I have a dream.

[Freelancer]

Just for clarification, the New Pacific Order is currently at war with 18 Alliances :

Greenland Republic

GOD

Athens

Viridian Entente

Ragnarok

R&R

The International

MOON

Orion

Deck of International Card Experts

FOK

IPA

Sparta

UCR

=LOST=

Fly

Vanguard

OV

Wow, seems like overwhelming odds doesn't it ? Now imagine how The Wolfpack felt when the entire Continuum rolled them, then add the humiliation of having Comrade you know who convince Prince he was Horde of Doom and turned over the forums with the hopes of possible surrender.

Do I belive its time for all this end... Ohh yea, however I do hope you all learned a very valuable lesson, I doubt it, however I can dream can't I.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Freelancer

[mhawk]

If the 14 days of war is the sticking issue then the NPO should straight up be arguing that term, and both sides hammer something out. For the Love of the OWF.

I seem to recall a 200 page topic where NPO made it clear that term was the issue and tried to exchange that term for an extra billion reps.

[potato]

You are right, however it seems that FLY merged into Athens so while the number still stands at 18 the list is the one I posted above save with Avalanche instead of FLY.

I believe both Orion and MOON withdrew from the conflict.

[HeinousOne]

I'll have to agree with HeinousOne for the most part. =O Except for the GRL thing.

Negotiators from both sides need to be doing a better job. If the 14 days of war is the sticking issue then the NPO should straight up be arguing that term, and both sides hammer something out. For the Love of the OWF.

All I've seen around here are mostly debates about the amount of reps, debates on morality, actual karma blah blah blah. Basically mudslinging, which won't help either side and will only drive them further apart. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of it.

I think if we all give a little and stop taking stands on idealistic talking points, I think we can see an end to this war. I know for one I completely agree with you on how it is affecting the OWF. Especially when one considers how much fun it is going to be to see all the changes that come to play after the war ends. That is the number one reason why I want to see this war ended.

[Glen MoP]

Our policy for people we do sentence to ZI is just that, the instant they hit 0.00 infra the term is up, Enjoy rebuilding.

Wait... what? So if you hammer someone continuously for three years (to take things to the extreme) and never managed to ZI them, you wouldn't consider that effectively putting them on a "Perma-ZI list"?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Glen MoP

[ShinRa]

How are we running from the other 17 alliances (Athens, Viridian Entente, R&R, The International, MOON, Orion, Deck of International Card Experts, FOK, IPA, Sparta, UCR, =LOST=, Vanguard, OV, Avalanche)? It is NPO vs KARMA (KARMA here is meant to reflect the 18 alliances at War with NPO). We are getting attacked and fighting back against all of the alliances. We just know how to use our offensive slots.

Look at those who the NPO nations now attack, at thse who bear the AA of RoK and those who bear the AA of other KARMA alliances, compare the numbers of the two.

You dare talk about Honor? Are you telling me that the way war has been waged for centuries is dishonorable?

No, I’m saying that the actions of the New Pacific Order, from their birth up till this day have no honour, no decency and that none of your ‘positive actions’ can even begin to balance out the InFANtile War alone.

You say it is dishonorable for the Persians to go through that pass and surround the Spartan's?

Are you telling me it was dishonorable for the Nazi's to blitzkreig against the Ardennes of Belgium?

Are you telling me that it was dishonorable for the US led forces in the Persian Gulf War to out flank the Iraqi units through the desert?

Are you telling me that it was dishonorable for the US in WWII to go after only one Japanese island at a time rather than attack them all?

Are you saying it was dishonorable for the Allies to invade only at Normandy rather than along the whole French Coast?

Are you saying that it was dishonorable for the Japanese to launch the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, which effectively crippled the US Pacific fleet minus the carriers (which the Japanese though would be there)?

Against an enemy who would strike without declaration of war, who would use death camps, who would strike while a man’s back was turned, against an enemy who is a tyrant and dictator to his own people, who would attack weapon was sheathed, or when unprovoked, or when purely in ambition to gain power and personal wealth…

Against an enemy who has no honour, against an enemy who would attack under the guise of peace, attack an alliance when other diplomatic options were clearly open to them, to attack an entire alliance for the supposed breaches in an agreement for which I nor anyone I have ever spoken to has ever seen…

Against an enemy who would use EZI and cannot fight an opponent alone even when outnumbering them more than three to one, and outgunning them god only knows how many times…

In facing an enemy with no honour, honour is postponed.

If anything, you suggest us doing something like the Tet Offensive, with which we attack all alliances evenly.

I’m suggesting that you turn and fight like the soldiers your military claims to be, rather than the cowards you have proven yourselves to be so far in this war.

You, sir, are just one more example of KARMA's wonderful military.

No. I am an example of what was Blake’s 7, I am an example of someone who’s had enough of the Pacifican’s undisputed rule and the way they show no true respect to anyone

I am an example of someone who’s seen enough of your tactics to know that your alliance is beyond redemption, and am certain that you know nothing of what Bob is meant to be in non-Pacifican eyes.

OOC: Now, if you what to continue this argument then you'll have to wait a few hours, i'm off.

Edited July 8, 2009 by ShinRa

[Lord Brendan]

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say you're at war with 18 alliances.

Greenland Republic

GOD -> 2 wars

Athens

Viridian Entente

Ragnarok

R&R -> 6 wars

The International -> 4 wars

MOON

Orion

Deck of International Card Experts

FOK

IPA

Sparta

UCR

=LOST= -> 10 wars

Avalanche -> 1 war

Vanguard -> 3 wars

OV -> 10 wars

You're only really engaged with five, six if you want to add the scraps together. Obviously you're still outnumbered though.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[BamaBuc]

It says something about their dedication to their allies.

It sure does. +1 respect for Sparta from me. So how come when TPF stayed in a war against a defeated opponent, we were condemned for it?

-Bama

[HeinousOne]

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say you're at war with 18 alliances.

Greenland Republic

GOD -> 2 wars

Athens

Viridian Entente

Ragnarok

R&R -> 6 wars

The International -> 4 wars

MOON

Orion

Deck of International Card Experts

FOK

IPA

Sparta

UCR

=LOST= -> 10 wars

Avalanche -> 1 war

Vanguard -> 3 wars

OV -> 10 wars

You're only really engaged with five, six if you want to add the scraps together. Obviously you're still outnumbered though.

Fact is, they are indeed at war with all of them. They may now be fighting most of their wars against a few of them but the rest are basically reserves that could be called up if needed. The active amount of wars at present time only represents the present time, not the possibilities of future conflict if the war continues.

[Heracles the Great]

We're the largest alliance in the game? We were, certainly, but unfortunately we cannot time-travel and ask our past-selves to pay the reparations for us. According to Unspeakable Evil's statistics we are currently 15th in the strength rankings and 21st in the infrastructure rankings. 500 of our 641 nations are below 1k infrastructure.

And for the terms being 'scaled down', Karma have already made it clear that they believe we will be able to pay the full amount with ease after the 2 weeks of war, no matter how much damage it does.

Spare me your pathetic attempt at sympathy as the only thing preventing you from having peace is yourself. Your failure to admit defeat and swallow the terms given (which are quite doable) is not the fault of those who are standing above you.

[Waterana]

As an NPO member any of the terms that continue to damage us after any peace is accepted make the whole lot unacceptable. That includes killing our banks, the restrictions on who can pay the tech reps, and to some extent, how our internal aid slots are used. Long as our enemies are getting their monthly requirement of vengeance money, how we use the rest of our slots for internal aid is none of your business. And please, don't bother going into a huge bile ridden diatribe on how 'NPO did it first, so deserve it', been there, heard that.

The tech reps payment restriction is not to punish the high tech nations in some sort of benevolent plan not to punish the small nations as has been touted, but simply to strip all our high tech nations of their tech and at the same time dump our AS to get us out of sanction. Small nations like mine are much more able to pay tech reps quickly and easily without damage to our bigger nations, guess that's why we'd not be allowed to.

Just for the record, it isn't our governments 'pride' that is preventing these terms from being accepted. It is the overwhelming rejection by the BR of the NPO. Yes, we have seen the full document, it is posted on our forum with page after page after page of replies that can be summed up in two words, hell no.

We know these terms are not payable under the war to our bank nations and other restrictions, will lead to nothing but more war due to violations because we can't meet the monthly reps payment requirements or one of 1001 other reasons (the massive loopholes will ensure that), and are geared to cripple us to the point of massive member loss and even disbandment.

Continuing to fight is the much better option for our nations at this point. It won't damage them or our alliance nearly as much as those terms would.

[John Edward]

I sure people are getting annoyed at our back and forth so i'll end with this. Every RL battle looked only at the strategies of the battle, not of the rulers or nation, and btw the Japanese intended to declare war but the American official got busy.

The Cold hard facts are the NPO will never go away. As you can see after more than 8 weeks of war we still are sanctioned. Going through your CN career flat out hating the NPO and never even listening to arguments from the NPO on anything will get you ignored quick, and will not have the respect many, on either side.

[Vol Navy]

I hope you don't include Sparta in that list as we announced long ago that we are not seeking reps. Though there is truth to much of what you say about much of Karma, your inability or unwillingness to differentiate the force known as Karma obscures your points and their validity. As for your theories about the next war, it's a little too vague for me. Someone is always on the chopping block and that's the nature of politics. To say that NPO played a marginal role in many past conflicts is ridiculous and you know it. To say that they did it alone would also be ridiculous and I know it.

While you've got your crystal ball out, what do you predict for alliances like Sparta who may have been allied to the NPO in the past but also have not demanded high reps from anyone? Will they meet the same fate merely by association with these other more evil Karma alliances you allude to?

I think the pendulum swing of public opinion and allegiances is far more unpredictable and illogical than your account states. In another year or two half of the people won't even remember what really happened here as you've said yourself. And so conflict is not driven by history as you say so much as the blind will of the masses and the current cultural climate that shapes those masses.

I would be surprised if within a year of Pacifica's peace they had not already signed a treaty with someone who previously cancelled on them during the outbreak of this war or actively fought against them. Such is the nature of politics.

EDIT: Sponge: I think you had better specify that it will be a while before they are able to directly do significant military damage to anyone... heh. I am sure NPO will not relinquish the spotlight so easily.

Errr just like when you were with Q, Sparta is lending it's military and diplomatic might to the imposition of these terms. Just like you did with the wonder decomming terms that were levied against Greenland Republic in the last war.

IRON wasn't one for taking reps either but their feet were held to the fire this time out. They used their military and diplomatic backing to conduct Q buisness too and paid the price to the tune of full out nuclear war, over 100k tech and a billion or so dollars.

So yes, Sparta will someday have these terms thrown up in their face after they get their beating, possibly the ones while they were a part of Q as well.

An option would have been to do what TOP/TSO did in the Echelon front when they saw those proposed terms.

That ship has sailed now though as you've backed these terms for over a month now.

[Vladimir]

Spare me your pathetic attempt at sympathy as the only thing preventing you from having peace is yourself. Your failure to admit defeat and swallow the terms given (which are quite doable) is not the fault of those who are standing above you.

My apologies for pointing out your factual error. Won't happen again, sir.

[Vol Navy]

Spare me your pathetic attempt at sympathy as the only thing preventing you from having peace is yourself. Your failure to admit defeat and swallow the terms given (which are quite doable) is not the fault of those who are standing above you.

NPO - We admit defeat. We've been soundly defeated.

Karma - Liar. Admit it. Admit defeat.

NPO - We admit defeat. You have crushed us.

Karma - You are pathetic. Just admit defeat.

NPO - We are beaten. Defeated. Crushed. It will take months if not years to recover from this beating.

Karma - You are horrible. Just admit defeat.

On and on it goes.

[Doitzel]

You're taking an awful lot away from a throwaway line that merely took your comment to its necessary conclusion. My point is merely that people shouldn't be expecting the Order to be back at 23 million strength next month with hundreds of millions of strength behind us. Whether no terms, harsh terms or utterly destructive terms, it simply isn't going to happen.

That's quite the crystal ball you've got there. Back to 23 million strength and at the head of the world's sole superbloc? Maybe not. In a position of political power and still among the strongest alliances in the game? Pretty likely. You still have a very significant membership base and that's all it takes.

[Freelancer]

My apologies for pointing out your factual error. Won't happen again, sir.

*Freelancer cleans his glasses*

Thats better I actually thought I saw Vlad apologize, its still sarcasm, Thank GWD !!

[Prime minister Johns]

NPO - We admit defeat. We've been soundly defeated.

Karma - Liar. Admit it. Admit defeat.

NPO - We admit defeat. You have crushed us.

Karma - You are pathetic. Just admit defeat.

NPO - We are beaten. Defeated. Crushed. It will take months if not years to recover from this beating.

Karma - You are horrible. Just admit defeat.

On and on it goes.

There are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear.

.

[Heracles the Great]

My apologies for pointing out your factual error. Won't happen again, sir.

Speaking of facts - I love the way you and your comrades continue to ignore how much actual damage your banks will take in 14 days of war, and ignore how long it will actually take to pay off the reps with a reasonable amount of efficiency calculated in.

You guys seemed to abandon all factual basis and run back to your ever prevalent cry for sympathy that continues to fall on deaf ears.

Perhaps in the future you shouldn't commit the crime if you can't do the time

[Vladimir]

I love the way you hop from one unrelated topic to the next, as in each one you are shown to be incorrect. Where will you land next, who knows. I'm quite excited to find out though.

Not sure that one could accuse us of ignoring financial calculations. Comrade Cortath and others have been travelling the forums for weeks now actively challenging all comers on their figures, including a point by point breakdown of infrastructure damage -- and many comrades have a plethora of links in their signatures dealing with such. Do some people disagree with some of our calculations? Of course, this is economics -- put 5 economists in a room and you'll come out with 6 different answers. There is disagreement even between Karma calculations (even if they all reach the rather predictable conclusion that 'everything is fine, Karma rocks the house').

What you mean is that we continue to disagree with you, and you find this so outlandish that your mind can't comprehend it. I'm sorry, but it happens, and once the world is no longer polarised around NPO-related topics you will find that it might begin to happen more often from a variety of different sources.

[Heracles the Great]

I love the way you hop from one unrelated topic to the next, as in each one you are shown to be incorrect. Where will you land next, who knows. I'm quite excited to find out though.

Not sure that one could accuse us of ignoring financial calculations. Comrade Cortath and others have been travelling the forums for weeks now actively challenging all comers on their figures, including a point by point breakdown of infrastructure damage -- and many comrades have a plethora of links in their signatures dealing with such. Do some people disagree with some of our calculations? Of course, this is economics -- put 5 economists in a room and you'll come out with 6 different answers. There is disagreement even between Karma calculations (even if they all reach the rather predictable conclusion that 'everything is fine, Karma rocks the house').

What you mean is that we continue to disagree with you, and you find this so outlandish that your mind can't comprehend it. I'm sorry, but it happens, and once the world is no longer polarised around NPO-related topics you will find that it might begin to happen more often from a variety of different sources.

Of course - you're absolutely right Vladimir - how dare I ever disagree with you and your unchallengeable opinions and how dare anyone use actual math and proven facts to prove your and Cortath's propaganda to be wrong. We'll just sit back and wait for you to spin this war into a victory for the NPO and how Karma started it....

[/sarcasm]

Edited July 8, 2009 by Heracles the Great

[Enzos]

The situations, unfortunately, are not comparable.

The nations will survive insofar as it is impossible to actually physically destroy them; however, after they have been 'battered to all hell' they (or at least, those who still exist -- many of our large nations are semi-retired and would likely just delete) are then expected to pay $7 billion and 300k tech in reparations, something that our economists tell us is impossible on the terms demanded. So the nations are levelled, just about all of our cash flows out to other alliances for an extremely prolonged period (perhaps to be noted in years rather than months), and the rest of our alliance -- 600 or so players -- sit in ruins. And this is assuming that Karma doesn't simply redeclare on a 'lolFANkarma' ticket when we fail to meet a monthly reparation quota (or make some other perceived infraction) as I and many others expect they would.

Compared to this, war is a doddle.

I should add to this that the Order is not opposed to surrender. It is not opposed to terms. It is not even opposed to incredibly harsh terms. It is opposed to these terms.

You still have a hundred medium sized and big sized nations in PM. 2 weeks of war won't have the same effect the of 3 months of war which many other pacificans have faced. Also how can "the rest of our alliance -- 600 or so players -- sit in ruins" aren't you guys organised? those small nations are allowed to do tech deals. they can continue building their nation peacefully when this war ends. It's those bigger nations we have a problem with, the avarage Alliance seniority in the top 100 nations of the NPO is between 500 & 1000 days. they are the core of Pacifica, yet they haven't fought in this war, a war started by the NPO.

There are some Karma alliances that wouldn't hesitate to cripple you, for whatever reason(past actions, damage done in current war), but I believe you have been crippled enough. you had a score of almost 90 and now you have 25. This war already has been a big hit to you. Problem is it's mostly the smaller(probably non gov) NPO nations that have suffered.

I believe that the purpose of government is to serve it's people not to use them and especially to keep them out of harms way, Pacifica failed there. Gov/upper tier remained unharmed(yes there are a few exeptions) and it's populace recieved the beating. That's why in order to get peace, NPO's upper tier nations will have to engage in war, just to show they are willing to sacrifice themselves for Pacifica's grunts and to recieve the beating you deserve. IMBO You deserve this beating not only because of past actions but just because you lost this war, the victor has the right to take whatever he wants. Show Pacifica has changed it's ways! So those Pacific grunts will find peace and will be able to start rebuilding outside of peace-mode.

Postphoning negotiations won't get you any further..

/Enzos, just a spartan grunt

[HeinousOne]

Spare me your pathetic attempt at sympathy as the only thing preventing you from having peace is yourself. Your failure to admit defeat and swallow the terms given (which are quite doable) is not the fault of those who are standing above you.

Speaking of facts - I love the way you and your comrades continue to ignore how much actual damage your banks will take in 14 days of war, and ignore how long it will actually take to pay off the reps with a reasonable amount of efficiency calculated in.

You guys seemed to abandon all factual basis and run back to your ever prevalent cry for sympathy that continues to fall on deaf ears.

Perhaps in the future you shouldn't commit the crime if you can't do the time

Wait a minute, so you would honestly have no problem telling member nations of Kronos that Kronos was surrendering and in order for it to be accepted they would have to take attacks for two weeks without being able to respond to those attacks in order to save Kronos? If I was a member of Kronos I would tell you to go $%&@ yourself and I would do the same to Tyga if he ever asked that of me.

[Matthew Conrad]

Wait a minute, so you would honestly have no problem telling member nations of Kronos that Kronos was surrendering and in order for it to be accepted they would have to take attacks for two weeks without being able to respond to those attacks in order to save Kronos? If I was a member of Kronos I would tell you to go $%&@ yourself and I would do the same to Tyga if he ever asked that of me.

I don't believe the terms state they can't attack back. From what I've seen, they may counterattack. Of course, they'd take more damage so that's up to them.

[Waterana]

You still have a hundred medium sized and big sized nations in PM. 2 weeks of war won't have the same effect the of 3 months of war which many other pacificans have faced. Also how can "the rest of our alliance -- 600 or so players -- sit in ruins" aren't you guys organised? those small nations are allowed to do tech deals. they can continue building their nation peacefully when this war ends. It's those bigger nations we have a problem with, the avarage Alliance seniority in the top 100 nations of the NPO is between 500 & 1000 days. they are the core of Pacifica, yet they haven't fought in this war, a war started by the NPO.

My nation's strength was 29k at the beginning of this war, it is now just over 1k. I'd call that ruins. Many others are the same or worse than that. Those nations sitting peacefully and that haven't seen war at all are mostly banks. They are supposed to be sitting peacefully, it's their job. No Pacifican begrudges that or feels upset about it. If our enemies are miffed they can't touch their tech, then we're happy about that too. In our situation, you have to find satisfaction where you can after all.

There are some Karma alliances that wouldn't hesitate to cripple you, for whatever reason(past actions, damage done in current war), but I believe you have been crippled enough. you had a score of almost 90 and now you have 25. This war already has been a big hit to you. Problem is it's mostly the smaller(probably non gov) NPO nations that have suffered.

In all sincerity, thank you for saying that. It is a refreshing change.

I believe that the purpose of government is to serve it's people not to use them and especially to keep them out of harms way, Pacifica failed there. Gov/upper tier remained unharmed(yes there are a few exeptions) and it's populace recieved the beating. That's why in order to get peace, NPO's upper tier nations will have to engage in war, just to show they are willing to sacrifice themselves for Pacifica's grunts and to recieve the beating you deserve. IMBO You deserve this beating not only because of past actions but just because you lost this war, the victor has the right to take whatever he wants. Show Pacifica has changed it's ways! So those Pacific grunts will find peace and will be able to start rebuilding outside of peace-mode.

Postphoning negotiations won't get you any further..

/Enzos, just a spartan grunt

Pacifican government are keeping us out of harms way, by refusing these terms which are a far worse outcome for all of us than continuing to fight. If they did accept these terms as written, and we've been constantly told the terms are not negotiable, then I suspect there would be a huge backlash from the BR and many people leaving in disgust. I'd be one of them. Only one member of our government, to my knowledge, isn't fighting and it is because he's a bank. Moo hasn't seen peace the entire war. I don't know where you got the idea our government aren't fighting. Believe me, they are, and hard. Just ask any of Mary's opponents .