Regarding peace terms with TPF

[John Michaels]

SethB spied.

OV refused to kick him out.

OV was rolled.

Karma saw that as the perfect time to launch their planned attacks.

TORN and NPO threw the first punch; TPF did the negotiating; SethB did the spying that began it all.

To say that TPF is responsible, or that NPO is responsible is victor's history. To then repeat the same line again and again is either indicative of a mental condition or someone being willfully ignorant.

Your argument is illogical, nonfactual, and absurd. It is historical revisionism at its worst, a lazy, idiotic simplification of events that stands in blatant contrast to the reality of the situation at hand. The truth is you obtained logs of Sethb accepting information from a Blackstone Collusion member. Was he justified in doing so? I don't know. If your Dear Leader Moo-Cows is to be believed, then no, this is not a crime, because after all, as he said, "You know as well as I do that every alliance accepts information." Now, if we believe that by every all alliances, and by alliances he is referring nations grouping together for the sake of common interests, then isn't he, in no small part, saying that his alliance does the same thing? After all, it has happened before. In June of 2006, The second in command of the Order, Vladimir, accepted information from a LUE spy, did he not? Although there are certainly other factors at work here (and if someone would like to discuss this, I will oblige, time willing of course), but by your own simplistic logic, Vladimir did exactly what sethb did. Was he kicked from his alliance? Was he ZI'd for doing so? No, not really. In fact, he still holds a distinguished position in the alliance and was never punished in the slightest beyond a public apology. Clearly, this is a double standard at work here. Following the precedent your alliance set in this situation, OV was perfectly justified in refusing your demands. Therefore, OV and VE, by the statement of your leader and the precedent of your alliance's actions, were justified in stating sethb would not be kicked out of his alliance and ZI'd.

Now that we have established your reasons for entering the war were illogical, let us get to the matter of blame itself. If there was no logical, concrete reason for war, that means the NPO was unjustified in attacking Ordo Verde. It is here you regale us with what is clearly a loaded sentence, "Karma saw that as the perfect time to launch their planned attacks." I think we all know what Arcades is implying here. He is implying that Karma are the aggressors, that they were unjustified in attacking OV. Now, as we have explored, this statement ignores the fact that the NPO, by their own precedent, declared an unjustified war upon Ordo Verde. With the treaties the majority of Karma nations had directly or indirectly with OV, they were legally justified in joining in the war. Now comes the occusations that Karma committed the horrible crime, that most unspeakable of evils, of reaching out to their friends in this world and working towards common defense. Clearly, this is a reprehensible crime that- oh, wait, sorry? NPO has been doing this for the better part of three years? Forgive me then. In all seriousness, your alliance had shown a continued belligerence towards their alliances. The Karma War, if anything, legitimizes these fears, because the NPO did exactly what Karma thought they would. To seek allies in the event an alliance that has shown a tendency to declare wars for reasons that contradict the precedent they themselves have set is not moustache-twirling shenanigans. It is common sense.

What comes across from this post, more than anything else, is a cognitive dissonance of enormous degree. That the NPO and TPF's actions in instigating and starting the largest war Cybernations has ever seen cannot be their fault, that the Order and their allies are incapable of fault. You blame upon us what should indeed rightfully be blamed upon your own government, not upon those of us who chose to defend our friends and allies. Let us put a stop to these mindless fallacies, this endless mockery of the historical record, this desecration of logic and reasoning. The fault in this situation is solely and completely that of the New Pacific Order and The Phoenix Federation. Any arguments to the contrary are merely the delusions of the hopelessly gone and at worst cynical enaction of the old proverb that all by repeating a lie over and over, you make it fact. You don't and in this case you are wrong, completely and unequivocally. Your post is a waste of data and utterly lacking in any redeeming value. Thank you and have a nice day.

[sir justin]

Wait, so is it cool now to publicly announce terms that the other side won't accept?

I remember Moo being frowned upon for much the same thing.

No u!

[Delta1212]

Like I said before:

"You want reps. I understand these pesky alliances have a tendency to fight back when you ask them for money and gets in the way of you being Captain Karma: I Save The World And I Am Awesome, but that's not how "peace" works."

Actually, that's pretty much exactly how it has worked for the last three and a half years...

[Seerow]

Okay I could ALMOST see the argument when record setting reps were being set that they were too harsh and deserved to be dropped.

But this? This could be paid off easily within a month or two. The only argument against it I've heard is "TPF doesn't owe PC anything. They were merciful when they had PC on the ropes and didn't force them to disband, so we should get a free ride"

To be honest, I know almost nothing of the bad blood between TPF and PC except that it exists, but I'm certain theres more to it than TPF lets on, or PC wouldn't have the hard-on for killing them. (The comparison I've gotten from others is TPF:PC::NPO:MK). Please get off your high horses and sit down to negotiate. -You- chose to make this war last as long as it has, since you decided to stick in it until NPO surrendered, that gives you no positioning to baww for lower reps. I know Archon would have been happy to let you guys off a month ago at the time I came back to MK, and almost certainly before that.

Man up and take the terms on the table. You have no position from which to argue you don't deserve it. The war is over, you get to pay like everyone else.

[HeinousOne]

Flak attack can't read, apparently.

I guess you can't either.

As for our government not fighting in the war, or not being ZIed, it's you who's been lied to by your leaders then. The only one who didn't fight in the war was Millionario, he's head of the bank.

Right, as stated though I provided for both contingencies. If that leadership statement was outdated you could always provide a new one to back up your claim of new leadership. Then again, if you did that you would have to defend why they didnt change the course of the NPO.

You are oversimplifying again. You speak of the leaders actions during the war yet I am speaking of the Leaders' actions that Led to the war. Understand the difference? Its oh so not subtle.

[UberSpion]

Any thread with Bob Sanders actively posting is a hilarious thread indeed

[Desperado]

Too bad these are different than what was offered.

[Lord GVChamp]

Actually, that's pretty much exactly how it has worked for the last three and a half years...

And it ain't changing much. All well and good for me, but hell if I'm not confused why the next Global Political Leader thinks I'm going to buy his propaganda when I didn't buy the last fella's.

[sir justin]

So because you opted to chose an unrestrained fighting strategy to inflict the most damage upon the alliances you were engaged with they should then let you off easier because of it? I personally would expect to see greater reparations if my alliance had taken this approach.

Wait, so is it now cool to remain in peace mode?

Cuz not being in "hippy mode" is a stupid "unrestrained fighting strategy"?

No u!

[HeinousOne]

Too bad these are different than what was offered.

Just say what was offered then if it was actually different.

[Ogaden]

For those of us who don't want to put together the fragmented pieces of this argument...tell us...

Why does it matter whether the current NPO leadership was in leadership a year ago over simply being in NPO a year ago? In either case, they should have known what their alliance did.

An alliance is a group of nations, is why.

[Zeta Defender]

Then they should have taken individual terms when offered.

Its called honor and knowing what being in an alliance is. If STA was in the same boat for your actions I would hope your own advice doesn't come to bite you in the back.

Your leadership was. Funny, when some folks were trying to bring more accountability into the NPO so that the BR might have more say in things it was considered unpatriotic. Now you want to claim ignorance? Sorry, not gonna fly BR. Maybe now though you guys wont allow your leaders to get away with as much as they used to.

You have not liked us since you left all that time ago. You dislike the NPO as you say for the actions of the few yet in a war against 19 alliances the Body Republic stuck with their leaders till the end. What does that say for you, just because you say the NPO is this or that, doesn't make it true. For the record, stop saying the BR has no say, the power of the Order is in both working together the meritocracy and the Body Republic. Its has worked for over 3 yrs here and countless yrs in the other world.

[deathcat]

I have never said good riddance to anyone.

The issue is, regardless of whether your nation accepted reps, you were a member of an alliance that demanded them. The peace terms in war are handed out to alliances by alliances, not individuals. Your alliance demanded reps when they stomped alliances aggressively and now your alliance is asked to do the same when they lose a war. Them's the breaks. [ooc]Best of luck in RL[/ooc]

Tyga.. my friend.. the Good riddance wasn't a comment from you. .. read back. Vanguard's Prototyperuler accused me of leaving when things got tough and couldn't Curbstomp anyone anymore.. not the case and I wasn't around for ANY rep requests in TPF.

I will stop with this pointless character defense.. I am proud of my OWF and CN record.

Other than that.. best of luck my white sphere brother.

oo/

[Un4Gvn1]

PC, what would you say to this:

We (PC and TPF) continue our wars. TPF peaces out with all other alliances and pays all other reps:

180 million to Federation of Buccaneers

9,000 tech to Mushroom Kingdom

120 million to Avalanche

What say you, TwistedRebel?

[Delta1212]

And it ain't changing much. All well and good for me, but hell if I'm not confused why the next Global Political Leader thinks I'm going to buy his propaganda when I didn't buy the last fella's.

I give up.

[Rafael Nadal]

BURN THE COUCH!

Then cook the burrito!

Made out of the most delicious meat of all.... >_>

So you don't want peace. You want reps. I understand these pesky alliances have a tendency to fight back when you ask them for money and gets in the way of you being Captain Karma: I Save The World And I Am Awesome, but that's not how "peace" works.

Thank you.

No, it is not stupid. Obviously I don't WANT a million dollars. What I WANT is a better life for myself, and a million dollars is a tool to get that. This is obvious to anyone who sits down and thinks for more than two seconds.

Now since this takes all of about two seconds to figure out, I am rather insulted when I am being lied to in the OP, when the lie is so blatantly obvious.

It's a matter of priorities. MK and their friends don't put peace very high on the priority list.

TPF isn't continuing the war. TPF is 75% in peace mode. It literally can't continue the war. This is how "Karma" does business.

I guess if TPF really wanted peace, they'd accept these terms. However, since they have not, I assume TPF does not desire peace.

[Vol Navy]

This thread is about an alliances actions being paid for by the alliance, not one mans past actions.

Skipping ahead here and not sure if it was responded to but the "crimes" we are paying for are being paid to Poison Clan. You know, the TPF splinter alliance made up of many ex-TPF and ex TPF gov when the "crimes" we are paying for were being committed.

[UberSpion]

Your argument is illogical, nonfactual, and absurd. It is historical revisionism at its worst, a lazy, idiotic simplification of events that stands in blatant contrast to the reality of the situation at hand. The truth is you obtained logs of Sethb accepting information from a Blackstone Collusion member. Was he justified in doing so? I don't know. If your Dear Leader Moo-Cows is to be believed, then no, this is not a crime, because after all, as he said, "You know as well as I do that every alliance accepts information." Now, if we believe that by every all alliances, and by alliances he is referring nations grouping together for the sake of common interests, then isn't he, in no small part, saying that his alliance does the same thing? After all, it has happened before. In June of 2006, The second in command of the Order, Vladimir, accepted information from a LUE spy, did he not? Although there are certainly other factors at work here (and if someone would like to discuss this, I will oblige, time willing of course), but by your own simplistic logic, Vladimir did exactly what sethb did. Was he kicked from his alliance? Was he ZI'd for doing so? No, not really. In fact, he still holds a distinguished position in the alliance and was never punished in the slightest beyond a public apology. Clearly, this is a double standard at work here. Following the precedent your alliance set in this situation, OV was perfectly justified in refusing your demands. Therefore, OV and VE, by the statement of your leader and the precedent of your alliance's actions, were justified in stating sethb would not be kicked out of his alliance and ZI'd.

Now that we have established your reasons for entering the war were illogical, let us get to the matter of blame itself. If there was no logical, concrete reason for war, that means the NPO was unjustified in attacking Ordo Verde. It is here you regale us with what is clearly a loaded sentence, "Karma saw that as the perfect time to launch their planned attacks." I think we all know what Arcades is implying here. He is implying that Karma are the aggressors, that they were unjustified in attacking OV. Now, as we have explored, this statement ignores the fact that the NPO, by their own precedent, declared an unjustified war upon Ordo Verde. With the treaties the majority of Karma nations had directly or indirectly with OV, they were legally justified in joining in the war. Now comes the occusations that Karma committed the horrible crime, that most unspeakable of evils, of reaching out to their friends in this world and working towards common defense. Clearly, this is a reprehensible crime that- oh, wait, sorry? NPO has been doing this for the better part of three years? Forgive me then. In all seriousness, your alliance had shown a continued belligerence towards their alliances. The Karma War, if anything, legitimizes these fears, because the NPO did exactly what Karma thought they would. To seek allies in the event an alliance that has shown a tendency to declare wars for reasons that contradict the precedent they themselves have set is not moustache-twirling shenanigans. It is common sense.

What comes across from this post, more than anything else, is a cognitive dissonance of enormous degree. That the NPO and TPF's actions in instigating and starting the largest war Cybernations has ever seen cannot be their fault, that the Order and their allies are incapable of fault. You blame upon us what should indeed rightfully be blamed upon your own government, not upon those of us who chose to defend our friends and allies. Let us put a stop to these mindless fallacies, this endless mockery of the historical record, this desecration of logic and reasoning. The fault in this situation is solely and completely that of the New Pacific Order and The Phoenix Federation. Any arguments to the contrary are merely the delusions of the hopelessly gone and at worst cynical enaction of the old proverb that all by repeating a lie over and over, you make it fact. You don't and in this case you are wrong, completely and unequivocally. Your post is a waste of data and utterly lacking in any redeeming value. Thank you and have a nice day.

While an excellent read, I would have to say that the person you are quoting is the same guy that posted this gem...

#1 rule in CN is to not let the past be forgotten..

I wouldn't really take it for a grain of salt, sadly the nubile nations that haven't found their historical mate will read it as truth. So keep spreading the good word.

Edited July 25, 2009 by UberSpion

[astronaut jones]

Okay I could ALMOST see the argument when record setting reps were being set that they were too harsh and deserved to be dropped.

But this? This could be paid off easily within a month or two. The only argument against it I've heard is "TPF doesn't owe PC anything. They were merciful when they had PC on the ropes and didn't force them to disband, so we should get a free ride"

To be honest, I know almost nothing of the bad blood between TPF and PC except that it exists, but I'm certain theres more to it than TPF lets on, or PC wouldn't have the hard-on for killing them. (The comparison I've gotten from others is TPF:PC::NPO:MK). Please get off your high horses and sit down to negotiate. -You- chose to make this war last as long as it has, since you decided to stick in it until NPO surrendered, that gives you no positioning to baww for lower reps. I know Archon would have been happy to let you guys off a month ago at the time I came back to MK, and almost certainly before that.

Man up and take the terms on the table. You have no position from which to argue you don't deserve it. The war is over, you get to pay like everyone else.

TPF accused PC of recruiting from them, constantly threatened to roll them in their early days, made them sign on to OPP, wanted out, got out, still wanted to roll them, still constant threats over recruiting that just simply didn't happen. Then the stuff I wasn't there for, and then I came back, STILL wanted to roll them, STILL threatening, etc. etc. etc.

Basically what TPF did was taunt a rabid dog for a year, always treating it poorly and threatening to kill it.. then PC got out.

I kind of expected nothing less than this.

[Tygaland]

Its called honor and knowing what being in an alliance is. If STA was in the same boat for your actions I would hope your own advice doesn't come to bite you in the back.

My point being that if they wanted to remove themselves from their government's actions and their alliance's past and to be treated as an individual, then they had an option to do so.

[HeinousOne]

You have not liked us since you left all that time ago. You dislike the NPO as you say for the actions of the few yet in a war against 19 alliances the Body Republic stuck with their leaders till the end. What does that say for you, just because you say the NPO is this or that, doesn't make it true. For the record, stop saying the BR has no say, the power of the Order is in both working together the meritocracy and the Body Republic. Its has worked for over 3 yrs here and countless yrs in the other world.

Are you actually attempting to call me dishonorable for leaving NPO when I did and for the reasons that I did? I was actually exhonerated (spelling?) for why I was silenced from posting on these forums yet I had had enough of the singled out treatment. Very funny how the world thought I was nothing but an NPO mouthpiece yet those illustrious leaders seemed to despise me because they werent actually controlling me.

Moo was just about to tell me my silence was lifted but I beat him to the punch by letting him know my resignation thread was on the forum. He asked me to reconsider but I stuck to my principles that if the alliance was going to show that much lack of appreciation towards me then they were not going to have the power that my nation would confer to them. Oh so dishonorable right?

There is nothing wrong with sticking with your alliance in wartime, even if your leaders are dolts for getting you in such a position. To not seek a change in the system after such a drastic failure by leadership would mean it is the BR that are the dolts.

You talk about how it "worked" for three years but what has that led to? Wow, look at that wonderful track history you guys have and those wonderful and glorious nations that three years of being on top has earned you. Congratulations, you have completely outmaneuvered me Zeta. Yet another military victory under your belt.

Just do me one favor though, you mind not publically talking about my true feelings for NPO leadership? There are still a few out there who would want to call me an NPO sympathizer and I find it far too amusing for that to stop just yet.

[Fort Pitt]

SethB spied.

OV refused to kick him out.

OV was rolled.

Karma saw that as the perfect time to launch their planned attacks.

TORN and NPO threw the first punch; TPF did the negotiating; SethB did the spying that began it all.

To say that TPF is responsible, or that NPO is responsible is victor's history. To then repeat the same line again and again is either indicative of a mental condition or someone being willfully ignorant.

How about the literal reason.

SethB was handed information and passed it on.

OV was attacked unjustly by NPO.

NPO's allies did not support this move.

Via treaties, Karma was formed and NPO lost.

TORN was almost back stabbed by NPO so they gave peace before it was too late.

TPF is not responsible, but TPF fully supported NPO's actions as far as I have had the ability to see, thus TPF is just as guilty as NPO is.

NPO has back stabbed allies many times before, and set up traps like this. I don't know how many times the 'espionage' card has been played by NPO, but its getting overused by them. They made one fatal mistake, they burned their bridges as they went across, they made the majority of Bob their enemy by bullying smaller and less powerful alliances and demanding more out of them than they could actually offer. Even if SethB spied, you do not kill the alliance for one mans actions, you just kill that man.

[kevin32891]

PC, what would you say to this:

We (PC and TPF) continue our wars. TPF peaces out with all other alliances and pays all other reps:

180 million to Federation of Buccaneers

9,000 tech to Mushroom Kingdom

120 million to Avalanche

What say you, TwistedRebel?

That wouldn't be fair to PC because you would out number them.

[Tygaland]

Tyga.. my friend.. the Good riddance wasn't a comment from you. .. read back. Vanguard's Prototyperuler accused me of leaving when things got tough and couldn't Curbstomp anyone anymore.. not the case and I wasn't around for ANY rep requests in TPF.

I will stop with this pointless character defense.. I am proud of my OWF and CN record.

Other than that.. best of luck my white sphere brother.

oo/

I know, but it wouldn't be the first time others' words were taken as mine.

If you are happy with your CN and OWF record then that is all that matters. Farewell!

[kingzog]

Look, I have no particular love for The Phoenix Federation, but....

The "we want peace" line is a bit disingenuous when followed by eight pages of "gimme gimme gimme."

The Phoenix Federation has a few more members than Nordreich, but less than half of both the total and average (per nation) nation strength. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of them are bill-locked. Furthermore, I doubt very much that mhawk made this decision without any input from his government, so any suggestion that he's letting his ego get ahead of his alliance's best interests is off the mark.

My feeling is that if an alliance enters a war because of a treaty, then their terms should be adjusted accordingly.

The point is that you should have milked more from the Great Red Cow.