Heyman Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Your leap to apply my number to a definition of TPF as a "nonalliance" is rooted in your emotions, not mine. I assign TPF a protection value of 0 because TPF is incapable of giving anything except token assistance to TSI at this point in time--0. TPF's value as a protector is 0 because TPF is incapable of protecting any alliance from AOD Brigade to NPO as a simple matter of fact. You assume it to be an insult about TPF because you're down and out right now, and you've been defending yourselves from insults for the past two months. Don't apply your hair-trigger emotions to me; I'm more at ease than I've been in a year. Thanks for your honesty. Perhaps then, TSI is making a ploy for the future instead? 0 (If that is what we truly are) will turn to 1, eventually. In any case, I'll just refer to the following: If we have nations, we can fight, and in turn can fight for The Sasori Initiative. As for token assistance, the TPF will not be on the sidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinzent Zeppelin Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) In fact, I did.The contents of your address don't really hit on anything I said. TSI came to you about protection, you decided it was below you to "poach" a protectorate (even though it's not poaching if they came to you first--that's the sovereignty you were talking about), you defer TSI's foreign affairs to TPF (that's the exact opposite of the sovereignty you were talking about). Blah, blah, TSI--a 50-nation alliance--needs protection, TPF can't do it, NoR will. So, as I said, TSI wants protection, the guys that are supposed to protect them can't, the treaty has no utility. If there are debts pay them off, cancel the protection, find someone that can protect you. There doesn't have to be any bad blood involved--it's not like cancelling a ToA because war is on the way. Honest answer: The idea to sign this was originally mine, after hearing Shurukian explain TSI's situation. They only "came to us" once I floated the idea to Kingzog and Shurukian and they along with mhawk got to talking. We all wished for something better than "cancel the OPP, sign protectorate with NoR", something that would provide protection to TSI in light of TPF's disposition without requiring them to cut ties with their allies in the Overlord's Protectorate Pact. My understanding is that they (TSI) value the relationships with the OPP signatories enough to keep the treaty even if TPF's ability to honour the military protection clause is dampened. It may seem strange, I know, but probably not much stranger than an alliance retaining a mutual defense pact with an ally who cannot provide military support due to circumstance. Edited July 14, 2009 by Vinzent Zeppelin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 What exactly are TPF trying to rewrite? I'm just a little confused. Two years ago someone else ran the alliance. Two years ago they surrendered. It's been two bloody years. They are fighting now (when they surrendered before) so it sounds to me like that's something of a change, no? They are being at least cordial with old enemies, which is also a change. They are also seeing to the care of their friends. I cannot fathom for the life of me why you keep slamming at them. What more do you want from them? Kry, you should know that no one forgets the history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted July 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Your leap to apply my number to a definition of TPF as a "nonalliance" is rooted in your emotions, not mine. I assign TPF a protection value of 0 because TPF is incapable of giving anything except token assistance to TSI at this point in time--0. TPF's value as a protector is 0 because TPF is incapable of protecting any alliance from AOD Brigade to NPO as a simple matter of fact. You assume it to be an insult about TPF because you're down and out right now, and you've been defending yourselves from insults for the past two months. Don't apply your hair-trigger emotions to me; I'm more at ease than I've been in a year. There are benefits to a protectorate besides military support. You've failed to take those factors into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan King Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Sells papers. But seriously, has any alliance successfully graduated from OPP or any other TPF protection setup? TOOL, SSSW18, VA, NEW for starters. Alliances take a longer time to clear OPP or the GPs because TPF doesn't push them out or annex them like some protectors (like Rok). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwthegreat Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 TOOL, SSSW18, VA, NEW for starters.Alliances take a longer time to clear OPP or the GPs because TPF doesn't push them out or annex them like some protectors (like Rok). GRAN and Defcon(at least until they merged into TOOL) succeeded as well TPF without a doubt was one of the best protectors you could find Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Some alliances just graduate a little faster and want to be on their own much faster than 9 months I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquilos Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 GRAN and Defcon(at least until they merged into TOOL) succeeded as wellTPF without a doubt was one of the best protectors you could find I object to the use of the word "was." Just a minor setback at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Again, I'm not saying TSI should cut all ties with TPF because they're losing a war right now. [i'm] saying that the whole situation is just sort of bass-ackwards and silly. Well....that's an opinion, and you're not only entitled to it but *gasp* I can actually understand why it would seem that way to you. I suspect, my dear Shantanaman, that you can see our side as well. (Reasonable fellow that you are.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The AUT Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) The Aut makes me laugh. I'd like to clarify what Uber meant by this. He apparently thought I divulged logs of a conversation we had yesterday night and shared them with others. This is entirely untrue and I'm sorry to think he'd assume our friendship was this worthless and he felt I'd sell him out like that. Kind of sad you'd assume such a thing without reason, Uber. I honestly thought you were better than that but given your recent actions you've shown to be rather hard to reason with, much less talk to as of late. Edited July 15, 2009 by The AUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Autumn Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I', saying that the whole situation is just sort of bass-ackwards and silly. Schattenman, where a topic about my alliance appears you seem to be sure to follow with oodles of insight. Why is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenix Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) As TPF I welcome the open my mind of my leader. We have been thru a lot lately yet have become stronger as an alliance. When I joined TPF a year ago, I received a badge for fighting NOR, whatever that meant, at the time.(lol, I was a noob) In the year that has followed, JBone and Slayer, I have finally gained an understanding of the politics CN offers. This is a time of change for TPF. I open my arms wide and accept it. I know the value of the integrity we add in our allies now, and would rather die than be a martyr. Cyllabus Edited July 15, 2009 by Fenix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenix Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Next?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesca Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I think that Schattenmann is a little bitter about the idea of TPF protectorates, due to a little incident that people may recall a long time ago. I think that he should remember that times change, as do alliances. mhawk is a much better leader than the ones that came before him... give the guy a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchboy00 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 the odps with Athens and NADC didnt offer enough security with TPF temporarily down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ar Pharazon Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Seven pages of interesting posts mixed with congratulations. I'll add mine to the list. o/ NoR o/ Treaties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyman Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Seven pages of interesting posts mixed with congratulations. I'll add mine to the list.o/ NoR o/ Treaties Like me fumbling for the right words? Preeetty much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wellington Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 As TPF I welcome the open my mind of my leader. We have been thru a lot lately yet have become stronger as an alliance. When I joined TPF a year ago, I received a badge for fighting NOR, whatever that meant, at the time.(lol, I was a noob) In the year that has followed, JBone and Slayer, I have finally gained an understanding of the politics CN offers. This is a time of change for TPF. I open my arms wide and accept it. I know the value of the integrity we add in our allies now, and would rather die than be a martyr.Cyllabus While TPF is not without faults in its history, I wouldnt jump too quickly to jump on JBone and Slayer. Slayer was one of the best and most historic leaders in CN history. He may not be liked by everyone (especially to those the power has shifted to), but dont jump on the anti-Slayer bandwagon. That being said, I applaud NoR for their understanding and cooperation in this matter. It speaks volumes that they have turned the other cheek. They have good leadership and I wish them the best. o/ NoR o/ TPF (BTW, you have to die to be a martyr) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) the odps with Athens and NADC didnt offer enough security with TPF temporarily down? You caught us. We like our friends enough to defend them. Take me away officer. Edited July 16, 2009 by Captain Flinders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchboy00 Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 You caught us. We like our friends enough to defend them. Take me away officer. sorry I guess I came off wrong. I was just wondering why they went for another protectorate instead of finally moving past that stage. I thought when I was there we should have moved past that stage when we were at 1 mil plus strength. Anyways best of luck to TSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall14 Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Good news...o/ NoR o/ TSI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Hakai Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 This is such an AWKWARD dance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I was just wondering why they went for another protectorate instead of finally moving past that stage. I don't see the word 'protector' anywhere in the agreement, except in reference to TPF. Do you? Think of it as a one-way defense arrangement, if you like, but it's certainly not a protectorate. For example, Nordreich has no say regarding TSI's foreign affairs, which is almost always a key part of any protectorate arrangement. Indeed, in the third sentence of the OP mhawk refers to TSI as "[TPF's] protectorate." This is such an AWKWARD dance. Not for anyone involved in it. In fact, at one point mhawk dipped me, our eyes met, and then....oh, I've said too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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