An Announcement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Ragashingo]

so, if another alliance were to do an alliance wide tech raid against Athens, it would not be considered an alliance on alliance war by CnG since Athens did not consider their alliance wide tech raid of KofN a war and the fact that it seems all of CnG consider it to simply be a tech raid?

Interestingly, Athens was wrong. People like you (and a large percentage of the rest of our world) stood up to tell them they were wrong, their allies also told them they were wrong, and in the end they themselves even admitted they were wrong. So where does that leave your hypothetical example? Nowhere, thats where.

This issue is solved. Bringing up situation after situation, and especially basing these situation on what Athens did, serves no point except perhaps to make you look like a sore winner. Take my advice, stop while you're ahead and wait on the next issue to come along.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Alicia]

Did I say our raid was a good thing? I've spent the weekend in back channels making sure it never happens again. I believe I've been quite clear in my opinion that this raid was a terrible idea and that I would not have supported it had I been online. If you're looking to rip into Athens, don't waste your time preaching to the choir and you don't need to worry about the rest of Athens since I've already done it for you.

This is why I like you Rsox.

[agafaba]

Its one thing to pound out a point but they already admit they were wrong. They are paying reps and their allies/members are telling them they are wrong. You cant expect more from them, so until the whole thing happens again there is no point in beating a dead horse.

[Style #386]

Its one thing to pound out a point but they already admit they were wrong. They are paying reps and their allies/members are telling them they are wrong. You cant expect more from them, so until the whole thing happens again there is no point in beating a dead horse.

That doesn't stop some people.

[Starfox101]

so, if another alliance were to do an alliance wide tech raid against Athens, it would not be considered an alliance on alliance war by CnG since Athens did not consider their alliance wide tech raid of KofN a war and the fact that it seems all of CnG consider it to simply be a tech raid?

It would certainly still be considered an aggressive action against Athens warranting a violent response. I don't understand why everyone thinks because Athens called it a raid, that it means a MADP won't become activated if you raided them. I recall majority of the versions of the MADP treaty stating something along the lines of "If one signatory comes under attack...". To me, a tech raid is an attack and as such, your point is moot. Just like the other 300 people who tried this point, in this announcement alone.

Sorry, Doch, I love you, but you dislike MK and it's obvious you're using hatred to force a point. You know we would both stand by our allies in this situation all the same as MK.

[Dochartaigh]

Did I say our raid was a good thing? I've spent the weekend in back channels making sure it never happens again. I believe I've been quite clear in my opinion that this raid was a terrible idea and that I would not have supported it had I been online. If you're looking to rip into Athens, don't waste your time preaching to the choir and you don't need to worry about the rest of Athens since I've already done it for you.

That said, if you don't know the difference between a tech raid and a war then that's something I can't help with.

i never said you did not state it was bad. my point was to address what you stated in here: " MK's point is that any attack on Athens or another member of C&G will count as an alliance war and will result in the activation of C&G." since it seems that many in Athens and MK do not see the raid against KofN as a war whatsoever and most vehemently deny this.

so i am not looking to rip into anyone but simply asked a question based off of your post. I know i have ripped into Athens a lot recently but thanks to a two day vacation, i no longer feel the need as i said all i wanted. This post just piqued my curiosity based on what i have read from other CnG members.

so, can you please address what i actually posted which was this:

so, if another alliance were to do an alliance wide tech raid against Athens, it would not be considered an alliance on alliance war by CnG since Athens did not consider their alliance wide tech raid of KofN a war and the fact that it seems all of CnG consider it to simply be a tech raid?

i actually do not see anything in there that rips into Athens. it is simply what is fact from everything that has thus far been posted. but hey, i know my name is fairly recognizable and thus, just stating i was "ripping" into Athens is far easier than actually replying to what was posted.

@Ragashingo- same goes to you buddy. please reread my post and point out where i "rip" into Athens instead of asking a question based on what rsox stated about CnG and their MADP. i am not being a sore loser but hey if you wish to state such that is your prerogative.

@SF- now this is all i wanted. i just found the link to MK's forums and was gonna go look up the info but (RL i had homework that needed to be done before midnite) and so i asked a question. SF basically answered that, though i do not hate MK. i may dislike them now but i do not hate them. Athens on the other hand i do despise. my point of this was based on what rsox posted and me trying to clarify what was meant before i actually attempted to post something about Athens or CnG as i did not want to actually post something based on a faulty assumption. so if the MADPs are worded as you suggest, then yes it would include a tech raid, but if they are worded something like "defense will be given for any aggressive war against a signatory" then that is something else altogether. (seems i cannot see or find the treaty section on the MK boards...)

[rsoxbronco1]

i never said you did not state it was bad. my point was to address what you stated in here: " MK's point is that any attack on Athens or another member of C&G will count as an alliance war and will result in the activation of C&G." since it seems that many in Athens and MK do not see the raid against KofN as a war whatsoever and most vehemently deny this.

so i am not looking to rip into anyone but simply asked a question based off of your post. I know i have ripped into Athens a lot recently but thanks to a two day vacation, i no longer feel the need as i said all i wanted. This post just piqued my curiosity based on what i have read from other CnG members.

so, can you please address what i actually posted which was this:

i actually do not see anything in there that rips into Athens. it is simply what is fact from everything that has thus far been posted. but hey, i know my name is fairly recognizable and thus, just stating i was "ripping" into Athens is far easier than actually replying to what was posted.

@Ragashingo- same goes to you buddy. please reread my post and point out where i "rip" into Athens instead of asking a question based on what rsox stated about CnG and their MADP. i am not being a sore loser but hey if you wish to state such that is your prerogative.

@SF- now this is all i wanted. i just found the link to MK's forums and was gonna go look up the info but (RL i had homework that needed to be done before midnite) and so i asked a question. SF basically answered that, though i do not hate MK. i may dislike them now but i do not hate them. Athens on the other hand i do despise. my point of this was based on what rsox posted and me trying to clarify what was meant before i actually attempted to post something about Athens or CnG as i did not want to actually post something based on a faulty assumption. so if the MADPs are worded as you suggest, then yes it would include a tech raid, but if they are worded something like "defense will be given for any aggressive war against a signatory" then that is something else altogether. (seems i cannot see or find the treaty section on the MK boards...)

I'm still a bit confused about what point you're trying to make here. Assuming we request assistance, here's how things go.

If someone attacks Athens for any reason, they have to deal with C&G.

If someone attacks Athens aggressively, they have to deal with C&G and our MDP/MDoAP/ODP partners.

If someone attacks Athens as a response to an aggressive attack by Athens, they have have to deal with C&G and our MDoAP partners.

This is not rocket science, it's CN 101.

[Ragashingo]

Ragashingo- same goes to you buddy. please reread my post and point out where i "rip" into Athens instead of asking a question based on what rsox stated about CnG and their MADP. i am not being a sore loser but hey if you wish to state such that is your prerogative.

Your question, as I already stated, is deeply flawed and thus irrelevant. Pretty much the whole world admits and agrees that Athens was wrong, yet your question is taking the position that CnG saw nothing wrong with the attack. The obvious truth here is that CnG did see the attack as wrong and would, entirely consistently, see someone mirroring the same kind of attack back at Athens as wrong as well. You don't have a leg to stand on here yet you keep trying. Stop already! You're just going to hurt yourself further than you already have.

Besides, I said you were a sore winner. You and those on your side won this issue yet you refuse to let it go and move on. But thanks for falling into my little trap.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ragashingo

[flak attack]

i never said you did not state it was bad. my point was to address what you stated in here: " MK's point is that any attack on Athens or another member of C&G will count as an alliance war and will result in the activation of C&G." since it seems that many in Athens and MK do not see the raid against KofN as a war whatsoever and most vehemently deny this.

No, we don't. A war involves the indiscriminate use of air strikes, navy and CMs, which is something Athens isn't doing. This is a raid. A bad one, but still a raid.

[Dochartaigh]

I'm still a bit confused about what point you're trying to make here. Assuming we request assistance, here's how things go.

If someone attacks Athens for any reason, they have to deal with C&G.

If someone attacks Athens aggressively, they have to deal with C&G and our MDP/MDoAP/ODP partners.

If someone attacks Athens as a response to an aggressive attack by Athens, they have have to deal with C&G and our MDoAP partners.

This is not rocket science, it's CN 101.

honestly, i was trying to find how the treaties were worded but i am unsure where to find them in MK's forums.

Raga- you are correct, i actually read winner but wrote loser for some reason. honestly, i blame trying to finish up homework and lack of concentrating on this matter.

i never said that CnG did not see something wrong with this. my question was directed towards if a tech raid would be considered a war, since most in CnG do not see this tech raid of KofN as a war. so please do not read into it what you want to be there, but instead read what is actually there. never once did i state anywhere in that post that CnG did not see what Athens did as wrong. no, what i wrote was CnG did not see what Athens did as a war. war=/=wrong and are completely different words with entirely different meaning.

as for my question being deeply flawed? how can a question honestly be flawed in any way? a question is typically asked to clarify something either caused by a misunderstanding or to prevent a misunderstanding. in this case, i asked a question in order to prevent a misunderstanding on my part since i was truly not trying to rip into Athens.

by that standard, i will simply rip into Athens again, instead of actually trying to understand their side. heaven forbid i try to mature myself in this situation and attempt to understand the other side of it instead of simply rip into it. thank you for putting me back on the proper path Raga.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Dochartaigh

[Dochartaigh]

No, we don't. A war involves the indiscriminate use of air strikes, navy and CMs, which is something Athens isn't doing. This is a raid. A bad one, but still a raid.

ok so to further clarify based on this statement. if an alliance were to tech raid (i.e. only use GAs and no air strikes, navy, CMs, spy attempts, or nukes) Athens would that bring in CnG? hopefully this has clarified my previous question.

[rsoxbronco1]

honestly, i was trying to find how the treaties were worded but i am unsure where to find them in MK's forums.

Raga- you are correct, i actually read winner but wrote loser for some reason. honestly, i blame trying to finish up homework and lack of concentrating on this matter.

as for my question being deeply flawed? how can a question honestly be flawed in any way? a question is typically asked to clarify something either caused by a misunderstanding or to prevent a misunderstanding. in this case, i asked a question in order to prevent a misunderstanding on my part since i was truly not trying to rip into Athens.

by that standard, i will simply rip into Athens again, instead of actually trying to understand their side. heaven forbid i try to mature myself in this situation and attempt to understand the other side of it instead of simply rip into it. thank you for putting me back on the proper path Raga.

Article II

We pledge mutual defense AND aggression in times of conflict, doing so with the utmost trust in each others motives and reasoning. We live as one, and fight as one.

The rest of the treaty can be found here: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Complai...rievances_Union

[Dochartaigh]

Article II

We pledge mutual defense AND aggression in times of conflict, doing so with the utmost trust in each others motives and reasoning. We live as one, and fight as one.

The rest of the treaty can be found here: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Complai...rievances_Union

thank you. i seriously need to learn how to use that wikia...... that answers my question completely. good day sir.

[Ragashingo]

honestly, i was trying to find how the treaties were worded but i am unsure where to find them in MK's forums.

Raga- you are correct, i actually read winner but wrote loser for some reason. honestly, i blame trying to finish up homework and lack of concentrating on this matter.

as for my question being deeply flawed? how can a question honestly be flawed in any way? a question is typically asked to clarify something either caused by a misunderstanding or to prevent a misunderstanding. in this case, i asked a question in order to prevent a misunderstanding on my part since i was truly not trying to rip into Athens.

by that standard, i will simply rip into Athens again, instead of actually trying to understand their side. heaven forbid i try to mature myself in this situation and attempt to understand the other side of it instead of simply rip into it. thank you for putting me back on the proper path Raga.

A question can easily be flawed if it is asked for the wrong reasons or with the wrong assumptions like yours were. And please cut out this "I might as well do something bad" crap. It makes you look childish.

[Dochartaigh]

A question can easily be flawed if it is asked for the wrong reasons or with the wrong assumptions like yours were. And please cut out this "I might as well do something bad" crap. It makes you look childish.

the only person with wrong reasons or assumptions is you as once rsox found me the treaty i dropped it. so please try and continue to make it look like i asked that question for ulterior motives it is quite amusing. and honestly, your attempts at spinning and rewriting my posts do not make me look childish in the least.

[Ragashingo]

the only person with wrong reasons or assumptions is you as once rsox found me the treaty i dropped it. so please try and continue to make it look like i asked that question for ulterior motives it is quite amusing. and honestly, your attempts at spinning and rewriting my posts do not make me look childish in the least.

So throwing a tantrum and saying, "maybe I will go tear into them then" is now considered upstanding adult behavior? I guess I owe you an apology.

[Dochartaigh]

So throwing a tantrum and saying, "maybe I will go tear into them then" is now considered upstanding adult behavior? I guess I owe you an apology.

where was the tantrum? i stated that since you, no matter what i posted, insisted that i only meant to rip into Athens, why should i bother not doing so? if anything i post on this matter, regardless of actual content and words, you will take as me ripping into Athens, i may as well not even consider posting that but should instead just rip into Athens in order to give you what you want.

seriously, can't find the tantrum in there whatsoever but then again, i obviously lack your vision of the world.

[Ragashingo]

where was the tantrum? i stated that since you, no matter what i posted, insisted that i only meant to rip into Athens, why should i bother not doing so?

Because it would be wrong? Yes, there is that.

if anything i post on this matter, regardless of actual content and words, you will take as me ripping into Athens, i may as well not even consider posting that but should instead just rip into Athens in order to give you what you want.

Hehe. What have I posted that made you think I wanted you to rip into Athens?

[Stetson76]

Just out of curiosity is MK extending this same protection to FoB, or were they not threatened?

While I've seen them mentioned a few times in this thread (and Admin help me, I read it all), I missed any reference to them in the OP or any official statement. I don't have a pony in this race, it just seemed an interesting omission.

[lebubu]

Just out of curiosity is MK extending this same protection to FoB, or were they not threatened?

CnG is a MDAP bloc, an attack on any signatory is an attack on the whole bloc.

[flak attack]

Just out of curiosity is MK extending this same protection to FoB, or were they not threatened?

While I've seen them mentioned a few times in this thread (and Admin help me, I read it all), I missed any reference to them in the OP or any official statement. I don't have a pony in this race, it just seemed an interesting omission.

You know the famed Athens/MK divide in CnG? It's actually an MK/FoB divide. Attack all you want.

[shahenshah]

CnG is a MDAP bloc, an attack on any signatory is an attack on the whole bloc.

Indeed and I'm assuming same goes for attack from one signatory means attack from all in case of a war?

[guus87]

Indeed and I'm assuming same goes for attack from one signatory means attack from all in case of a war?

if it is a real war yes, but not a techraid

edit: But raiding a CnG alliance is a perfect DoW for all of CnG

Edited November 18, 2009 by guus87

[Stormsend]

so, if another alliance were to do an alliance wide tech raid against Athens, it would not be considered an alliance on alliance war by CnG since Athens did not consider their alliance wide tech raid of KofN a war and the fact that it seems all of CnG consider it to simply be a tech raid?

ok so to further clarify based on this statement. if an alliance were to tech raid (i.e. only use GAs and no air strikes, navy, CMs, spy attempts, or nukes) Athens would that bring in CnG? hopefully this has clarified my previous question.

I don't think anyone is that brainless. These hypothetical situations people are throwing around would apply to an alliance run by, perhaps, an aggressive gerbil.

Just out of curiosity is MK extending this same protection to FoB, or were they not threatened?

While I've seen them mentioned a few times in this thread (and Admin help me, I read it all), I missed any reference to them in the OP or any official statement. I don't have a pony in this race, it just seemed an interesting omission.

Yes, we are. FoB wasn't mentioned in the initial outrage, true, but that doesn't mean we offer them any less protection against an aggressive attack that would be pointless considering the situation has been resolved for some time now.

Indeed and I'm assuming same goes for attack from one signatory means attack from all in case of a war?

Stop trying so hard.

It's been established that C&G as a political entity a) does not recognize this as an alliance-to-alliance war and b) absolutely loathe the act of tech raiding an alliance that size. For point "a," the successful transition from a tech raid to a war involving C&G involves a valid CB, proper staggering and more than ground attacks. For point "b," there was a verbal $@!-chewing in the back channels of C&G and elsewhere, so this clearly does not have the support of C&G as a political power.

Now, don't read into that last statement as hypocritical of the "We Roll Together" catchphrase of the bloc. We don't go into a full-scale war willy-nilly and we definitely wouldn't against an alliance like these fine knights. It's just not how we do things here. Athens would have had to seek out each alliance in the bloc (and all their other allies), just like the rest of the alliances around the world do. We're not tactless barbarians most of the time.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Mundokiir

[lebubu]

It's cute how some members of the moral brigade (like my dear IRON councilor here, one of the paragons of moral integrity) sound almost disappointed that 24mil NS didn't hit Knights of Ni and start an endless back and forth on how this is, in fact, not a tech raid!