So, uh, Athens...

[conistonslim]

How does that bear any significance? It is still a community, and it may or may not be protected.

You come here throwing your moral outrage around like a sledgehammer, and yet you participate in the very same actions you decry?

As per your previous statement about Athens destroying commnities in the same way as the NPO did, you are either telling me that you are responsible for destroying communities in the same manner as the NPO due to your own tech raiding, or you are a gigantic hypocrite.

Opportunism at its best.

Putting morality arguments aside for a moment.

When it was decided to go ahead with this "tech raid" you guys must of discussed the possibility of the potential backlash from the CN community at large when it became public knowledge. Did you (Athens) feel the benefits would outweigh any negative PR that might come your way? Are you surprised by by all the negative responses?

Edit: added the second question.

Edited November 14, 2009 by conistonslim

[enderland]

You still haven't proved how "having a community" is relevant to this topic.

I can agree with the OOC reasonings for the most part, but IC I disagree. It's is arbitrary to say the least, and it ignores the fact that the action (raiding) still is the same.

OOC:

Because that's how I define "playing CN," since the game itself is a trite and pointless game at best, and flawed and imbalanced at worst. The "community element" is what I would define as being relevant to playing CN

[conistonslim]

double Post

Edited November 14, 2009 by conistonslim

[Tromp]

OOC:

Because that's how I define "playing CN," since the game itself is a trite and pointless game at best, and flawed and imbalanced at worst. The "community element" is what I would define as being relevant to playing CN

Well, I believe IC > OOC, so this debate probably ends here.

Also, just take a look at FAN... Being at war for over 2 years doesn't necessarily destroy your community, so if your community falls apart after some techraids you just fail imho.

[Jack Diorno]

As an aside, it's ironic to see someone in Athens making the statement about "participating in actions you decry" given how the whole "Karma" thing worked out, and the number of times Athens people said "Karma is a !@#$%*" to NPO

Regardless, no alliance I've been part of has ever raided essentially an entire alliance at once ('course many of the lower NS nations in KoN were not hit, but I gather that was merely the result of the lower NS members of FoB and Athens not being as active as the top fifteen nations of KoN were all hit in this raid). If one person raiding an alliance is the same as an entire alliance raiding, I fear for your views on a rogue or things of that nature - that seems to imply there is no difference between a single nation action and an entire alliance action.

In addition, when I raid, I almost never bother to check for other people willing to raid with me - the only exceptions come when other people present me with "raidable" people. Never have I posted on forums somewhere "hey this entire alliance is good to hit, join on in, it's going to be a party!" and especially not with respect to an alliance of the size of KoN.

Destroying a community is something that is quite difficult to do as a single nation, or even several - however when the top fifteen nations of your alliance are all raided in the manner of a few hours, that has a much MUCH more drastic effect on your community than a single nation ever could.

If you cannot see the difference between getting hit with an entire alliance tech raid and a single nation (or even handful) and the effects that will have on a community, well, I guess I won't be able to get anywhere in this discussion.

I am quite amazed how suddenly you have turned your views around, and now it is incredibly hard to destroy a community, as opposed to tech raiding shattering these communities and breaking hearts. A tech raid on the 'top fifteen nations' in an 39 man AA, can be more or less damaging for the community then an attack on one or two nations in a 3 man AA, it would be different in every scenario. Either way, you actively participate in exactly what you are preaching against, the hypocrisy shown by you is enlightening though.

[Bob Janova]

I don't really agree that it's hypocrisy that 'standard' tech raiders are complaining about this. But even if it is, you need to look up what hypocrisy means. It's complaining about someone else doing the same wrong things that you yourself do. Even tech raiders (and they don't come much more ardently in favour of attacking unaligned nations than Ender) think you are in the wrong.

It's also highly amusing that a prominent member which claimed earlier this year New Pacific Order, your crimes come to an end today. We have become an instrument in the hands of Karma, and is now partaking in aggressive warfare against an entirely innocent alliance (one of the greatest 'crimes' the Hegemony was accused of), should be complaining of alleged hypocrisy elsewhere.

[Tromp]

I don't really agree that it's hypocrisy that 'standard' tech raiders are complaining about this. But even if it is, you need to look up what hypocrisy means. It's complaining about someone else doing the same wrong things that you yourself do. Even tech raiders (and they don't come much more ardently in favour of attacking unaligned nations than Ender) think you are in the wrong.

I want to comment on one thing:

Hypocrisy means you pretend to have some beliefs or anything of that kind, while you actually don't. Good or wrong hasn't anything to do with that. It's perception that has to do with hypocrisy.

[SpacingOutMan]

[OOC: Well, this thread has proven its purpose as a +1 to everyone's post count (well, +150 for some). Wahoo for another +1 for me!]

Athens "raided"/"warred"/"hugged"/"party boyed" a forty member alliance. Okay, why are there 58 pages of this crap (though half of it is related to NPO being supa-ebil)? Yes, they raided a forty member alliance and haven't posted a declaration of war. Lest we forget that this isn't something ground breaking or new... at all. If people have such a huge problem with it, then put up or shut up. Stop parading around with silly paper signs and actually do something about it.

With that said, Athens, stop digging a deeper hole. Everyone knows what's going on. Just make the declaration official and be done with it. However, you lost the moral high ground the moment you pulled the same stunt that Karma fought against in the middle-portion of the year.

Hypocrisy is:

a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

Just a heads up.

[Jack Diorno]

I don't really agree that it's hypocrisy that 'standard' tech raiders are complaining about this. But even if it is, you need to look up what hypocrisy means. It's complaining about someone else doing the same wrong things that you yourself do. Even tech raiders (and they don't come much more ardently in favour of attacking unaligned nations than Ender) think you are in the wrong.

It's also highly amusing that a prominent member which claimed earlier this year New Pacific Order, your crimes come to an end today. We have become an instrument in the hands of Karma, and is now partaking in aggressive warfare against an entirely innocent alliance (one of the greatest 'crimes' the Hegemony was accused of), should be complaining of alleged hypocrisy elsewhere.

Ender is a hypocrite, it is mere opportunism that is motivating people to become so outraged, many tech raiders approve our actions as shown before the morality crew (including yourself) showed up to flood the thread.

You are also confusing tech raids with war, the ramifications of each are far different.

[enderland]

I am quite amazed how suddenly you have turned your views around, and now it is incredibly hard to destroy a community, as opposed to tech raiding shattering these communities and breaking hearts. A tech raid on the 'top fifteen nations' in an 39 man AA, can be more or less damaging for the community then an attack on one or two nations in a 3 man AA, it would be different in every scenario. Either way, you actively participate in exactly what you are preaching against, the hypocrisy shown by you is enlightening though.

....

are you intentionally ignoring everything I said?

If you cannot see the difference between getting hit with an entire alliance tech raid and a single nation (or even handful) and the effects that will have on a community, well, I guess I won't be able to get anywhere in this discussion.

I'm going to assume that you cannot see the difference. Let me know if that changes anytime soon.

And as an aside, I most certainly am against the seemingly well accepted idea that "might makes right" should be adopted as the way CN works. Take that for what you will.

[enderland]

Ender is a hypocrite, it is mere opportunism that is motivating people to become so outraged, many tech raiders approve our actions as shown before the morality crew (including yourself) showed up to flood the thread.

You are also confusing tech raids with war, the ramifications of each are far different.

Normally when one alliance launches about 30 wars against another alliance it is considered a war.

[Shinpah]

Normally when one alliance launches about 30 wars against another alliance it is considered a war.

I suppose you should consider this an exception

[Vilien]

Ender is a hypocrite, it is mere opportunism that is motivating people to become so outraged, many tech raiders approve our actions as shown before the morality crew (including yourself) showed up to flood the thread.

You are also confusing tech raids with war, the ramifications of each are far different.

Do you have any counter-arguments for the morality crew other than a series of names beginning with morality (morality brigade, morality police, etc.)? Your arguments against "hypocrisy" only extend as far as ender.

[enderland]

I suppose you should consider this an exception

Hm

so if your alliance got attacked by 40 people declaring with "PM for peace" and only sent GAs you wouldn't consider it an act of war?

edit: clarification as to which quote I was responding to

Edited November 14, 2009 by ender land

[enderland]

Do you have any counter-arguments for the morality crew other than a series of names beginning with morality (morality brigade, morality police, etc.)? Your arguments against "hypocrisy" only extend as far as ender.

Which, to be fair, considering I've never participated in a raid against an alliance of 39 people, is a far fetched presumption to make anyways.

[Choader]

LETS RUN THIS !@#$ INTO THE GROUND

[Bob Janova]

A 'tech raid' IS a war. It shows up on a war search, it damages nations (in this case throwing KoN's entire top tier into anarchy) and it triggers MDPs (tech raid Umbrella if you don't believe me). You can't throw off responsibility for declaring a war by calling it a 'tech raid'. Sure, you don't go for maximum damage at the beginning, though an update quad is still a very damaging attack (over 200 infra lost with a 3 on 1, even without WRCs and high tech), but you wouldn't try to claim that GW2 wasn't a war because it wasn't nuclear, I'm sure.

I don't see how it's opportunistic to be outraged at an ally of an ally that I had nothing against until this morning. Your actions are what's put you in this PR hole. Of course, some people who didn't like you before will take advantage of it as much as they can, but you have a way wider group of condemners than that.

[eyriq]

Ender is a hypocrite, it is mere opportunism that is motivating people to become so outraged, many tech raiders approve our actions as shown before the morality crew (including yourself) showed up to flood the thread.

You are also confusing tech raids with war, the ramifications of each are far different.

You are also confusing tech raids on the unaligned or small alliances with tech raids on large alliances, the ramifications of each are far different.

[Tromp]

Hm

so if your alliance got attacked by 40 people declaring with "PM for peace" and only sent GAs you wouldn't consider it an act of war?

edit: clarification as to which quote I was responding to

Erm... A techraid is declaring a war...

Just had to point this out.

[Supreme 142]

Edit: This is the original treaty.

okay failed quote attempt of me.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Supreme 142

[Shinpah]

Hm

so if your alliance got attacked by 40 people declaring with "PM for peace" and only sent GAs you wouldn't consider it an act of war?

Not really | Edit for clarity: our wars against KoN would be individual wars, I am contesting their status as an alliance war.

I would respond as if it were though

Edited November 14, 2009 by Shinpah

[Jack Diorno]

Do you have any counter-arguments for the morality crew other than a series of names beginning with morality (morality brigade, morality police, etc.)? Your arguments against "hypocrisy" only extend as far as ender.

I enjoy making up names as I go along, it is part of the charm of Jack Diorno.

my 'arguments against hypocrisy' extend to all tech raiders, I have not commented on the morality of tech raiding itself as I personally have a fairly neutral opinion on the matter, I just dislike the slew of opportunists that sit back and point out other peoples flaws all the while holding the same flaws themselves.

[enderland]

Erm... A techraid is declaring a war...

Just had to point this out.

I'm well aware - I was attempting to point out how ludicrous it is to imply that a bunch of wars being declared against an alliance are not "considered a war."

Not really

I would respond as if it were though

lol?

[WalkerNinja]

When you attack every nation in an alliance but only send Ground Attacks you have still started a war, you just haven't done so very effectively.

[Shinpah]

I'm well aware - I was attempting to point out how ludicrous it is to imply that a bunch of wars being declared against an alliance are not "considered a war."

lol?

I attempted to edit for clarity of my opinion