.

[Tick1]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but how much cash, technology, infrastructure and land did the siberian tiger alliance SAVE due to the kronos nations occupying the rogue's defending war slots?

That is, those 3 nations that could have been STA nations taking damage, but were instead kronos nations? How much did STA save by not having to send 3 nations against those rogues while kronos members occupied their slots?

It's principle AJ, saving money has nothing to do with the issue in my opinion. STA is an alliance who vouched to protect all members from rogues, raiders and other alliances. Kronos taking those slots away deprived them of their duty.

What's life without something to live for?

Edit: Grammar

Edited November 23, 2009 by Tick1

[astronaut jones]

It's principal AJ, saving money has nothing to do with the issue in my opinion. STA is an alliance who vouched to protect all members from rogues raiders and other alliances. Kronos taking those slots away deprived them of their duty.

What's life without something to live for?

I understand it is principle, as I was merely playing devil's advocate. That being said, it is something to atleast consider during the discussion about reparations and the like. I'm not claiming one side is more just than the other, or one side has more of a right to their point of view on the matter than the other, all I am attempting to do is bring people to a common ground.

Sometimes playing devil's advocate is the only way to do so.

[Jyrinx]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but how much cash, technology, infrastructure and land did the siberian tiger alliance SAVE due to the kronos nations occupying the rogue's defending war slots?

That is, those 3 nations that could have been STA nations taking damage, but were instead kronos nations? How much did STA save by not having to send 3 nations against those rogues while kronos members occupied their slots?

The issue is that we wanted to divert nukes from Tyga. Kronos seems to think that Heracles would've nuked our members if we filled in his defensive slots. That would've been good as it would have diverted damage away from Tyga and spread damage towards other STA nations.

More importantly though is that we want slots to help defend our member. When 3 Athens nations went rogue at roughly the same time on Skippy, we declined assistance form Athens and filled the slots ourselves. It's somewhat the principle of the thing; STA wishes to defend her own. Even beyond the principle, limiting damage to Tyga and spreading damage around (via using up the nuclear stockpile) would've been preferable to Tyga taking the bulk of the damage.

I'm glad to see the rhetoric has become more respectable and civil on both sides. The original posturing was bizarre, but understandable: STA and Kronos members love their alliances and will stand up for it. Admirable indeed. We should go back to private discussions now as was always the plan and not drag out a private matter between two alliances onto the OWF.

Just my 2 cents.

[freedomfight3r]

OP: We get it. You're out of 6th grade for Thanksgiving and you thought you'd try and stir up some trouble. Just stfu and sit in the corner.

[astronaut jones]

Heracles had, iirc, 16 nukes when an act of god took him from us.

16/2.5 = just over 5 nukes or so that STA likely would have taken, depending on the overall luck of SDIs. Figure in that he had nearly 4k tech or so, it's about 280 damage to land/infra, and 90 or so to tech.

Plus CMs/air/ground damages, as well as the expenses those hitting him would have taken.

So it may be safe to say that they did indeed save atleast a little something. While it may not be right, nor may it necessarily be wrong of what kronos has been accused of doing by the STA, the STA did not suffer as much damage as they would have otherwise, which may be something to take into consideration.

[astronaut jones]

The issue is that we wanted to divert nukes from Tyga. Kronos seems to think that Heracles would've nuked our members if we filled in his defensive slots. That would've been good as it would have diverted damage away from Tyga and spread damage towards other STA nations.

More importantly though is that we want slots to help defend our member. When 3 Athens nations went rogue at roughly the same time on Skippy, we declined assistance form Athens and filled the slots ourselves. It's somewhat the principle of the thing; STA wishes to defend her own. Even beyond the principle, limiting damage to Tyga and spreading damage around (via using up the nuclear stockpile) would've been preferable to Tyga taking the bulk of the damage.

I'm glad to see the rhetoric has become more respectable and civil on both sides. The original posturing was bizarre, but understandable: STA and Kronos members love their alliances and will stand up for it. Admirable indeed. We should go back to private discussions now as was always the plan and not drag out a private matter between two alliances onto the OWF.

Just my 2 cents.

Ahh, I understand the want to divert unnecessary damage away from your leader, and you should have had the right to do so. Though it may not be in a pacifist's best interest, what is done is done, and I concur with you that everyone who wishes to, should have the right to defend their own.

So, on the flipside of my playing devil's advocate, do you have any idea how much more damage tygaland took, in a best case and worst case scenario, that may have been diverted away from him if STA was able to fill the rogues' defensive war slots like you had wanted to?

[enderland]

It's principle AJ, saving money has nothing to do with the issue in my opinion. STA is an alliance who vouched to protect all members from rogues, raiders and other alliances. Kronos taking those slots away deprived them of their duty.

What's life without something to live for?

Edit: Grammar

I would imagine if STA felt strongly about this, Kronos could peace out against ptricky and they could instead take the nukes he's issuing to Kronos members.

[bzelger]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for a moment, but how much cash, technology, infrastructure and land did the siberian tiger alliance SAVE due to the kronos nations occupying the rogue's defending war slots?

That is, those 3 nations that could have been STA nations taking damage, but were instead kronos nations? How much did STA save by not having to send 3 nations against those rogues while kronos members occupied their slots?

Heracles had 20 nukes to start and a WRC (but no HNMS), so for a single round of war he would have effectively had 32 nukes, assuming 50% spy odds and 2 spy slots for 6 days it's more like 26, operating at 40% efficiency vs SDIs means the STA would have eaten approximately 10 nukes. Subtracting the six Tyga got anyway, I'd say 4 extra nukes if Heracles went all out. Plus, of course, aircraft and CM damage.

Since we're dealing in hypotheticals, that's significantly less than the damage we could have eaten due to lack of stagger (although it also neglects the additional rounds of war implied by a successful stagger). More immediately important is that the situation allowed Heracles to focus entirely on Tyga, whereas we would have vastly preferred to dilute the damage across our nations.

Ahh, I understand the want to divert unnecessary damage away from your leader, and you should have had the right to do so. Though it may not be in a pacifist's best interest, what is done is done, and I concur with you that everyone who wishes to, should have the right to defend their own.

So, on the flipside of my playing devil's advocate, do you have any idea how much more damage tygaland took, in a best case and worst case scenario, that may have been diverted away from him if STA was able to fill the rogues' defensive war slots like you had wanted to?

Assuming Heracles gave everyone equal attention, if my above math is correct then 6 - 10/4 = ~3.5 fewer nukes that Tyga would have received. Also we would recover some of that through ground attacks until Heracles started turtling.

Edited November 23, 2009 by bzelger

[Masterof9puppets]

Put it this way, several gov of Kronos have attacked us. Surely you don't mind me feeling even just a little bit suspicious there

Several implies more than two gov members.

This is not the case, as first of all, at the time of the rogues declaration none of them were .gov, as they had already resigned. Second of all, only one of them was .gov immediately before resigning (Heracles); White Majik had been .gov more than a month prior. Third, there were only two rogue nations.

To put your statement correctly, one .gov of Kronos resigned and went rogue on Tyga, and one general membership nation of Kronos resigned and went rogue on Tyga.

You know damn well what he meant. Two leaders of Kronos quit and go rogue on the STA one after the other with their war slots filled. Plus another Kronos member runs a spy op on an STA member scouting them out for another rogue hit. A little too much to believe it to be a series of coincidences. Less so when they clearly worked with the first rogue to ensure the STA would not get any war slots to defend our member.

As for back room politics, if alliances involved and their allies want to settle an issue privately then I see no problem with that.

Again, one leader. One Ancient (General membership).

With White Majik, there was only one nation from Kronos that had declared on him. As Majik stated previously in this topic, he told no one of his plans.

Also previously said, Kronos declared upon and anarchied Ptricky (the one who launched the spy op) before he could declare on STA. Kronos is currently eating nukes from Ptricky.

And instead of assuming the STA is absolutely wrong you should ask yourself how your alliance would react to myself and Uhtred going rogue and attacking Valhalla with STA members filling war slots followed by Pezstar running spy ops on Chefjoe while carrying the STA alliance affiliation. I have a fair idea how it would be construed. You really aren't putting a great deal of thought into this.

As for why they went rogue on the STA, because we disagreed over Valhalla's peace terms from the Karma War.

Well, we've already seen how STA would handle it if it were reversed: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry1960686

Some of you lot are conveniently missing the reason for this all blowing up. The fact that after a week of this roguery coming from one alliance which had prefilled the rogue slots then the cycle started all over again. Same thing, Kronos members going rogue wuth prefilled slots. And only then did STA draw a line in the sand.

But that's unreasonable isn't it? They should just sit back and watch almost 20% of an alliance go rogue on them inside a matter of days and hey who cares that their slots are always prefilled by nations who intially did no discernible damage worth talking about but then suddenly discovered an urge to increase the damage to about 40% of what Tyga was inflicting on this out of control rogue AFTER a report was made about slot filling.

None of that matters. All that matters is that an alliance with a sudden 20% rogue rate is obviously stable and reasonable and that STA is obviously unreasonable for declining to accept a second round of the same.

2 members =/= 20% of an alliance going rogue on STA.

The nations attacking Heracles and White Majik have been doing full attacks from the start.

Down to 33 members from 42 when this started a week ago. And THAT'S a fact not an opinion. Membership down 21% in a week with rogues in abundance. But that's no sign of instability and irrationality is it.

It was actually just four rogues, and only two against STA.

[Banksy]

Oh man... this thread got out of hand. Guys- chilax.

[pezstar]

Well, we've already seen how STA would handle it if it were reversed: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry1960686

That's completely ridiculous. STA's complaint there was not with being asked to clear that slot. It was with the way in which we were asked to do so.

[Anu Drake]

He would also like to state that he has a steel pair and thinks all this fuss is much better handled in private between the good people of Kronos, STA and TOP.

[Masterof9puppets]

That's completely ridiculous. STA's complaint there was not with being asked to clear that slot. It was with the way in which we were asked to do so.

Reasonable as it pertains to this situation is clearly subjective. You were polite and easy to deal with. Your request that we ask our member to stop attacking was reasonable. Your follow up statement that our failure to call off the tech raider would result in IRON holding us responsible for your nation's losses was not reasonable.

I'm not too sure of the difference in situations...

[pezstar]

I'm not too sure of the difference in situations...

Here was my request to your alliance for a slot on the Heracles:

01[13:23] <pezstar> Is there any chance that one of your folks would be willing to offer peace so that we can get a slot?

[13:23] <Porkers|Kronos> Or, even his nation name/ruler name?

01[13:23] <pezstar> His nation name is Ancient Greece. His ruler name is Heracles the Great

[13:24] <Porkers|Kronos> I'll see what I can do, but people are pretty pissed at him.

01[13:24] <pezstar> I understand.

01[13:24] <pezstar> You folks are doing full out attacks and spies and whatnot?

[13:25] <Porkers|Kronos> If he nukes, we'll nuke. Spies are a given. They'll do Air/CM/GA etc.

01[13:26] <pezstar> Awesome. While we'd like a slot, we certainly understand if you want to attack him yourself because of the crap he's caused you. As long as you're kicking his $@! the best you can, we're cool with it.

[13:26] <Porkers|Kronos>

01[13:26] <pezstar> From what I know of Kronos, you enjoy kicking $@!, so why not.

[13:32] <Porkers|Kronos> Yeah, $@! is fun. Gotta run, enjoy your day/evening etc.

01[13:32] <pezstar> You too!

The request did not become more demanding until we believed that you were not doing as Porkers said you were. Clearly a difference here.

[Masterof9puppets]

Here was my request to your alliance for a slot on the Heracles:

The request did not become more demanding until we believed that you were not doing as Porkers said you were. Clearly a difference here.

We never stopped doing what Porkers said we were.

The situations just seem oddly similar to me, that is all.

[Ragashingo]

*hugs Ragashingo*

*Ragashingo is hugged*!?!

[King Louis the II]

It is fascinating to see how people like to create some gossip expecting it to lead to a war....

I think the discussion about the plural of platypus was more interesting...

By the way is there a plural for ornitorynchus?

[Poyplemonkeys]

Good sir, the only issue that matters is the issue of peace, if you do not raise the issue of peace, then the issues you do raise, do not matter. If you're giving advice on how to come to a peaceful solution, then by all means, your words carry more weight than most, but if you're only seeking to increase the tension, then your words carry about as much weight as a grain of rice in a giant's hand.

Then like I said before, please ignore them if they are of no interest to you rather than drawing me into something you have no intentions of actually discussing.

[Kzoppistan]

It is fascinating to see how people like to create some gossip expecting it to lead to a war....

I think the discussion about the plural of platypus was more interesting...

By the way is there a plural for ornitorynchus?

*edit. Oops.

Yeah, what he said!

Edited November 23, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[The Crimson King]

He would also like to state that he has a steel pair and thinks all this fuss is much better handled in private between the good people of Kronos, STA and TOP.

The enemy of the platypus is MAN

[Kaiser]

It's principle AJ, saving money has nothing to do with the issue in my opinion. STA is an alliance who vouched to protect all members from rogues, raiders and other alliances. Kronos taking those slots away deprived them of their duty.

What's life without something to live for?

Edit: Grammar

Just FYI, your alliance is Doing the same thing that Kronos did