Rating alliances

[shahenshah]

I think IRON is the last alliance that can be lecturing people on how to honor treaties in the correct manner.

Yea -.-, our bad of honoring treaties in incorrect manner. Maybe next time we'll actually take the lucrative 'jump the ship' option and sing around with ' oh we jumped ships since beginning of time, forgive us, we good now' routine

However its important that the jump ship has coverage with you in it, else no deal!

Athens: 6, I'd give it 3 or 4, I dont really care, but Londo and Jack have provided good entertainment for sometime now, + I even fired my jester and my nation now has lower expenses, hmm, +1 for that, so its 7! Keep up the good work guys!

Edited November 12, 2009 by shahenshah

[Cataduanes]

Maybe next time we'll actually take the lucrative 'jump the ship' option and sing around with ' oh we jumped ships since beginning of time, forgive us, we good now' routine

Not much chance of that Shah, that approach tends to work for those not guilty of wilful participation in curbstomps, injustices, etc, etc...surely memories are not that short in your neck of the woods

Edited November 12, 2009 by Cataduanes

[shahenshah]

Not much chance of that Shah, that approach tends to work for those not guilty of wilful participation in curbstomps, injustices, etc, etc...surely memories are not that short in your neck of the woods

Ah! crap, There's the experience talkin! Thanks for the heads up Orange bro . And personally yea I'd agree like 'totaallyy', but hey, seems to have worked for half the Karma, I think we should atleast try, its the moral new world and all! besides, we're doing nothing anyway.

Edited November 12, 2009 by shahenshah

[King William IV]

Would you like to specify which two please? so we can discuss it further?

I would say 2 out of the first three, take your pick.

[Cataduanes]

Ah! crap, There's the experience talkin! Thanks for the heads up Orange bro . And personally yea I'd agree like 'totaallyy', but hey, seems to have worked for half the Karma, I think we should atleast try, its the moral new world and all! besides, we're doing nothing anyway.

You know Shah i like you for some reason, i shouldn't but i do

I would say 2 out of the first three, take your pick.

Okey dokey...

Fact: ODN pussied out of GWII. Or, to be non-opinionated: ODN did not enter GWII when most of the rest of the world did, and they had political reasons to fight (as later seen in the baiting of Legion during GWIII).

Fact: ODN left a war (GWIII) when the people fighting the common enemy were still at war.

Fact: ODN didn't defend Legion when they got stomped.

• Staying out of GW2? well personally i always felt it was wrong for ODN & Legion to not enter that conflict (i was infact on the verge of quitting ODN over it and joining the ICP), but the fact is that both sets of leaders at the time decided not to enter and were not necessarily obligated to enter is concrete. So i am eager to know how come ODN is blamed specifically for not entering?? (it was a joint Orrple decision or are the haters conveniently forgetting that?), was there a secret treaty i missed at the time? moral obligation? perhaps but certainly no legal one.
  
• Ah yes GW3, my own recollection as a footsoldier was that war was done and dusted (i.e lost beyond all doubt) but i do see why CDS peeps would be pissed at being left alone. We sought peace as did many others so i fail to see what the big deal is in that regard...however the signing on with GOONS afterwards was wrong (and did stick in my craw at the time).
  
• As for Legion Sunstar did cover that beauty earlier, would you be saying that we were wrong to listen to Legion's request at the time??
  

Now of course as i have said many times before on these boards ODN has at times been guilty of making terrible choices but those three in particular do not count in my eyes as being in that league with the sole exception of not entering GW2 which is strictly my own personal view, so pray tell William have i got it all wrong? am i talking out of my $@!?

Edited November 12, 2009 by Cataduanes

[andyt2k]

Now of course as i have said many times before on these boards ODN has at times been guilty of making terrible choices.

I haven't seen this very often from ODN members and definitely not gov members.

Say what you want about the NpO, we've admitted when we've made mistakes none of us deny the mistakes the alliance has made, there are a number of internal and many external posts by gov and general membership, clearing up misunderstandings and holding our hands up when it's actually been our fault

[Cataduanes]

I haven't seen this very often from ODN members and definitely not gov members.

Well surely you have seen this from me? , and up until last week i was govt.

[Captain Flinders]

Haven't posted in a while. May as well throw some poison around.

TOP - 6 Decent people.

MHA - 5 Neither here nor there. Could be lower due to lame antics.

Sparta - 7 Solid group.

NpO - 8 Very solid group.

IRON - 3 Rather lame.

ODN - 3 More lame.

FARK - 6 Silent but deadly.

GPA - 5 Boring.

NPO - 4 The jury is still out for me. Though I'm of a largely negative mind towards these guys.

FOK - 5 Half decent but rather big for their britches if you ask me.

MK - 7 Solid group.

WTF - 4 Exceedingly boring.

TOOL - 3 Mostly lame.

TDO - 3 And the boring train keeps a rollin'.

VE - 8 Their strong stance with allies as of late impresses me greatly.

Legion - 3 Lame duck pretending to have changed his tone.

RoK - 6 Decent.

GATO - 6 I expect much better from them. Probably shouldn't though.

CSN - 4 Need to find their voice more often. Need to stand for what is right behind the scenes as well as in the spotlight.

Athens - 8 Very solid group.

Gremlins - 7 I've been waffling on these folks as of late.

MCXA - 4 Not much to speak of really.

UPN - 3 Strike me as the lapdog variety. Nothing to back this up with really, just a general feeling.

RIA - 7 Rather interesting and entertaining.

STA - 8 Always a good group to watch. Hell, a good group to emulate.

Invicta - 3 Another group of followers who like to pretend they are bigguns.

RnR - 5 A solid "meh".

MASH - 4 Used to be rather cool. Nothing to speak of anymore.

NADC - 5 I rather enjoy their visual art. Not much else to enjoy though. Strike me as unorganized in a sense of general vision.

WAPA - 4 Poor alignment choices for an otherwise pleasant group.

NV - 9 As steadfast a group as you will ever find. Not proud of every move they've made but they've certainly make the right decisions more often than not.

NSO - 5 Their bark is far more plentiful and worse than their bite.

NEW - 7 Their soft-spoken nature and killer instinct impresses me.

MA - 3 The sins of the father (or mother) run deep.

Umbrella - 7 I like these guys.

FAN - 7 I don't have much ti judge from but what I have is mighty impressive.

LoSS - 6 I'm on the fense. Still waiting to see where these new roads take them.

TSO - 2 I can't help but look down upon their shaky beginning. That was just all wrong.

NATO - 7 Doing much better as of late I find.

Nordreich - Heh, need i bother?

GR - 8 I like these guys a lot.

Vanguard - 8 These guys too.

GOD - 3 Not worth the trouble.

FoB - 6 Seems like a good bunch.

PC - 7 Like the warrior spirit that is encouraged in here.

Valhalla - 2 Lame ducks.

GGA - 3 More lame ducks.

TPF - Lamest duck.

[Lord Brendan]

The NpO never activated any treaty with the STA in the Karma War. The STA declared on ML for attacking our MDP allies, MK and declared on DOOM for attacking our MDP allies, the NSO. The STA never sought assistance from the NpO as we were aware of their policy in the Karma War.

The NpO attacked DOOM in defence of the NSO, not the STA. NpO later attacked ML targets after ML declared on NpO in defence of DOOM.

The Polar Declaration of War is in complete contradiction with your post:

Effective immediately, the New Polar Order declares a state of war to exist between itself and DOOM.

EDIT 2: Polaris is entering into this conflict via Article III of the "Permafrost" treaty between Polaris and the Siberian Tiger Alliance. The relevant text of the treaty can be found in this post

Not to mention the earlier declaration I'm unable to find that stated NpO would only be honoring it's treaties with STA.

When you say that we only honored one treaty you are implying that we dishonored all the other treaties and this is true, so no you are wrong. And what we did is exactly opposite of what ODN did:

(quotes)

Can you see the difference? If you cannot I'm wasting my time.

You've quoted this announcement to me before, and it doesn't prove your point now anymore than it ever has. Basically it's an example of exactly what I'm criticizing you for. You're both doing the same thing: choosing which treaties to honor. The difference is that ODN is honest about it, and declares upfront exactly what they are doing. Polar on the other hand pulls out "We support all our allies... we're just not going to help them". You can say that you're supporting them as much as you want, your words don't make it so; actions do.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[Tygaland]

The Polar Declaration of War is in complete contradiction with your post:

I'll leave it up to the NpO to explain that one. But what I said was true, the NpO did not enact any treaty with the STA in the Karma War and they attacked DOOM due to their attack on the NSO.

[raasaa]

@ Lord Brendan

We offered. They accepted.

No hard feelings DOOM and Molon Labe. Polaris never had a personal stake in this conflict and we still do not. However, we take the protection of our Tigers and their immediate friends (like NSO) very seriously.

I believe that he does mention "NSO" in his post. They offered assistance to STA...and STA accepted...so NpO rolled in....

[D34th]

You've quoted this announcement to me before, and it doesn't prove your point now anymore than it ever has. Basically it's an example of exactly what I'm criticizing you for. You're both doing the same thing: choosing which treaties to honor. The difference is that ODN is honest about it, and declares upfront exactly what they are doing. Polar on the other hand pulls out "We support all our allies... we're just not going to help them". You can say that you're supporting them as much as you want, your words don't make it so; actions do.

So as I said I'm wasting my time with you.

[dragonknight1000]

Interesting topic, i'll try my best to give some ratings too

5 is neutral, mostly because never get in touch with these alliances, please notice that we are open to every alliances in PB. Just please be patient with our poor english

TOP 5

MHA 5

Sparta 6, +1 for medix and Hix, also RIP maimunah

NpO 6

IRON 5

ODN 6, +1 for Cataduanes

FARK 5

GPA 6

NPO 5

FOK 7, bunch of cool guys and also great raiders

MK 8, they sent super awesome diplomats to us

WTF 5

TOOL 8, TOOL Anime Club has been my fave in their board also i heard that Mia is pretty girl

TDO 5

VE 5

Legion 5

RoK 6, have a few guys i barely know, and they are cool

GATO 5

CSN 5

Athens 6, +1 for Jgoods

Gremlins 5

MCXA 5

UPN 5

RIA 5

STA 6, +1 for my old friends Skippy

Invicta 5

RnR 6, +1 for Lyner

MASH 5

NADC 5

WAPA 8, very good friends of NEW

NV 5

NSO 5

NEW no need to rated, since it's a place i proudly call home

MA 6, +1 for Zilla

Umbrella 5

FAN 7, don't know them but high credits to survive this far. That's awesome surviving skill. I'd like to learn from them

LoSS 5

TSO 5

NATO 5

Nordreich 5

GR 7, great opponent and very honorable

Vanguard 5

GOD 7, Xiph+Z+Aloop+typa+Sexy+NoFish+many more = cool guys

FoB 5

PC 6, was good friends of ours, but lost contact recently

Valhalla 5

GGA 5

TPF 9, their loyalty towards allies is unmeasureable

Thank you for rating NEW whether it's good or bad, we will take that for reference in the future

your welcome on the Anime Club * and Mia's win (though you need to visit TOOL more, I'll swing by the irc later for my end)

[Drostan]

It's easy to point fingers when people's treaty commitments get complicated, and a lot of both occurred during the Karma war. It's impossible to cast only one stone when discussing this.

All I learned from it is that people should sign less treaties and enter wars whenever they feel like it is appropriate or someone needs help. To my mind, the treaty web bears most of the responsibility of history's curb stomps. Protectionist alliances should simply sign treaties with TOP, Sparta, NpO, MK, RIA, Valhalla, etc and then there's no danger of them ever having to fight again. *sigh*

I will have a lot of respect for the first alliance who just stops playing by the old rules and lets its moral/friendship compass guide its actions instead of hiding behind treaties. I can only imagine how much more exciting this world would be. Of course, chances are that the rest of the world would immediately treaty-up against them and ensure that no fresh air be let in. And the circle of curb stomps continues.

[Buds The Man]

A bad history with Caffine is certainly not exclusive to MA. I'd talk to Echelon in regards to that particular term before making any accusations.

As a close ally of Vanguard, we would be more than happy to share documentation in regards to this issue.

Oh Sunshine I am not the one that looks silly here... You know the old saying about assumptions right?

QFT there are many that had issues with Echelon and Caffine that were allies to both MA and GOD. Caffine was a notorious bully when he had the backing of blue and to be fair Tela was usually right there with him. If you want to know more hit me up some time or Xiph or Kait for that matter as Im sure they remember the incident with Caffine.

[Archon]

I will have a lot of respect for the first alliance who just stops playing by the old rules and lets its moral/friendship compass guide its actions instead of hiding behind treaties. I can only imagine how much more exciting this world would be. Of course, chances are that the rest of the world would immediately treaty-up against them and ensure that no fresh air be let in. And the circle of curb stomps continues.

I'm not sure why you can't just propose a solution wherein you only sign treaties in accordance with your moral/friendship compass. Worked out p well for MK, 1 curbstomp to 1 victory is a decent ratio in global wars given how we approached FA. (not really sure how to classify UJW, as it wasn't really a curbstomp in the classic sense)

[Bob Janova]

There are a lot of alliances that work like that. C&G and Citadel are two blocs I'm familiar with where it's the guiding principle, and I expect Frostbite and SF members will come and say that it is for them too. The only experiment in 'We don't need treaties, our friends know who they are' ended with those 'friends' forcing Viridia into disbandment, so it's hardly surprising that no-one wants to repeat it.

[Lord Brendan]

I'll leave it up to the NpO to explain that one. But what I said was true, the NpO did not enact any treaty with the STA in the Karma War and they attacked DOOM due to their attack on the NSO.

(quote)

I believe that he does mention "NSO" in his post. They offered assistance to STA...and STA accepted...so NpO rolled in....

Even if that war declaration by Polar is incorrect/misleading, it doesn't matter if NpO decided to only activate treaties with STA or if they decided to only activate treaties with STA and NSO. In either case, they were choosing which allies they wanted to help and which they wanted to be distanced from. Once again, exactly the same as ODN, except less honest.

So as I said I'm wasting my time with you.

If your opinion is already set in stone despite the facts, then yes, you are wasting your time here. You have yet to tell me how your actions and ODN's are any different. So Grub made an announcement saying you were supporting all your allies. That proves nothing, because you didn't support all your allies: you only supported STA (or STA and NSO).

Given the situation you were in I don't particularily object to that; it's the fact that now you're pretending you didn't that I object to.

[mpol777]

The only experiment in 'We don't need treaties, our friends know who they are' ended with those 'friends' forcing Viridia into disbandment, so it's hardly surprising that no-one wants to repeat it.

*cough*

[rsoxbronco1]

All I learned from it is that people should sign less treaties and enter wars whenever they feel like it is appropriate or someone needs help. To my mind, the treaty web bears most of the responsibility of history's curb stomps. Protectionist alliances should simply sign treaties with TOP, Sparta, NpO, MK, RIA, Valhalla, etc and then there's no danger of them ever having to fight again. *sigh*

It's the only reason we're treaty partners with Sparta and MK.

[Buds The Man]

Even if that war declaration by Polar is incorrect/misleading, it doesn't matter if NpO decided to only activate treaties with STA or if they decided to only activate treaties with STA and NSO. In either case, they were choosing which allies they wanted to help and which they wanted to be distanced from. Once again, exactly the same as ODN, except less honest.

If your opinion is already set in stone despite the facts, then yes, you are wasting your time here. You have yet to tell me how your actions and ODN's are any different. So Grub made an announcement saying you were supporting all your allies. That proves nothing, because you didn't support all your allies: you only supported STA (or STA and NSO).

Given the situation you were in I don't particularily object to that; it's the fact that now you're pretending you didn't that I object to.

Brendan Polar was very clear to its allies on the other side that the only way they would enter is in defense of STA which is what they did. Grub had little to no interest in the Karma coalition and was very upfront about it. I dont think comparing them to ODN is an apples to apples comparision. NpO acted very well with its treaty partners (at least with us)and we held no ill will with their decision at the time.

[Bob Janova]

*cough*

Well yours was more 'we'll invalidate our treaties by declaring on a protectorate of our main ally' – and you were kept down for a long time (several months even not counting the second war) as well. I don't think that's a path many alliances would choose either.

[Azaghul]

Well yours was more 'we'll invalidate our treaties by declaring on a protectorate of our main ally' – and you were kept down for a long time (several months even not counting the second war) as well. I don't think that's a path many alliances would choose either.

I believe he's not referring to the past, but what FAN is doing now after their war with the NPO ended.

[Trinite]

I believe he's not referring to the past, but what FAN is doing now after their war with the NPO ended.

Or maybe their secret treaty phase. FAN does a lot of crazy things.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Trinite

[Lord Brendan]

Brendan Polar was very clear to its allies on the other side that the only way they would enter is in defense of STA which is what they did. Grub had little to no interest in the Karma coalition and was very upfront about it. I dont think comparing them to ODN is an apples to apples comparision. NpO acted very well with its treaty partners (at least with us)and we held no ill will with their decision at the time.

Not sure how the first sentence contradicts my stance in any way. However I'd like to highlight that Polar entered via an optional aggression clause with STA, not one of mandatory defense (STA having declared on DOOM and not the other way around).

I will admit that one difference is how the two alliance's respective alliances reacted to the fact that their treaties were considered inferior; Polar and Valhalla definitely seem to be on better terms than ODN and IRON. To be fair however, ODN still holds treaties with UPN and GGA. I believe the rift with IRON stems from more than just ODN's actions in the Karma War.

Honestly, to be extremely fair, we knew exactly what the result of karma was going to be and we did so well before shots were fired.

A bit of a tangent here, but how long before the war would you say you knew who would win?