Instrument of Surrender for the New Pacific Order

[ChairmanHal]

No receiving tech from outside alliances? Good. However I personally was expecting a blanket restriction on aid that wasn't reparations (including monetary or internal tech deals). Seeing this as not the case is somewhat disappointing given that the two weeks of war were traded out for some more money and the outside tech restriction.

Unless I'm reading that wrong.

There is also a restriction on building specific military wonders and FAC. That's new I believe.

Also...

Current NPO Tech: 348,018

Tech owed: 350,000

With no ability to do outside tech deals, they'll be hamstrung for a good long while. Even when they come back, they'll be at a tech disadvantage long after in relation to their peer alliances.

[Uncle Stalin]

Thank god its over, and with good terms too. Now TPF just needs to surrender and this war'll be over.

[Earogema]

Just like the treaty of Versailles..... they may be down... they may be brutalized and hurt by terms of surrender.... but we all know what happened a decade later...

Yeah, they lost.

Again.

[Delta1212]

Just like the treaty of Versailles..... they may be down... they may be brutalized and hurt by terms of surrender.... but we all know what happened a decade later...

They got their nation turned to rubble, split in half and their capital divided up among the world powers?

[nerolocutus]

Yeah, they lost.

Again.

At the cost of how many (pixels)?

I doubt this is the end.

[Fenix]

Congrats to NPO for finally getting peace. It has been an honor to fight along side you during this conflict. Good Luck during the rebuild.

-Cyllabus

[mattski133]

Glad it's over. The nations I fought were respectful and good opponents.

I am also glad to see that Karma maintained a willingness to negotiate while having the upper hand.

And no, MOON is not asking for reps for various reasons.

[Finster Baby]

There is also a restriction on building specific military wonders and FAC. That's new I believe.

Also...

Current NPO Tech: 348,018

Tech owed: 350,000

With no ability to do outside tech deals, they'll be hamstrung for a good long while. Even when they come back, they'll be at a tech disadvantage long after in relation to their peer alliances.

Nevermind the outside deals, they can't even move technology internally so that it can be used for reparations payments.

I understand there was an element of revenge in these terms, but the more I read them, the more they stink. This isn't designed to punish for past crimes, its designed to practically destroy the NPO.

Congrats on peace tho. If anyone can get past these terms and start to prosper, it will be the NPO.

Also, to satisfy my curiousity, does Karma know how the payments will be broken down?

EDIT: One last thing - Any IRON member posting here BETTER keep it respectful (Looks DIRECTLY at Prideassassin)

Edited July 20, 2009 by FinsterBaby

[Vladimir]

Since it keeps coming up from those who have never read the noted article, I will remind people that my definition of victory in the Great Patriotic War was that we were winning militarily. That is to say, coaLUEtion alliances were actively surrendering to us, and had the war continued it was clear that LUE or whoever else stayed to the end would have ended up doing likewise (hence why there was effectively a white peace, rather than the demand for disbandment that the coaLUEtion started out with when they thought they were winning).

It had nothing to do with objectives (in fact I state in the article itself that neither side properly achieved theirs) nor did it have anything to do with the second and third great wars (again, as I state in the article itself). On this basis the FAN claim is specious, as would be any suggestion that I could potentially say the same about this war.

I won't get dragged into a debate on any of this as it isn't the place, just clarifying my position on it for all those still unable to understand it. If there are any questions I humbly request that you read the text and then, if any remain, find me on IRC where I will cheerfully oblige.

[Frankdolf]

At the cost of how many (pixels)?

I doubt this is the end.

Well, if losing pixels bothers you, you could always surrender a week into the war

[thedestro]

I knew this day would come a long time ago

[shilo]

Nevermind the outside deals, they can't even move technology internally so that it can be used for reparations payments.

I understand there was an element of revenge in these terms, but the more I read them, the more they stink. This isn't designed to punish for past crimes, its designed to practically destroy the NPO.

Congrats on peace tho. If anyone can get past these terms and start to prosper, it will be the NPO.

Also, to satisfy my curiousity, does Karma know how the payments will be broken down?

To be fair, terms like perma-banning and ziing government members are missing, perma-ziing members that did not leave peace-mode as well, taking control of forums, installing a viceroy, or even simply not giving peace are all things that are missing.

The economic terms are harsh, but deserved and expected.

If those terms were to destroy NPO, I'd first be quite surprised, and second rather confident the source would be internal conflict, not the terms that can be satisfied by an alliance with the size of NPO and its appearent ability to organize aid flows.

It's rather difficult to turn those terms into "you just want to destroy NPO via peace-terms", not even NPO members are attempting to do so, knowing that that is not the case.

[liam riordan]

Good Lord, I never, ever thought I'd ever see the day... All I can say is fair play to Karma in bringing down such a behemoth.

Also, well done to all who played a part in this virtual historic day. Well played.

[Finster Baby]

To be fair, terms like perma-banning and ziing government members are missing, perma-ziing members that did not leave peace-mode as well, taking control of forums, installing a viceroy, or even simply not giving peace are all things that are missing.

The economic terms are harsh, but deserved and expected.

If those terms were to destroy NPO, I'd first be quite surprised, and second rather confident the source would be internal conflict, not the terms that can be satisfied by an alliance with the size of NPO and its appearent ability to organize aid flows.

It's rather difficult to turn those terms into "you just want to destroy NPO via peace-terms", not even NPO members are attempting to do so, knowing that that is not the case.

To be fair, yes, you're right. Moo wasn't tossed from government, etc. And that is better than some things NPO did in terms.

However, the term preventing the movement of INTERNAL tech, IMO, does more to damage them over the longterm than anything else. Technology isn't cheap at the levels of infra that the nations who will be required to pay the reparations.

To economically cripple NPO in this way for this long, well, it just doesn't sit right with me. But that's my opinion, and I suppose I'm entitled to it. lol

[Delta1212]

In GWIII, Aegis was winning militarily. Initiative alliances were surrendering left and right. Had it continued, however, it would have left the remaining Aegis alliances weaker than the surrendered Initiative, leasing to an eventual WUT victory that would have lasted forever. NAAC and LUE saw this and disbanded, dispersing over a wide area as part of a greater strategy. Is it a coincidence that MK's creation helped sour relations between NPO and GOONS? That Almighty Grub is now emperor of NpO while Archon was the figurehead of a coalition that this time had such overwhelming force centered on NPO that they couldn't be disadvantaged by continuing to fight.

Clearly Aegis could easily have won GWIII, but they decided on a much more intelligent strategic withdrawl that culminated in ultimate victory.

[Xiphosis]

Also, shout out to Gus who was my Night 1 target and got FOK'd over the next few rounds. We'll always have the Karma War.

[shilo]

To be fair, yes, you're right. Moo wasn't tossed from government, etc. And that is better than some things NPO did in terms.

However, the term preventing the movement of INTERNAL tech, IMO, does more to damage them over the longterm than anything else. Technology isn't cheap at the levels of infra that the nations who will be required to pay the reparations.

To economically cripple NPO in this way for this long, well, it just doesn't sit right with me. But that's my opinion, and I suppose I'm entitled to it. lol

Of course you are entitled to it, for you as IRON member, I understand that reps surely are not something to laugh about.

And the fact that the internal tech flow is not allowed obviously is an attempt of the victors to ensure they have a tech advantage when the terms run out, in a sense they are giving NPO a decent chance to live on, do their thing by not handing out the aforementioned harsh terms, but militarily, they don't trust NPO to not come back for them, thus they are making sure that an integral component of warfare - technology - is not around in large quantities. Imho, not much different to not allowing NPO to own large military forces and nuclear weapons.

Of course no one is arguing that those terms are equal to white peace, I called them "harsh", though if any alliance in this war deserved those kind of terms, this time Karma got the right adress, and I think everyone expected them. It was the largest war in history, with grudges being brought up dating back 3 years, one could expect that no matter how this would end, surrender would be of epic proportions.

Edited July 20, 2009 by shilo

[Elendil old]

In GWIII, Aegis was winning militarily. Initiative alliances were surrendering left and right. Had it continued, however, it would have left the remaining Aegis alliances weaker than the surrendered Initiative, leasing to an eventual WUT victory that would have lasted forever. NAAC and LUE saw this and disbanded, dispersing over a wide area as part of a greater strategy. Is it a coincidence that MK's creation helped sour relations between NPO and GOONS? That Almighty Grub is now emperor of NpO while Archon was the figurehead of a coalition that this time had such overwhelming force centered on NPO that they couldn't be disadvantaged by continuing to fight.

Clearly Aegis could easily have won GWIII, but they decided on a much more intelligent strategic withdrawl that culminated in ultimate victory.

Please tell me your sarcastic >_>

[Cataduanes]

In GWIII, Aegis was winning militarily. Initiative alliances were surrendering left and right. Had it continued, however, it would have left the remaining Aegis alliances weaker than the surrendered Initiative, leasing to an eventual WUT victory that would have lasted forever. NAAC and LUE saw this and disbanded, dispersing over a wide area as part of a greater strategy. Is it a coincidence that MK's creation helped sour relations between NPO and GOONS? That Almighty Grub is now emperor of NpO while Archon was the figurehead of a coalition that this time had such overwhelming force centered on NPO that they couldn't be disadvantaged by continuing to fight.

Clearly Aegis could easily have won GWIII, but they decided on a much more intelligent strategic withdrawl that culminated in ultimate victory.

so it was all a ruse?? all part of a grand plan?? i wish somebody had told Legion and ODN that, might have saved us both a lot of pain and shame in the long run

Edited July 20, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Denial]

Please tell me your sarcastic >_>

You forgot to quote Vladimir.

[shilo]

In GWIII, Aegis was winning militarily. Initiative alliances were surrendering left and right. Had it continued, however, it would have left the remaining Aegis alliances weaker than the surrendered Initiative, leasing to an eventual WUT victory that would have lasted forever. NAAC and LUE saw this and disbanded, dispersing over a wide area as part of a greater strategy. Is it a coincidence that MK's creation helped sour relations between NPO and GOONS? That Almighty Grub is now emperor of NpO while Archon was the figurehead of a coalition that this time had such overwhelming force centered on NPO that they couldn't be disadvantaged by continuing to fight.

Clearly Aegis could easily have won GWIII, but they decided on a much more intelligent strategic withdrawl that culminated in ultimate victory.

Delta, rewriting history since '09. I sense a great talent, one that could possibly be expanded to write large essays on topics such as history and greater politics

[Vladimir]

Delta was attempting to disprove my factual analysis by blurting out random absurdities about an unrelated event, followed by a misrepresentation of my position. I think it was Aristotle who first used the technique, before discovering the power of the 'yo mamma so fat' argumentum.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Vladimir

[eyriq]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Congrats on victory Karma! Also, congrats on maintaining sanction NPO, though I wonder if reps will finish what the war started... at least temporarily.

[Nemhauser]

So this mean all the top NPO-nations can finally come out of peace mode. And they deserve it, for fighting so honourably for the cause and alliance they believe in.

[Xiphosis]

But that's my opinion, and I suppose I'm entitled to it.

That would be part of what we were fighting to ensure, yes. I, personally, am looking forward to many more public (verbal) fights between alliances. Moving stuff into the public eye without Vox and TWIP forcing it would do us all a ton of good.