I have a dream.

[WarriorConcept]

Only problem is, your little simplistic version isn't working out according to plan. Kind of like how NPO's simple plan didnt work out against FAN did it?

Saying the same things over and over wont make it true, sometimes plans have to change.

Worked for several years

[Waterana]

Karma won, Hegemony lost. You ask why? Most alliances didn't want to be on hegemony's side, WHY? they destroyed alliances, acted liked a tyrant. Now Karma won and karma get´s the loots, Hegemony get´s to deal with the consequences. You didn't lose a battle but you lost the war. Deal with it!

We know karma won, duh, we are the best position to know.

You only get your loot if we give it to you. As thing stand now, you aren't getting zip.

[King DrunkWino]

You give them further reasons with your responses. It didnt even make sense. It was just another attempt to try and quote a post that shows that NPO deserves the initial terms. You missed your mark. You are not even part of the war Mr. Jedi so save us your wise judgement on the matter. Some of us would like to simply see the world move on, perhaps because we actually see all that NPO has lost?

All you see is NPO and you will forever see the same thing instead of seeing what they truly are at this point.

They will always be hardlined in their resolve during war. They are the god damned NPO. You will not take that from them no matter how many times you insult them or ask them to apologize for every damned bloody thing that they did horribly in the past. I am not defending them, I am simply calling for everyone else to be realistic.

No, as a matter of fact I didn't miss any mark. You want this over and I agree. It's gone on long enough and from here on in it's basically a game of kicking a crippled man. However, considering the winning side has to sit down and say enough is enough, posturing and barring their teeth isn't going to give that winning side any real reason to even think about it.

You're version of this ending is the winners just throwing their hands up in frustration and doing whatever to end this. It's just not realistic and not going to happen.

/and btw, if you wanna roll with the barbs my way, we can take it to another thread. It has no point here.

[Enzos]

well we can rebuilt, while you can do zip with 18 alliances watching your defensive war slots.

[WarriorConcept]

We know karma won, duh, we are the best position to know.

You only get your loot if we give it to you. As thing stand now, you aren't getting zip.

From what I hear from the front lines they're still looting plenty.

[HeinousOne]

sometimes there aren't any plans.. NPO was the first aggresor. All others just got dragged in by the treaty chain.

But now the ball and the power is in Karma's court. The world is waiting for an end to this damned war.

Look at all that NPO lost.

1. They lost their beloved hold on Red Sphere and I highly doubt they will ever get it back. This means that at some point they may not control all three senate seats.

2. They lost all of their beloved diplomatic power. To anyone that knows how NPO worked, it was their diplomatic power that made them so strong not their military power.

3. They have lost something like 60+ points on the score and I am not even going to try and state what that is in total NS although I am sure someone knows and could say.

4. They have always denied ever losing a war in the past. They have no shot at saying that this time, their beloved invulnerability that they believed internally is forever shattered.

5. They have lost their ability to control the way the world turns. Now they will be a pawn instead of a King.

To anyone who knows the NPO culture, you know how much all of this means to them. I cannot attest to how humbled they are now but they are smart enough to realize they are no longer the pinnacle of CN but are now simply just another alliance.

All you do by continuing to poke, prod and insult is to further inflame them and drive their resolve to deny any terms. Look how long everyone has been attempting to insult them into accepting. Is it working? If you say yes to that then you are honest blind to the situation or you simply do not wish to speak the truth.

The war is over folks. OV is defended and NPO will not be able to do what it has done in the past for a long, long time and that is only if they are the only ones to grow while everyone else stays stagnant. More likely they will never be able to ever again do what they did in the past. Take your damned victory people and shut up. The world is becoming tired of the amateur insults and threats repeated over and over. If they aren't then they should be because much better and interesting times are on the horizon.

No, as a matter of fact I didn't miss any mark. You want this over and I agree. It's gone on long enough and from here on in it's basically a game of kicking a crippled man. However, considering the winning side has to sit down and say enough is enough, posturing and barring their teeth isn't going to give that winning side any real reason to even think about it.

You're version of this ending is the winners just throwing their hands up in frustration and doing whatever to end this. It's just not realistic and not going to happen.

/and btw, if you wanna roll with the barbs my way, we can take it to another thread. It has no point here.

Hold on there, I NEVER said to just throw hands up in frustration and do whatever to end this. I realize one would have to follow all my posts to get a complete idea of what I want and that would probably be maddening but I have offered up a few suggestions to a few who would listen. Basically the idea isnt to completely remove that one term and call it quits. You actually have leaders doing their job and working together to come up with a solution to offer a different term that can have similiar affects but that will be accepted.

So far all we have seen is one set of terms delivered and after that it has basically looked like the leaders were too lazy to continue to work and think of ways to get it done. If I was in those alliances I would ask for my taxes back as their politicians suck.

Personally what I would do is restrict them from signing diplomacy in the future for a determined amount of time and during that time some of the victors protect them. In the future you will see the remaining blocs begin to posture, that is especially true now seeing the divisions come to light over just these terms. What you dont want is an NPO that is rebuilding being approached by all the blocs to see where they stand. At some point all these evened out blocs will try to garner strength wherever they can.

So instead to stop this, have everyone agree on this term to keep the NPO from signing diplomacy. Give up on the post surrender attacks, they obviously are not going to budge. Time to be proactive alliance leaders. Come up with something new. If NPO constantly declines differing terms then you might have an argument but for now you have just offered one set. That makes you look like you are either unable to put much thought into it or that all 18 alliances simply cannot ever agree on anything. Which ones will soon be the first ones to say they have had enough of the annoyance of such and just walk away from the war? From what I hear those meetings about the terms are pretty frustrating.

Edited July 9, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Sylar]

Surrender terms. They’re on everyone’s minds at the moment. What shall we do about the vanquished Hegemony?

So far, we've seen the harshest terms in history handed out to the former Hegemony alliances. Echelon was the latest example of this, when they were told to pay extensive reps and Caffine was excluded from government, among other restrictions. NPO were offered terms designed to destroy their alliance, and they declined them. However, when Karma started out, they condemned harsh surrender terms. Why the discrepancy?

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Firstly, I think that people are afraid of Pacifica's vengeance, should they be allowed to rebuild. As I see it, the problem with this is that cowardice is at the core of it, and not the morals which first characterised Karma. Come, my brothers! Is it not important to uphold our morals, even when there is a vague threat of attack many months ahead of us? Have courage, and roll those !@#$%^&* if they attempt to dispatch us in the future! But don't abandon your morals.

Secondly, I think that there are some people who want to totally destroy the Hegemony via terms, because they think that by doing this they will eradicate immoral practices from the face of Planet Bob. They see this as a singular act of immorality, that will not be repeated, that will prevent the Hegemony from exercising these practices ever again. What you fail to understand is that even if Pacifica are destroyed, these practices will not cease. They will simply be taken up by the next tyrannical dictator. The only way to prevent harsh terms and other abominable habits is to establish a precedent on a scale never-before-seen. I'm talking about giving reasonable terms to Pacifica and TPF, and perhaps rethinking Echelon's terms, here and now.

Imagine. The response on the CNF, the shockwaves that would be sent throughout our community. The first moral war on this scale that has been fought since before I started playing this game. The change that would take place in the way that we play, setting new standards to replace those that the Hegemony put in place. Don't let those standards remain. Above all, don't let Karma turn into the new Hegemony. Don't let the cycle continue.

"And you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope one day you'll join us..."

they could pay the terms easily they made the legion pay 800 million post GW3 why cant they pay that?(i think only thing i dislike is peace mode thing(which was put in place because karma is terrible at staggering even though you greatly out number someone) other then that i think they should have a few of there gov ejected like they did to so many. they even admitted they could pay it of i recall. Echelons terms were badly proportioned for them thats like 3/5 of there tech lol. i think TPF might get a white peace but thats just me as for NPO they aint getting out of this till they accept or the next great war happens lol.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Sylar

[Waterana]

What they're looting is mostly their fellow members previously stolen cash/tech. Not exactly a lot of our own left after this long at war.

[WarriorConcept]

What they're looting is mostly their fellow members previously stolen cash/tech. Not exactly a lot of our own left after this long at war.

There's plenty left, just most of it is in peace mode.

[Enzos]

But now the ball and the power is in Karma's court. The world is waiting for an end to this damned war.

Look at all that NPO lost.

1. They lost their beloved hold on Red Sphere and I highly doubt they will ever get it back. This means that at some point they may not control all three senate seats.

2. They lost all of their beloved diplomatic power. To anyone that knows how NPO worked, it was their diplomatic power that made them so strong not their military power.

3. They have lost something like 60+ points on the score and I am not even going to try and state what that is in total NS although I am sure someone knows and could say.

4. They have always denied ever losing a war in the past. They have no shot at saying that this time, their beloved invulnerability that they believed internally is forever shattered.

5. They have lost their ability to control the way the world turns. Now they will be a pawn instead of a King.

To anyone who knows the NPO culture, you know how much all of this means to them. I cannot attest to how humbled they are now but they are smart enough to realize they are no longer the pinnacle of CN but are now simply just another alliance.

All you do by continuing to poke, prod and insult is to further inflame them and drive their resolve to deny any terms. Look how long everyone has been attempting to insult them into accepting. Is it working? If you say yes to that then you are honest blind to the situation or you simply do not wish to speak the truth.

The war is over folks. OV is defended and NPO will not be able to do what it has done in the past for a long, long time and that is only if they are the only ones to grow while everyone else stays stagnant. More likely they will never be able to ever again do what they did in the past. Take your damned victory people and shut up. The world is becoming tired of the amateur insults and threats repeated over and over. If they aren't then they should be because much better and interesting times are on the horizon.

I agree, contact Karma alliances governments and restart negotiations!

too bad that this comes from a non NPO nation though.

[Waterana]

they could pay the terms easily they made the legion pay 800 million and a !@#$ load of tech post GW3 why cant they pay that? only thing i dislike is peace mode thing(which was put in place because karma is terrible at staggering even though you greatly out number someone) other then that i think they should have a few of there gov ejected like they did to so many. they even admitted they could pay it of i recall. Echelons terms were badly proportioned for them thats like 3/5 of there tech lol. i think TPF might get a white peace but thats just me as for NPO they aint getting out of this till they accept or the next great war happens llol.

I was in Legion for GW3 and a couple of months afterwards. There were no tech reps required. There was an option to send tech instead of cash, 50 for 3 million, but we were ordered by Legion govt not to do that so tech from us wouldn't be adding to their strength. The response was 'let them buy their own damm tech'. As I was ZIed in that war, I did tech deals (aid wasn't restricted in or out of the Legion) and sent it to the big nations in return for them sending a cash reps payment.

If NPO doesn't get out until the next big war, fine. The terms presented to us have been rejected. No amount of increasingly deperate demands from our enemies is going to change our minds on that. If you want to destroy our alliance, you'll have to work for it. We aren't going to do it for you by accepting those impossible destructive terms.

[WarriorConcept]

I was in Legion for GW3 and a couple of months afterwards. There were no tech reps required. There was an option to send tech instead of cash, 50 for 3 million, but we were ordered by Legion govt not to do that so tech from us wouldn't be adding to their strength. The response was 'let them buy their own damm tech'. As I was ZIed in that war, I did tech deals (aid wasn't restricted in or out of the Legion) and sent it to the big nations in return for them sending a cash reps payment.

If NPO doesn't get out until the next big war, fine. The terms presented to us have been rejected. No amount of increasingly deperate demands from our enemies is going to change our minds on that. If you want to destroy our alliance, you'll have to work for it. We aren't going to do it for you by accepting those impossible destructive terms.

I don't think your opponents are getting desperate by you not accepting surrender terms.

[HeinousOne]

I don't think your opponents are getting desperate by you not accepting surrender terms.

Yeah, as if you guys want to fight forever. The chest bumping match is getting old WC.

[Waterana]

Shrug, could have fooled me.

[Enzos]

WC? no need for that if no one is fighting back

[Sal Paradise]

But now the ball and the power is in Karma's court. The world is waiting for an end to this damned war.

Look at all that NPO lost.

1. They lost their beloved hold on Red Sphere and I highly doubt they will ever get it back. This means that at some point they may not control all three senate seats.

2. They lost all of their beloved diplomatic power. To anyone that knows how NPO worked, it was their diplomatic power that made them so strong not their military power.

3. They have lost something like 60+ points on the score and I am not even going to try and state what that is in total NS although I am sure someone knows and could say.

4. They have always denied ever losing a war in the past. They have no shot at saying that this time, their beloved invulnerability that they believed internally is forever shattered.

5. They have lost their ability to control the way the world turns. Now they will be a pawn instead of a King.

To anyone who knows the NPO culture, you know how much all of this means to them.

My heart, you've broken it sir.

[WarriorConcept]

Yeah, as if you guys want to fight forever. The chest bumping match is getting old WC.

The terms have been offered already, and they'll be changing as time goes on. But NPO thinking the coalition against it is desperate at all is laughable.

[HeinousOne]

The terms have been offered already, and they'll be changing as time goes on. But NPO thinking the coalition against it is desperate at all is laughable.

I would agree that the coalition is not desperate. No one has yet pulled out due to the frustration of all those leaders trying to work together.

The chest bumping on Both sides is getting old, I will amend that little statement. Better?

[WarriorConcept]

I would agree that the coalition is not desperate. No one has yet pulled out due to the frustration of all those leaders trying to work together.

The chest bumping on Both sides is getting old, I will amend that little statement. Better?

There's no need for chest bumping from our side, but we will remind them that they're not really in a position to do so.

[BamaBuc]

I don't think your opponents are getting desperate by you not accepting surrender terms.

You're right, but at some point, there is gonna be another world war. People are not going to want to fight on two fronts. When big new enemies come along, people realize that the old, beaten ones aren't so important anymore. My guess is that one side will white-peace NPO and the other won't. Both will use it for propaganda ("see, we let old grudges go" "see, we kept our resolve to punish NPO even when it was convenient to let up"). NPO will probably come out of hippy and launch a full blitz on their remaining foes, who will already be heavily engaged. They'll likely get lighter peace terms from that side postwar, but not white peace (unless that side loses, in which case it likely won't be a choice for them). I think that's what NPO's counting on, as FAN has done twice, and I think they'll get it. The world won't stay united forever, even against NPO.

-Bama

[WarriorConcept]

You're right, but at some point, there is gonna be another world war. People are not going to want to fight on two fronts. When big new enemies come along, people realize that the old, beaten ones aren't so important anymore. My guess is that one side will white-peace NPO and the other won't. Both will use it for propaganda ("see, we let old grudges go" "see, we kept our resolve to punish NPO even when it was convenient to let up"). NPO will probably come out of hippy and launch a full blitz on their remaining foes, who will already be heavily engaged. They'll likely get lighter peace terms from that side postwar, but not white peace (unless that side loses, in which case it likely won't be a choice for them). I think that's what NPO's counting on, as FAN has done twice, and I think they'll get it. The world won't stay united forever, even against NPO.

-Bama

If NPO wants to wait as long as FAN did, cool.

[KingSuck]

You mean like the example of giving very easy terms to 90% of the alliances of the Hegemony, removing the standards of PZI for government, viceroys, disbandments and unfair terms? Get a grip Fran, NPO are being treated differently for very good reason, and the good precedent you are talking about has already been set by Karma in this war.

oh come on. PZI for gov was extremely rare, you guys had nothing to do with getting rid of viceroys (that was admin), forced disbandments were even rarer than PZI for gov (and your alliance was involved in the only case I can think of) and you guys certainly haven't gotten rid of unfair terms.

Karma won, Hegemony lost. You ask why? Most alliances didn't want to be on hegemony's side, WHY? they destroyed alliances, acted liked a tyrant. Now Karma won and karma get´s the loots, Hegemony get´s to deal with the consequences. You didn't lose a battle but you lost the war. Deal with it!

Your alliance was a major part of this 'tyrant' until the start of this war, why does it not have to deal with the consequences?

[King DrunkWino]

You're right, but at some point, there is gonna be another world war. People are not going to want to fight on two fronts. When big new enemies come along, people realize that the old, beaten ones aren't so important anymore. My guess is that one side will white-peace NPO and the other won't. Both will use it for propaganda ("see, we let old grudges go" "see, we kept our resolve to punish NPO even when it was convenient to let up"). NPO will probably come out of hippy and launch a full blitz on their remaining foes, who will already be heavily engaged. They'll likely get lighter peace terms from that side postwar, but not white peace (unless that side loses, in which case it likely won't be a choice for them). I think that's what NPO's counting on, as FAN has done twice, and I think they'll get it. The world won't stay united forever, even against NPO.

-Bama

More likely than not, if things just happen to fall into place perfectly. Then again, it has happened before.

-LSU

[Sal Paradise]

If NPO wants to wait as long as FAN did, cool.

This is what I've been pushing for from the beginning.

[KingSuck]

If NPO wants to wait as long as FAN did, cool.

FAN were only kept down so long because the NPO was in such a dominant position of power. The alliances fighting NPO are nowhere near that amount of power and the NPO is a lot more powerful than FAN were so I sincerely doubt NPO will have to wait anywhere near that long if that's the route they choose to go.