I have a dream.

[Drostan]

As my other post indicated, then you are no more guilty or innocent than TPF regarding our actions on FAN. We most certainly are being held account for all sorts of actions, my attempt was to get you to see that not all the "crimes" you feel warranting retribution are so crystal clear morally as propaganda has attempted to paint.

Well, don't worry. I have never thought that this was a crystal clear matter. However, your comparison fairly ignores the cirumcstances that precipitated this conflict, no? I also have opposed the Karma moniker from the start. But they don't call it propaganda because it's unbiased. There is also the difference that we are actually offering terms even if you don't like them. Now, when NPO accepts the terms, and we re-declare because they were violated without notifying NPO, then you can take that analogy somewhere perhaps.

[John Edward]

Your alliance has dropped by almost 100K in the last day and is losing more members as we speak

That statement right there is why i don't listen to anything you post. you look at immediate results instead of the long term trend. You make it sound that we lose 100k consistently, which anyone who can read a graph would know isn't true. Previous to the one time drop of 100k last day, it took a week and a half to drop 100k NS. Now if you look at RoK in the was week and a half + day they have lost 580K NS, including 100k in the past day, with only NPO at war with them (if i went over KARMA's own wiki of events correctly). Now with VE only fighting NPO, and ingoring the past two days for NS, that pas week and a half VE fell 150K NS. Both VE and RoK have lost members as well. As you can see the NPO, being attacked by 12 alliances (as i have been told) still is managign to do more damage to two alliances than is being done to itself.

Sometimes to preserve whatever you value whether it be your morals, your friends or your sense of justice, sometimes you have to abandon it in order to make sure that the greatest threat to it is dealt with once and for all. To make sure that for a time at least those values will not be threatened.

If you are using that sentence to justify what KARMA is doing currently than KARMA and you in particular should apply that statement to everything NPO is accused of doing evilly. You in that single paragraph just said that either KARMA is as bad if not worse that what they claim the NPO is, or that the NPO has done nothign wrong as it was just following that sentiment.

[hawk11]

Let me be perfectly blunt (not that I wouldn't normally be):

Under no circumstances will I ever be allied with the New Pacific Order again, ever.

Ha ha, I can't believe that even needed to be clarified. Some people will go far for their conspiracy theories.

[Freelancer]

Ha ha, I can't believe that even needed to be clarified. Some people will go far for their conspiracy theories.

No we don't, I see these logs from numerous open channels, my staff is quite diligent, then I have to figure out whats truth and whats Bullsh*, when I can't do that, I come here get a quotable like above and then we can use it later down the road if in fact the rumors are true, unlike most I don't live for CN, however I do enjoy playing when time permits.

Edited for crazy characters, its what I get for using an MS product

Edited July 8, 2009 by Freelancer

[hawk11]

No we don't, I see these logs from numerous open channels, my staff is quite diligent, then I have to figure out whats truth and whats Bullsh*, when I can't do that, I come here get a quotable like above and then we can use it later down the road if in fact the rumors are true, unlike most I don't live for CN, however I do enjoy playing when time permits.

Edited for crazy characters, its what I get for using an MS product

Come now, just because the man thinks Karma has put enough of a beating on us and should stop messing about with terms doesn't mean he's ready to get into bed with us. We're far beyond relationship counseling at this point. A "he who is not with us is against us" attitude is terrible and gets people no where.

[Heracles the Great]

Why would a former Vox member write propaganda for NPO? Or lie, for that matter?

You are either regurgitating lies and propaganda that you bought into or you're making it up yourself.

There is no possible way to spin that the terms being handed out to any alliance in this war are worse than has ever been handed down in the past. The numerical amount might be more, but it's also for the largest alliance in the game. There are no viceroy clauses, there are no wonder destruction clauses, there are no forum privilege clauses.

The fact that you try to convince the feeble minded that this is the worst the world has ever seen discredits any opinion you might have formed after that sentence.

[hawk11]

The fact that you try to convince the feeble minded that this is the worst the world has ever seen discredits any opinion you might have formed after that sentence.

Being wrong about a relative opinion discredits everything else someone says?

[Drostan]

You are either regurgitating lies and propaganda that you bought into or you're making it up yourself.

There is no possible way to spin that the terms being handed out to any alliance in this war are worse than has ever been handed down in the past. The numerical amount might be more, but it's also for the largest alliance in the game. There are no viceroy clauses, there are no wonder destruction clauses, there are no forum privilege clauses.

The fact that you try to convince the feeble minded that this is the worst the world has ever seen discredits any opinion you might have formed after that sentence.

Also, it seems that the reps are to be scaled depending on the damage dealt after the exiting peace-mode war period. Thus, the notion that the 2 weeks of war would leave them unable to pay such high reps doesn't have that strong a foundation. I guess even I overlooked it as I had gotten used to being told how CRAZY the terms were.

Nevertheless, we can't very well set a precedent wherein if people just whine long enough on the OWF instead of negotiating we will eventually just ever decrease our terms.

[Petrovich4]

I have a dream that NPO will rise to the TOP of the mountain, using their worn coat as a Vanguard against the bitter Spartan cold. I dream that they then join the six other fantastic alliances in whining and complaining about life, love and CN.

That is my dream.

NPO + RoK: Both alliance have lost some members (and therefore alliance strength) due to new alliances being formed and some members joining these alliances. So relax

[Heracles the Great]

Being wrong about a relative opinion discredits everything else someone says?

Relative opinion? Hardly, we are discussing cold hard facts here.

And the fact that one would try to spew such lies does infact make the rest of their post worthless. No different than if a witness gets on the stand and lies, it discredits the entire testimony and must be disregarded as a whole.

[Freelancer]

Come now, just because the man thinks Karma has put enough of a beating on us and should stop messing about with terms doesn't mean he's ready to get into bed with us. We're far beyond relationship counseling at this point. A "he who is not with us is against us" attitude is terrible and gets people no where.

I didn't say that, unlike some I believe Sponge when he says something, however Sponge is also a player in this game and a damn good one at that.. The time he invested to see your demise has to be unprecedented, I cheered him on the whole way, however he has been playing games with you guys for a long time and I could see him being persuaded to do otherwise.

If I'm wrong well then I'm wrong, only time will tell wont it.

[ShinRa]

That statement right there is why i don't listen to anything you post. you look at immediate results instead of the long term trend. You make it sound that we lose 100k consistently, which anyone who can read a graph would know isn't true.

Previous to the one time drop of 100k last day, it took a week and a half to drop 100k NS.

Now when did I ever state that I only ever looked at immediate results? When did I ever state that I hadn’t taken into account the previous losses over the past? when did I ever state ‘don’t look at the graph!’?

Anyone in Karma knows what damage you’ve taken, anyone in the NPO knows what damage they have taken, I was simply pointing out how you are taking more damage now and using it as an example.

Now if you look at RoK in the was week and a half + day they have lost 580K NS, including 100k in the past day, with only NPO at war with them (if i went over KARMA's own wiki of events correctly).

Yes, with the NPO, an alliance which even now is seven points stronger than it and almost twice RoK’s size has done more damage. So what? if anything this proves that even now the NPO runs from those who are stronger than it and cannot fight on equal terms and instead chooses to concentrate it’s attacks against the weaker opponent.

Even, now as your alliance faces one of the largest threats it has ever seen and your Hegemony crumbles around you, the NPO still lacks a shred of honour.

If RoK takes that much damage and chooses to keep fighting you then it only proves that they are unwilling to falter and back down when fighting along side their allies and unwilling to abandon them as you did with TORN.

If you choose to make examples like that to try and improve the NPO’s image, I have nothing more to say to you.

Edited July 8, 2009 by ShinRa

[Glen MoP]

You are either regurgitating lies and propaganda that you bought into or you're making it up yourself.

It doesn't give you pause that several people who put so very, very much time and effort into bringing the NPO down are saying, "Mercy above, enough!"? That doesn't even hint to you that maybe you've gone too far? Instead it convinces you that they're now secretly on the NPO's side? Seriously?

[Vladimir]

The numerical amount might be more, but it's also for the largest alliance in the game.

We're the largest alliance in the game? We were, certainly, but unfortunately we cannot time-travel and ask our past-selves to pay the reparations for us. According to Unspeakable Evil's statistics we are currently 15th in the strength rankings and 21st in the infrastructure rankings. 500 of our 641 nations are below 1k infrastructure.

And for the terms being 'scaled down', Karma have already made it clear that they believe we will be able to pay the full amount with ease after the 2 weeks of war, no matter how much damage it does.

[SonOfHoward]

The situations, unfortunately, are not comparable.

The nations will survive insofar as it is impossible to actually physically destroy them; however, after they have been 'battered to all hell' they (or at least, those who still exist -- many of our large nations are semi-retired and would likely just delete) are then expected to pay $7 billion and 300k tech in reparations, something that our economists tell us is impossible on the terms demanded. So the nations are levelled, just about all of our cash flows out to other alliances for an extremely prolonged period (perhaps to be noted in years rather than months), and the rest of our alliance -- 600 or so players -- sit in ruins.

What is not comparable between my nation suffering 2 weeks of nuke attacks and anyone else's nation suffereing the same?

Now you're coming back full circle to the subject of how much reps and long it will take to pay them. 'Karma' has calculations on how long the reps would take to pay. The NPO has calculations for how much estimated damage their nations will suffer(link me if I'm wrong.). Regardless if their nations suffer as much damage as they claim I stress to you to please read the bolded part below.

2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgement of the Karma signatories of this document. All reparations of technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology at the end of the abovementioned 14 day period.

The NPO claims they will have 25 nation not ZI'd after 14 days of war. If in fact this happens why not negotiate to run Karma's formula again subsituting the # of nations actually left after 14 days of war? I think that would be a fair middle ground.

And this is assuming that Karma doesn't simply redeclare on a 'lolFANkarma' ticket when we fail to meet a monthly reparation quota (or make some other perceived infraction) as I and many others expect they would.

This unfortunately is a common sentiment among NPO members.

Compared to this, war is a doddle.

I should add to this that the Order is not opposed to surrender. It is not opposed to terms. It is not even opposed to incredibly harsh terms. It is opposed to these terms.

The only thing left to be debated here is the fear that NPO will be redeclared on FAN style. That has nothing to do with the terms. There's not much I can say about that except why would terms be offered in the first place if the goal was eternal war? Is the NPO afraid of being PZI'd? Mind you VE does not practice Perma-ZI so in that sense you would have nothing to fear from my alliance.

Edited July 8, 2009 by SonOfHoward

[Walt Schmidt]

3. Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it.

It's a shame some of the more vociferous posters never seem to get over what it is they need to get over. Perhaps they have let their egos get too close to their position.

[HeinousOne]

Alright, the current terms are Not the worse terms ever handed down. NPO Has done much much worse. We all know that. Why are you using the grading scale of the NPO though if you think they are so horrible? Half way up the NPO grading scale is still far too much. It seemed like Karma understood such before the war but as those whom have sought vengeance for years have gotten closer to their goal they have changed the purpose of the war.

Fact is, forcing an alliance to continue to fight or take attacks without fighting back After they surrender is still a horrendous term. Find something else that can have similiar affects. People keep pointing to the tech and money reparations as if that is what anyone cares about. No, thats fine and I dont think anyone is arguing that. The real term that everyone is up in arms about is forcing an alliance to take more damage after they surrender.

Why the hell would Anyone surrender to such? They are already bottomed out. You will not get them to surrender with such a term being forced upon them. Is that honestly what folks want? Is a perpetual war with NPO? You are going to start to piss off the rest of the world with a continued GRL as I highly doubt NPO is going to let it drop way down as they know that is their one ace in the hole when it comes to getting the world pissed off at those attacking them.

You can see that it is going to happen in the future and act upon it now or you can just wait till it happens but you guys sitting in the negotiations room need to put your damn ego's aside. You guys aren't afraid of NPO rising up in the future, you just want to have NPO under your jackboot hence why you ask for all the apologies.

[Weirdgus]

As you can see the NPO, being attacked by 12 alliances (as i have been told) still is managing to do more damage to two alliances than is being done to itself.

Just for clarification, the New Pacific Order is currently at war with 18 Alliances :

Greenland Republic

GOD

Athens

Viridian Entente

Ragnarok

R&R

The International

MOON

Orion

Deck of International Card Experts

FOK

IPA

Sparta

UCR

=LOST=

Fly

Vanguard

OV

[Glen MoP]

Mind you VE does not practice Perma-ZI so in that sense you would have nothing to fear from my alliance.

Out of curiosity, how long do you have to keep attacking someone for it to be Perma-ZI? A month? Two? Three? Six? At what point is your continued warfare de facto Perma-ZI?

[Vilien]

Just for clarification, the New Pacific Order is currently at war with 18 Alliances :

Greenland Republic

GOD

Athens

Viridian Entente

Ragnarok

R&R

The International

MOON

Orion

Deck of International Card Experts

FOK

IPA

Sparta

UCR

=LOST=

Fly

Vanguard

OV

You forgot Avalanche.

[Weirdgus]

You forgot Avalanche.

You are right, however it seems that FLY merged into Athens so while the number still stands at 18 the list is the one I posted above save with Avalanche instead of FLY.

[SonOfHoward]

I'll have to agree with HeinousOne for the most part. =O Except for the GRL thing.

Negotiators from both sides need to be doing a better job. If the 14 days of war is the sticking issue then the NPO should straight up be arguing that term, and both sides hammer something out. For the Love of the OWF.

All I've seen around here are mostly debates about the amount of reps, debates on morality, actual karma blah blah blah. Basically mudslinging, which won't help either side and will only drive them further apart. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of it.

Out of curiosity, how long do you have to keep attacking someone for it to be Perma-ZI? A month? Two? Three? Six? At what point is your continued warfare de facto Perma-ZI?

Any continued attacks after the first ZI is perma-ZI for a single nation. There's no time limit.

Edited July 8, 2009 by SonOfHoward

[John Edward]

Yes, with the NPO, an alliance which even now is seven points stronger than it and almost twice RoK’s size has done more damage. So what? if anything this proves that even now the NPO runs from those who are stronger than it and cannot fight on equal terms and instead chooses to concentrate it’s attacks against the weaker opponent.

How are we running from the other 17 alliances (Athens, Viridian Entente, R&R, The International, MOON, Orion, Deck of International Card Experts, FOK, IPA, Sparta, UCR, =LOST=, Vanguard, OV, Avalanche)? It is NPO vs KARMA (KARMA here is meant to reflect the 18 alliances at War with NPO). We are getting attacked and fighting back against all of the alliances. We just know how to use our offensive slots.

You dare talk about Honor? Are you telling me that the way war has been waged for centuries is dishonorable? You say it is dishonorable for the Persians to go through that pass and surround the Spartan's? Are you telling me it was dishonorable for the Nazi's to blitzkreig against the Ardennes of Belgium? Are you telling me that it was dishonorable for the US led forces in the Persian Gulf War to out flank the Iraqi units through the desert? Are you telling me that it was dishonorable for the US in WWII to go after only one Japanese island at a time rather than attack them all? Are you saying it was dishonorable for the Allies to invade only at Normandy rather than along the whole French Coast? Are you saying that it was dishonorable for the Japanese to launch the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, which effectively crippled the US Pacific fleet minus the carriers (which the Japanese though would be there)?

If anything, you suggest us doing something like the Tet Offensive, with which we attack all alliances evenly.

You, sir, are just one more example of KARMA's wonderful military.

[Vilien]

You are right, however it seems that FLY merged into Athens so while the number still stands at 18 the list is the one I posted above save with Avalanche instead of FLY.

Well played.

[TypoNinja]

Out of curiosity, how long do you have to keep attacking someone for it to be Perma-ZI? A month? Two? Three? Six? At what point is your continued warfare de facto Perma-ZI?

Our policy for people we do sentence to ZI is just that, the instant they hit 0.00 infra the term is up, Enjoy rebuilding.