I have a dream.

[Walt Schmidt]

From an NPO grunt...

I've posted these before, elsewhere. Seems like a good time to post them again.

Colin Powell’s 10 Rules

1. It ain’t as bad as you think. It will look better in the morning.

2. Get mad, then get over it.

3. Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it.

4. It can be done!

5. Be careful what you choose. You may get it.

6. Don’t let adverse facts stand in the way of a good decision.

7. You can’t make someone else’s choices. You shouldn’t let someone else make yours.

8. Check small things.

9. Share credit.

10. Remain calm. Be kind.

Colin Powell (b. 1937), U.S. General. “Colin Powell’s Rules”, with Joseph E. Persico, Random House (1995).

Looking at them, quickly...

At day 78 of this war it does look better than it did on day 38; who would've thought.

It's a shame some of the more vociferous posters never seem to get over what it is they need to get over. Perhaps they have let their egos get too close to their position.

For me the initial question was a simple one: when the dust settles did you want NPO to survive?

Based on the 'full' terms given us, it would seem the answer to that question was and still is no.

So you can legitimize until you are blue in the face why the terms offered were the terms that needed to be offered. No one in NPO bought that reason or would accept the current terms.

Everyone should at least admit to themselves that that (you do not want NPO to survive) is why NPO will not accept the terms as given.

The current question then is just as simple: want NPO to accept the terms? Then give us survivable terms.

p.s. and no need to describe how the current terms are doable; doable does not mean survivable... but I bet you knew that already [ smile ].

[Electron Sponge]

Personally I want the NPO to change into something less fanatic and fascist/imperialist, and as that is not going to happen any time in the future I want this war to be a certain, undeniable total defeat to the NPO.

Yeah, no way NPO ever changes the way it is. A very clearly worded admission of defeat is something which I believe NPO would probably agree to at this point. I of course am not on speaking terms with any of them but I'm not sure how they could deny it at this point.

Let them have a taste of what they inflicted upon GATO, let them no what it's like to have an unbeatable behemoth run them down when there's no where to run and hiding will only make things worse.

An eye for an eye as they say.

Yeah, I think they get it now. Here's the point where they are told, "Now you know what it feels like, next time you want to act like jerks how about you remember this moment and be sporting?"

I've been a victim of NPO's aggression, and their duplicitous dealings with others. I've lost quite a bit due to them, I dare say more than most people. Here I sit advocating a fair deal for them that they'd never have (and never did) offer me. I'm doing so because I'm a better human being than they are. I refuse to wallow in equality with scum such as them. Reciprocity means I'd be on their level and I'm not.

I'd like to think most of you are better than they are too. Perhaps I'm wrong.

[TypoNinja]

Above all, don't let Karma turn into the new Hegemony. Don't let the cycle continue.

The fact that you think this shows you to be out of touch with reality.

It can't continue, for the 50th time. Karma is not a bloc, when the war ends so does Karma, there is no treaty holding us all into one massive force. When this war ends we are not going to all band together to go around rolling whoever we please. Karma is already mostly a memory. We started with over 100 alliances and a god awful amount of NS, Less than a third of that is still fighting even now and still people spout crap about how we'll be the next hegemony.

At the peak of this war there was 10,000 individual wars we are at more like a tenth that now. Karma the new hegemony? Walford is more likely to rise from the dead to extinguish tech raiding.

[mhawk]

I hope you don't include Sparta in that list as we announced long ago that we are not seeking reps. Though there is truth to much of what you say about much of Karma, your inability or unwillingness to differentiate the force known as Karma obscures your points and their validity. As for your theories about the next war, it's a little too vague for me. Someone is always on the chopping block and that's the nature of politics. To say that NPO played a marginal role in many past conflicts is ridiculous and you know it. To say that they did it alone would also be ridiculous and I know it.

If Sparta doesn't want reps, then why not just leave the war? Not seeking reps and supporting militarily those that want astronomical reps doesn't clear you of anything.

[Matthew Conrad]

What were NPO's reps intended to do then?

Damaging them is not the same as destroying. If we intended to destroy them, you wouldn't see terms on the table.

[Matthew Conrad]

If Sparta doesn't want reps, then why not just leave the war? Not seeking reps and supporting militarily those that want astronomical reps doesn't clear you of anything.

It's simple, we do not believe in leaving our wartime allies during negotiations. They fought with us, and they deserve to have us through the negotiations instead of us simply granting white peace and heading off.

[mhawk]

Damaging them is not the same as destroying. If we intended to destroy them, you wouldn't see terms on the table.

I suppose terms must equal only to damaging. Asking for a billion tech would still be offering terms.

[mhawk]

It's simple, we do not believe in leaving our wartime allies during negotiations. They fought with us, and they deserve to have us through the negotiations instead of us simply granting white peace and heading off.

Then I shouldn't expect to see any Sparta folks condeeming my stance on staying in war until FAN and NPO made peace. Our crimes sound familiar ?

[Drai]

If Sparta doesn't want reps, then why not just leave the war? Not seeking reps and supporting militarily those that want astronomical reps doesn't clear you of anything.

It says something about their dedication to their allies.

[mhawk]

It says something about their dedication to their allies.

My point was to show the two faced nature of "crimes". Many of which are being used to justify extreme punishments now.

[Drai]

My point was to show the two faced nature of "crimes". Many of which are being used to justify extreme punishments now.

But that's not as large a factor as friendship/dedication so it can't really be used against them.

[Drostan]

If Sparta doesn't want reps, then why not just leave the war? Not seeking reps and supporting militarily those that want astronomical reps doesn't clear you of anything.

Because contrary to most empircal evidence, not every alliance is just looking to showboat and score brownie points. Though we may not agree with every decision all our allies make, we do believe that the war against the NPO was justified and until a peace can be brokered we will not exit that war. As Matt Conrad has said, we are not going to abandon our allies while the conflict continues. We will leave this war when it is over. I don't think you honestly believe that we would have a greater impact by abandoning our allies during negotiations only to try to claim some high ground than sticking through and trying to affect change from within Karma. Surely, people can see that.

Who is to be cleared then, mhawk? Those alliances who supported the war against the NPO but did not help who now jeer and goad Karma from the sidelines because they didn't bother to dirty their hands through conflict? Come now. We know better than that. This has been a messy war, and sticking with it requires grit as you know, and Sparta's chalked full of grit.

[Infinite Narwhal]

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Yes, very true. I made this to reinforce this point.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Infinite Narwhal

[ShinRa]

The current question then is just as simple: want NPO to accept the terms? Then give us survivable terms.

They only thing which is not making them survivable is the fact that your leaders a too proud to accept when they're beaten and agree to surrender to the terms given to them, and quite frankly it would not be a surprise to find out that your leaders would rather see the NPO destroyed and it's every last expendable nation ZI'd than surrender.

Your alliance has dropped by almost 100K in the last day and is losing more members as we speak, if you are incapable of paying them off then it is only because those who you lead were too stubborn and arrogant to accept them when they were first offered and you were in a much better position to pay them off.

Yeah, I think they get it now. Here's the point where they are told, "Now you know what it feels like, next time you want to act like jerks how about you remember this moment and be sporting?"

If you recall diplomacy was attempted and they attacked during peace talks. And before anyone says it, I really don’t buy that whole idea that it was a simple misunderstanding, it seems too like them for the NPO to try and pull something like this then claim innocence.

“Some lessons can only be taught though blood and sweat, not words. Sometimes people will only learn when they realize that there are bigger !@#$%^&* than they are, with bigger guns, in this world.”

I've been a victim of NPO's aggression, and their duplicitous dealings with others. I've lost quite a bit due to them, I dare say more than most people. Here I sit advocating a fair deal for them that they'd never have (and never did) offer me. I'm doing so because I'm a better human being than they are. I refuse to wallow in equality with scum such as them. Reciprocity means I'd be on their level and I'm not.

I'd like to think most of you are better than they are too. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Being a better person doesn’t mean much when the !@#$%^&* are on top ruling over everyone else.

Sometimes to preserve whatever you value whether it be your morals, your friends or your sense of justice, sometimes you have to abandon it in order to make sure that the greatest threat to it is dealt with once and for all. To make sure that for a time at least those values will not be threatened.

Edited July 8, 2009 by ShinRa

[SonOfHoward]

That is not quite correct, SonOfHoward. The counter-offer removed the demand that large NPO nations (ie. the ones that would pay the reps) would go through 2 weeks of nuclear war beforehand, and it was this that allowed us to offer more cash in return -- not to pay it off faster, but (in our estimation) to make it payable at all. It is this demand to destroy our top large nations that has been the sticking point, not the length of time over which we will pay the reps -- if that were the case Karma could simply add a 'pay no more than X amount per week' clause.

Ah ok then, that is something that makes more sense.

I can only speak from experience; I was nuked for 2 weeks every day while throwing everything I had back at my opponents and I survived, I wasn't destroyed. Unless they have zero money, heck even if they have zero money NPO will be still alive, battered all to hell, but alive.

Also note the bolded part in case this cycles back to the ability of the NPO to pay reps:

2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgement of the Karma signatories of this document. All reparations of technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology at the end of the abovementioned 14 day period.

Edited July 8, 2009 by SonOfHoward

[Electron Sponge]

If you recall diplomacy was attempted and they attacked during peace talks. And before anyone says it, I really don’t buy that whole idea that it was a simple misunderstanding, it seems too in character for the NPO to try and pull something like this then claim innocence.

“Some lessons can only be taught though blood and sweat, not words. Sometimes people will only learn when they realize that there are bigger !@#$%^&* than they are, with bigger guns, in this world.”

I think that lesson has been taught adequately. You're not going to get NPO to turn into GPA. They're always going to have a chip on their shoulder. I believe that a better way to demonstrate that the way NPO (and its allies, lest we forget they didn't do any of this alone) treated others is unacceptable is to not do exactly the same thing to them.

Being a better person doesn’t mean much when the !@#$%^&* are on top ruling over everyone else,

They're not ruling over anyone anymore, nor will they be. Their reputation is irreparably damaged and they'll likely spend a long, long time as a pariah. As well they should.

Sometimes to preserve whatever you value whether it be your morals, your friends or your sense of justice, sometimes you have to abandon it in order to make sure that the greatest threat to it is dealt with once and for all. To make sure that for a time at least those values will not be threatened.

To abandon an ideal in order to save it is to destroy any shred of meaning held in that ideal. Espousing an ideal only when it is convenient for you to do so makes the ideal worthless. You either believe in it and stand by it or you abandon it and state that you no longer believe in it.

[Walt Schmidt]

They only thing which is not making them survivable is the fact that your leaders a too proud to accept when they're beaten and agree to surrender to the terms given to them

The requirement of our larger Nations to leave peace-mode for two weeks of (nuking) being an unacceptable term is NOT a prideful fault of our leaders; leastwise in my opinion.

[Drostan]

The requirement of our larger Nations to leave peace-mode for two weeks of (nuking) being an unacceptable term is NOT a prideful fault of our leaders; leastwise in my opinion.

Well, it's good for those that remain untouched in peacemode I guess... heh.

[Vladimir]

Ah ok then, that is something that makes more sense.

I can only speak from experience; I was nuked for 2 weeks every day while throwing everything I had back at my opponents and I survived, I wasn't destroyed. Unless they have zero money, heck even if they have zero money NPO will be still alive, battered all to hell, but alive.

The situations, unfortunately, are not comparable.

The nations will survive insofar as it is impossible to actually physically destroy them; however, after they have been 'battered to all hell' they (or at least, those who still exist -- many of our large nations are semi-retired and would likely just delete) are then expected to pay $7 billion and 300k tech in reparations, something that our economists tell us is impossible on the terms demanded. So the nations are levelled, just about all of our cash flows out to other alliances for an extremely prolonged period (perhaps to be noted in years rather than months), and the rest of our alliance -- 600 or so players -- sit in ruins. And this is assuming that Karma doesn't simply redeclare on a 'lolFANkarma' ticket when we fail to meet a monthly reparation quota (or make some other perceived infraction) as I and many others expect they would.

Compared to this, war is a doddle.

I should add to this that the Order is not opposed to surrender. It is not opposed to terms. It is not even opposed to incredibly harsh terms. It is opposed to these terms.

[mhawk]

I don't think you honestly believe that we would have a greater impact by abandoning our allies during negotiations only to try to claim some high ground than sticking through and trying to affect change from within Karma. Surely, people can see that.

As my other post indicated, then you are no more guilty or innocent than TPF regarding our actions on FAN. We most certainly are being held account for all sorts of actions, my attempt was to get you to see that not all the "crimes" you feel warranting retribution are so crystal clear morally as propaganda has attempted to paint.

[Freelancer]

They're not ruling over anyone anymore, nor will they be. Their reputation is irreparably damaged and they'll likely spend a long, long time as a pariah. As well they should.

I chuckled, however if all the rumors are true about Frostbite excepting NPO after this is all said and done with, sounds like Ivan, Taga and yourself would or could have one hell a military force backing you.

One could even speculate that this was long term goal of yours and even Ivan, obviously this is all speculation on my part watching you guys work for the past three years, however it does have a tinfoil hat wearing logic to it , doesn’t it

[kevin32891]

They only thing which is not making them survivable is the fact that your leaders a too proud to accept when they're beaten

Where have you been? Did you read Moo's thread that was 200 pages long?

[kevin32891]

*snip*

speculation

I can also speculate that NPO and MK will merge one day.

But then again its speculation.

[Electron Sponge]

I chuckled, however if all the rumors are true about Frostbite excepting NPO after this is all said and done with, sounds like Ivan, Taga and yourself would or could have one hell a military force backing you.

One could even speculate that this was long term goal of yours and even Ivan, obviously this is all speculation on my part watching you guys work for the past three years, however it does have a tinfoil hat wearing logic to it , doesn’t it

Let me be perfectly blunt (not that I wouldn't normally be):

Under no circumstances will I ever be allied with the New Pacific Order again, ever.

[Freelancer]

I can also speculate that NPO and MK will merge one day.

But then again its speculation.

Theres a big difference, my scenario actually makes sense and is highly plausible.

Edit After Sponge reply..

Thanks for the bluntness

Edited July 8, 2009 by Freelancer