I have a dream.

[Waterana]

uh no sorry some of us were straight up about our motives, perhaps you just happened to noticed the posts of 'high profile' Karma figures , did you also fail to notice the amount of internal Karma disagreements when terms were handed to Valhalla? there was plenty of Karma-Headz moaning about the lack of 'gravity' in the terms back then. Naturally its your right to complain but do not think any of us on the other side of the fence will sit there and let you and your sympathizers have run of the place

My posts are aimed at those fighting us and Echelon. I don't think ODN fought Echelon, but know they never fought us.

[Beauty]

My posts are aimed at those fighting us and Echelon. I don't think ODN fought Echelon, but know they never fought us.

Not in Karma War, But they have NPO in the past (Citrus war and Moar i think)

[ShinRa]

My posts are aimed at those fighting us and Echelon. I don't think ODN fought Echelon, but know they never fought us.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Citrus_War

Also, last time I looked Echelon had left the Karma War.

[Waterana]

Fine, I made a mistake. Sorry, its late here. Those who fought/are fighting us and Echelon. Better?

[Weirdgus]

In the start of the Karma Conflict, ODN's entry was their DoW against FEAR , citing a MDP with R&R despite their "Blood Brothers" treaty with IRON. Subsequently, IRON canceled their treaty with ODN 15 minutes later and one day later wolfpack and UCN declared back on ODN in support of FEAR.The last DoW of the war that ODN made was another 2 days later on NATO .

Also the list of current alliances fighting beside NPO are: TPF, Avalon and 64 Digits.

[Cataduanes]

ODN did not directly fight NPO in this conflict but we are providing logistical aid to those still in the field, we are doing what we can to help...had politics allowed i would have jumped at the chance to fight the Order, you guys owe me alot of compensation for the GATO-1V curbstomp

Edited July 9, 2009 by Cataduanes

[NoFish]

Seriously,

You (those who fought us and Echelon) have people who fought on the Karma side of the war calling you out for the terms you've given/presented to us. They have no love for us. They are just as quick to condemn us for our past 'crimes' as you are. Some of them are past victims of our 'crimes'. The reason they're not happy is Karma was presented at the start of this war as the end of the hegemony and tyranny, a new beginning. No more of this stuff.

Yes, I know, some of you are now stating you never agreed with that, but none of you said so at the start. Only once you had us down did it emerge. Continuing to try to answer our rejection of your terms, which are something not seen before nor something ever given by us to others, with a 'no U' mentality is stupid. These terms are designed to continue the war after the peace, both the extra war and tech reps restriction are there to deal out more damage, as you can't really hurt us anymore by fighting us out in the open.

Yes, you won the war and have a right to give us whatever terms you like, just as we have the right to say no thanks and complain about it.

Once again, nice ignoratio elenchi. If you want to try responding to my argument at some point, feel free.

Just as a recap I said that these terms aren't as harsh as some of the ones given out in the past (particularly those given by you), thus to say that they're the harshest terms in Planet Bob's history is just plain untrue.

[Drostan]

I agree with the OP. Karma championed itself as the voice of change when the war first began. Now they are trying to dole out the harshest peace terms we have ever seen. Violence begets violence. It's like spanking a child for hitting. Are you really teaching them anything else but violence?

An old lady drives home slowly in a snow storm. Behind her a young man impatiently tailgates her and flashes his high beams out of frustration. He waits for his moment to pass. He floors the car and whips around her but loses control on the icy road and goes in the ditch. The old lady slowly pulls over to the side of the road. The young man, with his car hopelessly stuck, steps out of his vehicle. The old lady opens her door and tells the young man to get in. The young man sheepishly climbs up out of the ditch and with his head down enters the car. "I'm sorry", the young man says.

No, ambition begets violence and Planet Bob (hopefully) will never be rid of ambition. As has been said many times, whether or not we give harsh or lenient terms to NPO will likely have little to no effect on whether or not the seek revenge (if they are able they will in one form or another). That doesn't mean we should necessarily give them really harsh tersm, however, I think that the terms are being exaggerated. The reps are supposed to be scaled down after the damage done during the two weeks of additional war. And though Vlad says "yeah, but they won't really scale down the reps" that only shows that he never even really tried to negotiate them. He just assumed that the reps would remain harsh and rejected the terms publicly.

It seems to me that the NPO is parading their suffering in public in the hopes that eventually, if they keep at it, they will escape the humiliation of having to accept terms by confusing the public into thinking that Karma is fighting an infinite war with them. I feel Vlad already tried to move in that direction with a comment of mine weeks ago but it proved premature and less effective than he had hoped. The truth is rather that if a losing party utterly refuses peace terms what is the dominant side to do? You can't just let them off otherwise you lose all power to enforce any rules at all. You can't just cow tau to them because then every time someone gets vanquished in a war they will simply peace out most of their big nations and let the damages ones absorb endless damage until the terms are reduced. Karma is not keeping NPO in war, NPO is purposely staying in a war where they know they can't really sustain any more damage than they've already taken.

Going public immediately was a mistake because it put both sides in a rough spot. Now neither side can reasonably back down unless the NPO makes a significant and earnest (not a propaganda announcement in public) attempt to connect with the leaders who are at war with them. But why would they bother? Instead they and others they've found to help them are leaning on Karma publicly because they are counting on the fact that most people won't understand that staying in war longer for them now is good so long as nobody comes out of peace mode. All the pontificating of the past weeks was worthless if some of their peace moders have to come out and fight and that is why they oppose that term most of all.

Meanwhile, other groups who recognize this are trying to turn it to their advantage. They understand that 'Karma' can't let the go of the tiger's tale and they also know that the tiger is playing dead (I love terrible metaphors). So they ridicule both sides but put most pressure on Karma because if they can taint Karma with the same 'crimes' of NPO they can just chalk it up of a case where the punishment had to match the crime but now the world is better and there is no place for Karmas or Hegemonys. Basically, they are hoping that we destroy each other. The NPO will be kept in a state of war for a long time and continue to bleed members and strength while Karma will be judged as evil and despicable because they were so merciless in their pursuit of a tyrant.

Anyway, those are the thoughts that are bouncing around under my tinfoil hat these days. I know most people won't bother to make sense of the situation but will just say "reps r 2 bad" and "u just like teh other gais who r dumb". Even though I think negotiating the original terms would work perfectly well, after all the posturing by NPO and those other fellows apparently not directly involved, I think Karma needs to work to protect itself. I won't speculate as to how I would go about doing that because I am not in a position to make that difference. We may not bend much but we must bend because those who do not... break.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Drostan

[Francesca]

Really? Then what else could the focus of this thread be? As more time goes by, it's becoming clearer that your focus here and elsewhere is strictly about you. Nothing in this thread or the OP is in the least bit original and has been said elsewhere, ad infinitum.

Please, point me to the part of the OP that ranted about me.

This I agree with, you're not weak-minded at all. Your past speaks volumes about that. However, I do find the OP quite curious in one respect. When you were busy spying for Vox, which I will presume to mean that you wanted to see the destruction of the hegemony (as ES and others very clearly stated), how did you think this would end?

I presumed that the New Pacific Order would be hit hard in war and taught a lesson. I then expected them to be subjected to reasonably tough terms, while the focus of the political situation moved on and focused on other alliances and blocs, as it has focused on the New Pacific Order for the past two years.

If the hegemony was filled with demons, you thought sending angels would accomplish the task? Of course not, you send monsters to kill monsters. That's the way it has worked, that's the way it will always work. Only now, when the monsters you helped to send are screaming for the blood that motivated them to join your cause do you second guess the very nature of those monsters.

The reason that you kill the monsters, is that they are monsters. If one group of monsters slaughters another group of monsters, then the victorious group of monsters remains and the situation is as bad as before. No, it takes angels to kill demons, and once the demons are gone only angels remain (until some more demons turn up, heh.)

If you want to play power politics, I'd suggest you not wear white in the future.

No.

[NoFish]

The reason that you kill the monsters, is that they are monsters. If one group of monsters slaughters another group of monsters, then the victorious group of monsters remains and the situation is as bad as before. No, it takes angels to kill demons, and once the demons are gone only angels remain (until some more demons turn up, heh.)

You're sounding like you're quoting from GOD's playbook now. Not that I don't approve but it seems like a rather good counterargument to your original post (which you still haven't responded to me calling you out on, by the way) in that NPO isn't dead. They have more NS right now than Ragnarok. How are the angels supposed to kill the demons if they stay their hand with the sword at the demon's neck?

[VIdiot the Great]

Please, point me to the part of the OP that ranted about me.

Please reread the quoted part. I didn't say you ranted about you. I did say your focus appears to be on you both here and throughout.

I presumed that the New Pacific Order would be hit hard in war and taught a lesson. I then expected them to be subjected to reasonably tough terms, while the focus of the political situation moved on and focused on other alliances and blocs, as it has focused on the New Pacific Order for the past two years.

What the hell does that mean (see bolded section)? One man's reason is another man's lunacy.

The reason that you kill the monsters, is that they are monsters.

Agreed.

If one group of monsters slaughters another group of monsters, then the victorious group of monsters remains and the situation is as bad as before.

Nope, not necessarily. As has been shown throughout this very thread, peace terms issued by Karma have been, by and large, pretty darn reasonable.

No, it takes angels to kill demons, and once the demons are gone only angels remain (until some more demons turn up, heh.)

So just out of curiosity, are you an angel? Or does the whole spying thing ruin that? You know, the whole 'betraying trust placed in you by others' thing? Ringing any bells?

No.

Ok, then by all means, wear white. Just don't !@#$%* about the bloodstains. Or the fact that they don't come out.

VI

Edited July 9, 2009 by VIdiot the Great

[Gn0xious Jr]

@those of you saying, "karma said they'd show light terms/white peace through the war, now they aren't!!!"

I seem to remember the discussion regarding the first white peace offered. Several stated that the white peace/light terms would be considered for non-NPO alliances. NPO specifically, would receive very harsh terms. I fail to see how this was a surprise to anyone, and how it is hypocritical when it was laid out from the beginning...

The reason that you kill the monsters, is that they are monsters. If one group of monsters slaughters another group of monsters, then the victorious group of monsters remains and the situation is as bad as before. No, it takes angels to kill demons, and once the demons are gone only angels remain (until some more demons turn up, heh.)

If angels kill demons, do they not become that which they have killed? How does one KILL a demon and be considered angelic? You say "once the demons are gone" which would imply the alliance disbanding or removed from the game entirely... To me this goes against your entire argument. There are no "angelic" forces on Planet Bob, and given the mechanics of the game, the only way to fight a monster is with their own weapons/tactics. If you consider "light terms" and the like as "angelic" means to fight, then the demons won't ever be gone...

[Francesca]

What the hell does that mean (see bolded section)? One man's reason is another man's lunacy.

As a firm believer in objective truth, I would have to respectfully disagree. But in this context, all that is needed is to do the maths. Don't try and force NPO into terms intended to kill it.

Nope, not necessarily. As has been shown throughout this very thread, peace terms issued by Karma have been, by and large, pretty darn reasonable.

Yes, I am not talking about the terms issued to the rest of the Hegemony, I'm talking about NPO itself (and TPF and Echelon, I should mention.)

So just out of curiosity, are you an angel? Or does the whole spying thing ruin that? You know, the whole 'betraying trust placed in you by others' thing? Ringing any bells?

Just like anyone else, I have done !@#$ that is wrong. However, I am not ashamed of informing on MCXA. I have already explained why in my memoirs thread, some time ago.

@those of you saying, "karma said they'd show light terms/white peace through the war, now they aren't!!!"

I seem to remember the discussion regarding the first white peace offered. Several stated that the white peace/light terms would be considered for non-NPO alliances. NPO specifically, would receive very harsh terms. I fail to see how this was a surprise to anyone, and how it is hypocritical when it was laid out from the beginning...

I can't be bothered finding the quote, but does Neverender's post ring any bells? "We shall not impose draconian terms?"

If angels kill demons, do they not become that which they have killed? How does one KILL a demon and be considered angelic? You say "once the demons are gone" which would imply the alliance disbanding or removed from the game entirely... To me this goes against your entire argument.

I was talking about the example that VI gave, and I was not suggesting that NPO be "killed."

There are no "angelic" forces on Planet Bob, and given the mechanics of the game, the only way to fight a monster is with their own weapons/tactics. If you consider "light terms" and the like as "angelic" means to fight, then the demons won't ever be gone...

I never suggested giving NPO "light terms." I suggested giving them livable ones.

[Cataduanes]

I can't be bothered finding the quote, but does Neverender's post ring any bells? "We shall not impose draconian terms?"

That is one leaders post, and while i have sincere respect for Archon he does not speak for me as an individual, i wish i could claim to be more noble but the fact is in regards to this war and prosecution of total victory i feel no such qualms or the need to feel sympathy for an enemy who has shown no mercy to far too many communities and individuals.

Does this make me as bad as the Pacficans? perhaps and if so i can live with that burden....but what i cannot accept is Karma backing down, to do so would be for me horribly reminiscent of ODN/Legion's folly at the end of GW1, and we wall know the subsequent misery that was the consequence of Orrples short-sighted act of mercy and i sincerely hope that Karma's various leaders do not make the same mistake.

In war there is no substitute for victory.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Cataduanes

[HeinousOne]

That is one leaders post, and while i have sincere respect for Archon he does not speak for me as an individual, i wish i could claim to be more noble but the fact is in regards to this war and prosecution of total victory i feel no such qualms or the need to feel sympathy for an enemy who has shown no mercy to far too many communities and individuals.

Does this make me as bad as the Pacficans? perhaps and if so i can live with that burden....but what i cannot accept is Karma backing down, to do so would be for me horribly reminiscent of ODN/Legion's folly at the end of GW1, and we wall know the subsequent misery that was the consequence of Orrples short-sighted act of mercy and i sincerely hope that Karma's various leaders do not make the same mistake.

In war there is no substitute for victory.

Victory happens BEFORE the terms are handed out. Victory has already been achieved. Is your entire argument based upon hype statements? You claim NPO is so horrible yet you use their actions as a measuring stick for yours as if that makes any sense at all.

"Well, NPO did this so its ok if we do just a little bit less".

To you and the others saying how you have to be in the trenches to see this clearly, that is such a load of !@#$. Those in the trenches are the farthest ones from seeing anything clearly. All you can see right now is red as your personal bloodlust for vengeance is certainly not conducive to clear thinking.

I find it absolutely helarious that you think it is "backing down" to change a single term. You know you can replace it with something else. Remove NPO ability to sign treaties for a year while under protection. You keep the leaders from doing what they have done to cause all the damage.

Oh, and please respond to this with your usual "must be an NPO sympathizer" response as that will be most amusing to see you actually say that about me.

[VIdiot the Great]

As a firm believer in objective truth, I would have to respectfully disagree. But in this context, all that is needed is to do the maths.

Ok, since I'm slow, could you kindly show me abovesaid subjective maths? Since it's objective and all, it should be self evident upon completion.

Don't try and force NPO into terms intended to kill it.

How do you know that is the intent? Are you a mindreader as well? Intent is a very tricky thing. A better sentence would have been 'Don't try to force NPO into terms that may result in its disbandment.' Oh, wait, that doesn't work either as NPO is the only one that determines whether it lives or dies. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else for that matter.

Yes, I am not talking about the terms issued to the rest of the Hegemony, I'm talking about NPO itself (and TPF and Echelon, I should mention.)

And as previously stated, the terms presented (whether I agree with them or not) are being offered essentially on a case by case basis. The people offering them seem to think that NPO has great crimes to pay for. If their assertion is true, then it can hardly be said that what is reasonable for alliance X as far as peace terms is the measure of reasonable for NPO. Different alliances, different results. Reasonable is also a moving target. Maybe the people offering the terms think without the imposition of such terms, their alliances will be at risk for destruction. That would make them reasonable? Probably.

Just like anyone else, I have done !@#$ that is wrong. However, I am not ashamed of informing on MCXA. I have already explained why in my memoirs thread, some time ago.

I could care less about your shame. Not my problem. However, if you're no angel, could you kindly point out where all these angels are that are currently 'killing' - in your words - the NPO? I don't see them. What I do see are many political realists pursuing what they feel is in the best interest of their alliances. And sometimes, like you for instance, folks have to get a little dirty to obtain those goals.

I never suggested giving NPO "light terms." I suggested giving them livable ones.

VI looks at FAN and GATO. Hmm. It appears they're still alive. Therefore, one would have to assume that the terms imposed on them were livable. And as I recall, those terms sucked big time.

A nickel's worth of free advice: your mushy language is getting you nowhere. Specifically state what terms would be 'livable' or 'reasonable' - although as I have shown above, the terms imposed in the past that have been the harshest have proven 'livable.'

In short, cut the Polyanna act and either prevail upon the folks who can do something about the terms or run the risk that your criticism of those that aided a cause that you actively helped because they had to do the dirty work while you have the luxury of your idealism.

An idealism that apparently even you can't live up to.

[Cataduanes]

Oh, and please respond to this with your usual "must be an NPO sympathizer" response as that will be most amusing to see you actually say that about me.

usual? have i been accusing all and sundry of being sympathizers? i think i used the term only once. But thanks for your two cents

[Francesca]

Does this make me as bad as the Pacficans? perhaps and if so i can live with that burden....but what i cannot accept is Karma backing down, to do so would be for me horribly reminiscent of ODN/Legion's folly at the end of GW1, and we wall know the subsequent misery that was the consequence of Orrples short-sighted act of mercy and i sincerely hope that Karma's various leaders do not make the same mistake.

From what I have heard, Legion and ODN agreed to white peace with NPO (save Moldavi's little speech) simply because they could not win the war. They had stated that their aim was to destroy NPO and they would have done so if they could, but they simply could not. Therefore, there was no error on their part.

[HeinousOne]

usual? have i been accusing all and sundry of being sympathizers? i think i used the term only once. But thanks for your two cents

It is a quite often used term when trying to smear comment makers in an attempt to abstractly change their viewpoint or actually the appearance of what their viewpoint is.

There, have another two cents and thank you for admitting quietly that you really have nothing to say to the rest. You big strong tough slayer of NPO that provides logistical support.

Cut their freakin heads off!

[Francesca]

Ok, since I'm slow, could you kindly show me abovesaid subjective maths? Since it's objective and all, it should be self evident upon completion.

I'm sure if you talk to NPO's IOs they would be happy to direct you to their calculations. As it stands, it would take NPO about nine months to pay everything off, if they succeeded in doing so.

To be honest I can't be bothered responding to the rest of your post. Perhaps if your style was less aggressive I might reconsider.

[Cataduanes]

From what I have heard, Legion and ODN agreed to white peace with NPO (save Moldavi's little speech) simply because they could not win the war. They had stated that their aim was to destroy NPO and they would have done so if they could, but they simply could not. Therefore, there was no error on their part.

Not quite how i remember it, i remember the ODN govt at the time deciding to pull out because they did not want to support LUE/etc anymore than they had to, nothing to do with the actual fighting....and it was an error because Orrple was already in opposition to the Order and it got its payback in GW3...not that i am saying GW1 could have been won outright had Orrple stayed in the fold but things might have been a wee bit different had Orrple remain committed.

It is a quite often used term when trying to smear comment makers in an attempt to abstractly change their viewpoint or actually the appearance of what their viewpoint is.

There, have another two cents and thank you for admitting quietly that you really have nothing to say to the rest. You big strong tough slayer of NPO that provides logistical support.

Cut their freakin heads off!

quite often used by others not me, but thanks for the appreciation nevertheless

Edited July 9, 2009 by Cataduanes

[HeinousOne]

Not quite how i remember it, i remember the ODN govt at the time deciding to pull out because they did not want to support LUE/etc anymore than they had to, nothing to do with the actual fighting....and it was an error because Orrple was already in opposition to the Order and it got its payback in GW3...not that i am saying GW1 could have been won outright had Orrple stayed in the fold but things might have been a wee bit different had Orrple remain committed.

quite often used by others not me, but thanks for the appreciation nevertheless

Oh come on now, provide some logistical support and point out whom these sympathizers are that you said were in this thread. Be a man who stands by his words and doesn't backpedal at the first questioning of such words.

I will directly ask this then, do you consider me an NPO sympathizer simply because I find one single term in the original terms to be horrendous and should not be kept in the terms due to the precedent it shall make for future wars?

[SonOfHoward]

This thread has served its purpose here, really. It's deteriorated in post quality, all the arguments have already been presented. I'm going to cease to post in it.

I think I just helped it deteriorate that much more but whatever. You started it.

[VIdiot the Great]

I'm sure if you talk to NPO's IOs they would be happy to direct you to their calculations. As it stands, it would take NPO about nine months to pay everything off, if they succeeded in doing so.

9 months is 2 months less than GATO's terms. So apparently the maths aren't quite as self evident as I thought.

To be honest I can't be bothered responding to the rest of your post. Perhaps if your style was less aggressive I might reconsider.

Perhaps if you had a leg to stand on you could do so. And just because your steel is sheathed in silk doesn't make it any less aggressive than the steel that I brandish openly.

To each their own I suppose.

Good luck in your mission.

VI

[potato]

Oh come on now, provide some logistical support and point out whom these sympathizers are that you said were in this thread. Be a man who stands by his words and doesn't backpedal at the first questioning of such words.

I will directly ask this then, do you consider me an NPO sympathizer simply because I find one single term in the original terms to be horrendous and should not be kept in the terms due to the precedent it shall make for future wars?

Did you really ... ? To Cataduanes? ...