Athens Announcement regarding Ni!

[Ogaden]

So I suppose the lesson here is don't randomly attack someone while most of the world is bored and looking for a fight

[Augustus Autumn]

We are bigger but we sent peace after the raid. The intention was not to curb stomp. We did not intend to destroy or annihilate.

I feel my analogy about mugging someone but then letting them go to the hospital stands here. I'm also not seeing the bit about being sorry.

[erikz]

We are bigger but we sent peace after the raid.

Great way to describe an alliance wide declaration on another alliance.

The only difference between this incident and others is that in this case there wasn't an official declaration posted on the OWF.

[agafaba]

If you find a raid you're free to raid in my opinion. However we would encourage you to engage in only two ground attacks followed by an offer of peace and to have respect for who you raid. I won't deny you that. However others would not like it if you find a large alliance (in this case something above 15-30 members or who have a treaty) and you would apparently, like us, have to conform with the social norms that exist, just like we have. We do not in any way claim that we are the only ones with a right to raid. However even now we are preparing to seize all raids.

I understand, but its like saying that you made a sport that you believe everyone should participate in, however nobody is allowed to play against British men (of course they can play against you though).

Realize you got out of the situation easy as far as the rest of us can see though, many of us have been in a lot more trouble for raiding much smaller alliances.

[Jgoods45]

I feel my analogy about mugging someone but then letting them go to the hospital stands here. I'm also not seeing the bit about being sorry.

I think Londo said sorry like 5 times on these boards. Too bad you people don't believe him. You will never see us down on our knees begging for forgiveness from an international community who wants us dead.

[erikz]

I think Londo said sorry like 5 times on these boards. Too bad you people don't believe him. You will never see us down on our knees begging for forgiveness from an international community who wants us dead.

People don't want to see you guys dead (at least I don't).

Your leader apologized but some people like max don't seem to care and still think what Athens did was right.

[Emperor Khan]

You keep talking out of your $@! don't you?

Here's an update. There was no treaty.

Go on with your drivel though.

Yes there is. It was announced about an hour before you made your post:- http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=73864

[Max Beck]

People don't want to see you guys dead (at least I don't).

Your leader apologized but some people like max don't seem to care and still think what Athens did was right.

I wasn't even there to authorize it, i was away due to some complex health issues (OOC: RL took me for the weekend) and I was unconscious.

Mistakes occur and i wouldn't have made that mistake because i have learned the rules earlier. However that is not an excuse and i am sorry for what my friends have done.

I do not impose my moral values on others and would not say that one thing is more right than another. Therefore i cannot say that what we did was wrong but i cannot say it was right either. We did it, and people showed us it is unacceptable. We apologize and adapt. End of story.

[oinkoink12]

You keep talking out of your $@! don't you?

Here's an update. There was no treaty.

Go on with your drivel though.

BURN!

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=73864

Go on with your not knowing what your talking about.

[janax]

Pointing out the faults in TOP's arguments are always fun, I agree.

I know demonizing TOP appears to be a hobby of certain people in certain alliances, but I think you should look back through these threads and find out who was the one threatening to go through MK to get to them.

Hint: It wasn't TOP leading that charge.

[Archon]

Max, I think you missed a bit of the point of the why the whole incident escalated, and why people were upset about it. The truth is, people don't like bullies, and Athens was acting like a bully. Hopefully, you won't do that anymore.

I love how you came in here with a clear intent to say one thing, played coy and beat around the bush without actually reading or responding to anything that was given to you (which was clear when you "cleverly" asked questions that had already been answered by Max) and try to end with some moral message. Cute.

Great way to describe an alliance wide declaration on another alliance.

The only difference between this incident and others is that in this case there wasn't an official declaration posted on the OWF.

Only difference? So there's never been CMs, bombing runs, or nuclear weaponry used in alliance wars ever in CN? Ever? Or quadding, for that matter? Sheesh, I guess there really was no other difference between this incident and an alliance-wide declaration on another alliance. Coulda fooled me...

I know demonizing TOP appears to be a hobby of certain people in certain alliances, but I think you should look back through these threads and find out who was the one threatening to go through MK to get to them.

Hint: It wasn't TOP leading that charge.

I think he's referring to the massive TOP presence throughout this thread continually saber rattling and making none-to-secretive hints about enforcing their moral code via military might, etc.

[janax]

I count 8 TOP members (3.5% of the alliance, approximately)

At least 2 of which were supportive of the announcement, and I see no real saber rattling.

Since this has been attributed to TOP as a whole....we can then say that all the support of Athen's and how awesome it was what they did in the 68 page missive by MK members (more than 3.5% of the alliance) is the opinion of MK?

I realize unless YOU say it, it's not official, but let's be fair about this. TOP has been far less involved in any "saber rattling" in this and other threads, than MK members have been blatant in their support for how great this was.

[Earogema]

I count 8 TOP members (3.5% of the alliance, approximately)

At least 2 of which were supportive of the announcement, and I see no real saber rattling.

Since this has been attributed to TOP as a whole....we can then say that all the support of Athen's and how awesome it was what they did in the 68 page missive by MK members (more than 3.5% of the alliance) is the opinion of MK?

I realize unless YOU say it, it's not official, but let's be fair about this. TOP has been far less involved in any "saber rattling" in this and other threads, than MK members have been blatant in their support for how great this was.

And let us also be real here.

Most of the time, most of the places it's posted, it will eventually result in conflict. After all, an alliance's policy eventually is only supported by membership. This is even more true of TOP.

[NLights]

Why is it all the sudden wrong to be moral guys? D:

[der_ko]

Why is it all the sudden wrong to be moral guys? D:

It's not, but when an alliance has a long track record of not caring about moral or immoral acts you tend to doubt the sincerity of their new found moral code. For example, not many (save for a few ex-hegemony nutters) would doubt The Grämlins sincereity when they criticize someone for acts they consider immoral. This is because The Grämlins have always been consistent with their beliefs whereas most other alliances have not and will usually try to spin events to suit their current agenda.

Edited November 16, 2009 by der_ko

[Bob Janova]

Or quadding, for that matter?

It was said in the other thread that KoN were quadded in this attack. In the past, wars were fought nukes-free, even between nuclear nations, so just because the full arsenal is not used doesn't mean it's not a war.

There's no 'massive TOP presence', and TOP weren't at the forefront of alliances threatening to 'do something about it' throughout this incident. I think you need to look somewhere colder and more blue . And it isn't 'TOP's moral code', Athens and FoB violated the moral code of most of CN (including you, if you told them their action was wrong and you were unhappy with them for it).

[NLights]

It's not, but when an alliance has a long track record of not caring about moral or immoral acts you tend to doubt the sincerity of their new found moral code. For example, not many (save for a few ex-hegemony nutters) would doubt The Grämlins sincereity when they criticize someone for acts they consider immoral. This is because The Grämlins have always been consistent with their beliefs whereas most other alliances have not and will usually try to spin events to suit their current agenda.

Yeah man, I totally didn't consider Londo's apology sincere either

[der_ko]

Yeah man, I totally didn't consider Londo's apology sincere either

Well, it's up to you to show how a sincere apology is made then.

Edited November 16, 2009 by der_ko

[NLights]

Well, it's up to you to show how a sincere apology is made then.

I'd rather have a bloody nose

I just want a karma crucifixion

Edited November 16, 2009 by NorthernLights

[Heft]

I think Londo said sorry like 5 times on these boards. Too bad you people don't believe him. You will never see us down on our knees begging for forgiveness from an international community who wants us dead.

We haven't already?

[Some-Guy]

I think he's referring to the massive TOP presence throughout this thread continually saber rattling and making none-to-secretive hints about enforcing their moral code via military might, etc.

I like this.

When TOP members come by and run their mouths of it's like "OMG!!1! U R TOP's... collective considered morals and alliance opinion, stop rattling your sabers EBIL TOP!!!!!!1111!!!" and equally retarded opinions.

When a set of MK dudes comes along and runs their mouth off with verbal diarrhoea we get "Oh, if you want MK's official stance, you need to talk to Archon, otherwise my guys can say what they want".

Let's not forget when two members of TOP government (and a member or two) go and wish Athens well and applaud them for their turn around of ways not one person pauses to think "Uh, maybe TOP might very well just wanna wish a guy, who just made a mistake, well".

Please continue to feel free to ignore TOP opinions that get in the way of your blind hate, won't you Digitaria?

[Starbuck]

Sadly, I missed the large portion of this conflict as I wasn't around this weekend, but I will comment to the above post being correct.

[Kaiser]

I think he's referring to the massive TOP presence throughout this thread continually saber rattling and making none-to-secretive hints about enforcing their moral code via military might, etc.

We don't censor our members, they are free to say what they wish. Our members don't represent us on these forums. If you see Dr.Dan, Kissgoodbye, or Liquidmercury making a post, then you can take it as TOP's policy.

Oddly enough Archon, I thought that you of all people would understand this policy. It matchs your own, does it not?

[Golan 1st]

I disagree with almost everything in the OP, except the conclusion.

However, I congratulate the leadership of Athens for having the guts to admit their mistake and correct their ways.

Ignore the trolls. You made an idiotic mistake. Something that everybody does now and then.

What it very uncommon is the character to say that you were wrong and change your course of action accordingly.

I don't care what your motivation was and how you reached this decision. It certainly was not fear, as you had the backup of strong allies. I respect you for ending doing the right thing.

[Heracles the Great]

As a friend and former ally who has no interest in Londo's blood (just Tyga's), I was gravely dissapointed and saddened when I heard of this. I wish Athens the best as they attempt to sort through this debacle and have confidence that Londo will help them find his way.