I have a dream.

[HeinousOne]

All the 'blah blah blah' is you conceding the point that there's no objective scale. As to your question, it seems to presume that I support the terms given to the NPO. I have not stated one way or the other whether I do or not. Nor will I at this time.

But I'll play along.

Fortunately, the situation is not as hypothetical as you may think. During the NoV war, FS was faced by overwhelming odds. Certain nations were in peace mode in order to rebuild, and of course we took abuse for that. Anyway, it would piss me off no end if those were the terms offered to ME. Note I said 'me' because it's a subjective call. If I was a nation requested to do so? Yeah, I'd ask, but I'd do it.

I do happen to be a co-Triumvir of FACE, but I think I can sit in someone else's shoes. If it were my alliance asking me to come out of peace mode, I'd do it, at great risk to my citizens, to be sure, but solid in the knowledge that I was fighting beside my friends [OOC - since they're imaginary citizens, this is not a tough call for me] and hope peace could be worked out. But that's what I'd do, and typically, I don't have the concern about attempting to remain a world power after the war, as I'm certainly not part of an alliance that was a world power before the war. In short, each alliance has to decide for themselves what is 'harsh,' 'too harsh,' or 'reasonable' based upon their goals and desires. As I mentioned, there is no objective scale because no two alliances have exactly the same set of concerns, desires, goals, personnel, etc.

VI

The blah blah blah part was me conceding that I had no idea what the hell you were talking about. Congratulations in going over my head.

As to the rest, I congratulate you on your willingness to bleed for your alliance unnecessarily but that doesnt change the fact that such is unnecessary.

[Drostan]

I can agree with the above,

I fought hard for 7 days, then there were no more targets... They were either out of my range, in PM, or had full war slots... Those fighting currently are the lower level nations, some very new to CN, Planet Bob, and her politics.

I can say that I don't give a damn about the reps, and I don't want a single dirty Dong or Tech from NPO. (yes I said "dirty Dong").

I don't think that the terms offered, what seems like ages ago, are un-livable. Hell, almost half of my own CN life has been rebuilding after paying reps... The "livable" and "reasonable" terms are different with anyone you talk to. Someone is going to complain until their blue in the face regardless. You can't please everyone all the time. You can please some people some of the time. I also think the longer this debate continues, the longer NPO dwindles on seeking peace, the harder it will be for them to pay any sort of reps.

I generally like your posts but I completely disagree about waiting making it harder on NPO. So long as they continue to hide most of their current strength in peace mode, NPO loses very little by remaining at war. Vladimir himself has stated this as one of the primary reasons for rejecting the original terms. Thus, as I said in my summary post a while ago that nobody even comment on, NPO is waiting it out for Karma to start to disintegrate or certainly weaken. The reps are far less important for reasons that have been discussed many times. NPO is counting on the fact that the stupid people of Planet Bob will be too busy fighting over the spoils to ensure that Pacifica is brought to an appropriate justice, and my concern is that people will make that all too easy.

NPO will lose some more nations perhaps but most of those that are going to go are probably already gone. Now we have a hard solid core of Pacificans untouched in peace mode and they are prepared to wait as they have everything to gain by it. So long as Polaris and others apply pressure from the sidelines, Karma's NPO front's ability to stick to its guns will erode, and it won't be long before we see people fleeing the cause. If that happens it will be a disaster. Those sorts of things tend to snowball.

Frost Bite's opinion is anything but unbiased as since they are not directly involved they are the ones who will most benefit from pitting the two sides against each other. At the beginning it made more sense to go with the revolutionary flow against Pacifica but now that they are weak it's best to focus on comparing Karma alliances to Pacifica because they are the ones who are strong right now. I didn't see much outcry when the terms were first proposed to the NPO and yet now I guess everyone's been holding in these thoughts for weeks eh? I don't want this to turn into another argument about Frost Bite though, as resolving the conflict with NPO takes all the wind out of their sails. I appreciate the comments I have seen from STA members as in general they seem well-considered and unbiased. I do not feel I can extend that to the whole of Frost Bite, but who could you extend that to? heh.

EDIT:

He's not Frostbite nor is he STA for that matter. He's a member of each but in no way is he the sum total representative of their thoughts and views. He's an individual giving his individual views. The entire "well, one of your members said X so, of course, your whole alliance/bloc must feel the same way," line of thought is one that needs to die already.

Yeah, that's fair, except that it's reasonable to ask someone their opinion of it even if they don't represent the alliance or bloc in total. Also, it's not like the original question was based entitely on one ordinary member's opinion but perhaps the 60 page monster announcement made by Almight Grub that included no shortage of insults and accusations.

I agree that inferring too much from a single member happens too often and is dumb, but I don't think that's entirely what he was doing.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Drostan

[Trinite]

I just don't see how the two-weeks of war term is that terrible. Many nations have been at for over two months, but making those with the most potential to rebuild fight is destroying an alliance? I just don't see it. I see the two week war term as basically a lot of reps that nobody gets. Everything destroyed in a war is rebuildable it'll just cost a lot of cash. NPO banks sitting on a couple billion can't dish that cash out in any reasonable amount of time, but they can have to rebuy a couple thousand infra pretty quickly. It's basically, reps + rebuilding cost from 2 weeks of war for nations in PM + tech destroyed = actual reps. And yes, they are really high. Too high in my opinion, but not impossible, and it sure as hell wouldn't destroy the alliance.

I understand they fear that they might miss a payment, and they would get redeclared on. I don't think it's a valid fear so long as they try, but I think some sort of protection could get written into the terms for that. A lack of good faith requirement for reDoW or a neutral party to decide punishment for failure of terms.

The fact is that NPO has the third most members, and billions of dollars in their banks. If someone can give me a better way to drain those banks a bit outside of war, I'd like hear it. The no treaty thing I think is an empty term. We can't stop them from talking to other alliances, and as soon as the term was up, they would have all the treaties they would have had during that time signed immediately. If it did work, stopping an alliance from making outside relationships is a greater intrusion than a couple weeks of war. Maybe that's just a matter of opinion though.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Trinite

[Drostan]

That isnt backing down to NPO, that is keeping them from making you back down.

It's funny because the more you read that quote the more it seems like it is precisely backing down. I don't even disagree with the sentiment, but lots in Karma will view this stance as nothing other than giving power back to the NPO even though they're totally totally beat right now.

[Owned-You]

I know this has already been answered, but this is the kind of thing that needs to be said.

He's not Frostbite nor is he STA for that matter. He's a member of each but in no way is he the sum total representative of their thoughts and views. He's an individual giving his individual views. The entire "well, one of your members said X so, of course, your whole alliance/bloc must feel the same way," line of thought is one that needs to die already.

Quoting it because it illustrated my feelings being in a position much like HeinousOne. It comes off as being paranoid and grasping at straws when none exist. If Frostbite had an agenda I'm quite sure there would be an official statement issued from Frostbite concerning the stance we wish to take. However, as evident by the lack of the aforementioned statement were not concerned by Karma's peace process. But when you take a widely known global conflict and plaster a plethora of topics concerning said war; chances are members of alliances around the world will have there opinions on the matter. Thus, I can personally say I find it distasteful and slightly insulting that the opinons of my alliance and others and Frostbite are attempted to be construed as hostile when in reality they are only observent and intent to spur community disscussion to improve Planet Bob as a whole.

Everyone simply needs to relax and realize what seperates friend from foe as that line has been blured in the haze of propaganda.

[OneBallMan]

Well, let's not go crazy here. They still need to worry about you. They'd be fools not to.

I will say that there is a lot of shortsightedness within the factions that make up Karma - one can only hope that the sides are preparing equally well for the obvious. The sooner this war officially ends (it's been over de facto since about day 5), the better prepared those who are fighting it are going to be for the one that is plainly evident to follow.

Listen to this man. He makes sense. Frankly, I could care less about your surrender terms. We are in a position, with the bulk of our nations in hippie to simply sit, wait, and be ready for that next round of conflict. Heck, I'd be pretty pissed to be a SF these days, carrying Karma's water, staying on war footing while the Citadel and the Harmlins et al mostly just sit and rebuild, ready to stomp your butts once the noise dies down. If I had a prediction for posterity, I'd say that you'll come running for white peace to us on that day...

[HeinousOne]

I generally like your posts but I completely disagree about waiting making it harder on NPO. So long as they continue to hide most of their current strength in peace mode, NPO loses very little by remaining at war. Vladimir himself has stated this as one of the primary reasons for rejecting the original terms. Thus, as I said in my summary post a while ago that nobody even comment on, NPO is waiting it out for Karma to start to disintegrate or certainly weaken. The reps are far less important for reasons that have been discussed many times. NPO is counting on the fact that the stupid people of Planet Bob will be too busy fighting over the spoils to ensure that Pacifica is brought to an appropriate justice, and my concern is that people will make that all too easy.

NPO will lose some more nations perhaps but most of those that are going to go are probably already gone. Now we have a hard solid core of Pacificans untouched in peace mode and they are prepared to wait as they have everything to gain by it. So long as Polaris and others apply pressure from the sidelines, Karma's NPO front's ability to stick to its guns will erode, and it won't be long before we see people fleeing the cause. If that happens it will be a disaster. Those sorts of things tend to snowball.

Frost Bite's opinion is anything but unbiased as since they are not directly involved they are the ones who will most benefit from pitting the two sides against each other. At the beginning it made more sense to go with the revolutionary flow against Pacifica but now that they are weak it's best to focus on comparing Karma alliances to Pacifica because they are the ones who are strong right now. I didn't see much outcry when the terms were first proposed to the NPO and yet now I guess everyone's been holding in these thoughts for weeks eh? I don't want this to turn into another argument about Frost Bite though, as resolving the conflict with NPO takes all the wind out of their sails. I appreciate the comments I have seen from STA members as in general they seem well-considered and unbiased. I do not feel I can extend that to the whole of Frost Bite, but who could you extend that to? heh.

Man, I was totally with you in the first paragraph. I was like "hell yeah, i am finally agreeing with someone from Sparta". Then the second and third paragraphs happened. That is one hell of a conspiracy theory sir.

You know, you cannot make such a statement about Frostbite and not expect a response. That is exactly what you wish to turn this into. I appreciate your kind comments about STA but your comments about the others I wholeheartedly disagree with. The fact that so many NPO posters were making so many nice comments to Grub in his thread should show you that there was no conspiracy between the two alliances in all this. Those NPO posters were honestly surprised to see such from him. That would mean he is simply stating his beliefs without any underlying purpose of weakening Karma.

That will happen on it's own as the war drags out and the NPO doesn't have to rely on anyone else helping it with such. That is why I agreed absolutely with your first paragraph. That is exactly what they are doing as they know their internal cohesion will last longer then the external cohesion between seperate alliances in Karma. That may be weeks, that may be months, that may be over a year. NPO will be able to outlast you in peace mode, hence why you have to throw new options in terms at them. If they deny those too then you will have succeeded in showing this aspect of them and the world will completely turn on them, including myself. You do not show that though with only having offered one set of terms that they have denied and I cannot say I blame them for denying those terms due to that one term as they stated.

[Drostan]

Listen to this man. He makes sense. Frankly, I could care less about your surrender terms. We are in a position, with the bulk of our nations in hippie to simply sit, wait, and be ready for that next round of conflict. Heck, I'd be pretty pissed to be a SF these days, carrying Karma's water, staying on war footing while the Citadel and the Harmlins et al mostly just sit and rebuild, ready to stomp your butts once the noise dies down. If I had a prediction for posterity, I'd say that you'll come running for white peace to us on that day...

That's what I've been saying in here...

If Frostbite had an agenda I'm quite sure there would be an official statement issued from Frostbite concerning the stance we wish to take.

I know it's not entirely the same, but that official Polar announcement from Grub ended up taking a direction pretty damned similar to this.

EDIT: I don't propose a conspiracy, I propose seeing an opportunity to gain power and members and taking it. Surely Grub is aware of the NPO strategy and knows that by posting his decree he only weakened Karma's position. You can say that is incidental but I am saying that is how it is playing out and it's definitely beneficial to FrostBite and as that kind TPF fellow said bad for people like SF.

I am not saying that NPO and Frost Bite are plotting together, but rather than Frost Bite easily recognized NPO's tactic like many of us have, and have turned it to their advantage while those still engaged cannot. And certainly, there were no shortage of conspiracy theories expounded by Almighty Grub himself so I'll ask forgiveness if mine is construed as such.

[ooc]I will be gone for a bit but will respond more when I return[/ooc]

Edited July 9, 2009 by Drostan

[VIdiot the Great]

The blah blah blah part was me conceding that I had no idea what the hell you were talking about. Congratulations in going over my head.

As to the rest, I congratulate you on your willingness to bleed for your alliance unnecessarily but that doesnt change the fact that such is unnecessary.

'Unnecessary' is completely dependent upon the goals of the alliance and its individual member nations. There can be many reasons why fighting beside your alliance mates could be considered necessary, and reasons why it may not be.

I would hazard a guess that we can agree that it would be the call of the individual member as to whether something was necessary or unnecessary.

VI

[Vol Navy]

What many aren't taking into account who say the terms aren't that bad is that this is far and away the most damaging war in the history of CN. I'm sure we will still have reps to pay but I've personally used up close to 1 billion dollars and lost 4000 tech, not to mention over 13000 infra and 10,000 miles of land.

Losses like that are common across the NPO front as well. This isn't an alliance that faced 2-3 weeks of war and got terms offered. It's an alliance that is working on it's 3rd month of war that didn't get offered terms until a good portion of the alliance was at ZI or close to it. Then the terms they did get offered require them to face additional weeks of war with their only nations capable of paying the reps that would allow them to avoid getting declared upon again. Really penalizing them because some of the alliances fighting them were incapable of a staggar or were unwilling to take on nuke armed nations.

They've lost more infra, tech, money, and land than any alliance in the history of CN. Then they are expected to give up even more of that through additional war to get peace. Then to have to ship out everything else they have left in the form of reps. They lost control of the Red sphere. They lost their power base, most of their allies and were stomped in war.

I haven't saw every term either but I'll be surprised if they are allowed to sign military treaties while paying the reps anyway. That will take close to a year itself. So I doubt those on the NPO front will see that as a viable option. They seem to feel the only way they can get revenge or feel safe after their betrayal is to try and force Pacifica to fight eternal war in their weakend state or for Pacifica to disband altogether.

To be honest I think many underestimted Pacifica's resolve and thought they'd quit/disband when faced with such overwhelming odds. Now they are in a stalemate where they no longer really have the ability to do further damage to NPO but their lower ranks can't grow because they are having to face Pacifican nukes.

Before long the lower ranks of those on the Pacifica front will get tired of getting wiped out by nukes while the people at the top of the alliance grow in relative peace.

That's on top of another war looming, which I'd personally it hilarious if those on the NPO front were attacked by their enemies. They'd be in quite a mess if that happened and really, what better time to do it than while they are occupied with trying to enforce eternal war on a throughly defeated and nearly destroyed alliance.

So it really looks like NPO has more to gain by turning down the terms as written than by accepting them. The alliances arrayed against NPO have more to lose by trying to keep eternal war going against them while their enemies grow stronger on the sidelines.

[HeinousOne]

I just don't see how the two-weeks of war term is that terrible. Many nations have been at for over two months, but making those with the most potential to rebuild fight is destroying an alliance? I just don't see it. I see the two week war term as basically a lot of reps that nobody gets. Everything destroyed in a war is rebuildable it'll just cost a lot of cash. NPO banks sitting on a couple billion can't dish that cash out in any reasonable amount of time, but they can have to rebuy a couple thousand infra pretty quickly. It's basically, reps + rebuilding cost from 2 weeks of war for nations in PM + tech destroyed = actual reps. And yes, they are really high. Too high in my opinion, but not impossible, and it sure as hell wouldn't destroy the alliance.

I understand they fear that they might miss a payment, and they would get redeclared on. I don't think it's a valid fear so long as they try, but I think some sort of protection could get written into the terms for that. A lack of good faith requirement for reDoW or a neutral party to decide punishment for failure of terms.

The fact is that NPO has the third most members, and billions of dollars in their banks. If someone can give me a better way to drain those banks a bit outside of war, I'd like hear it. The no treaty thing I think is an empty term. We can't stop them from talking to other alliances, and as soon as the term was up, they would have all the treaties they would have had during that time signed immediately. If it did work, stopping an alliance from making outside relationships is a greater intrusion than a couple weeks of war. Maybe that's just a matter of opinion though.

So what, they sign treaties in a year. That is a whole year that the world has to rebuild and realign. So what if they sign treaties in a year, they are part of this world they do have that right. It is just that they will be agreeing to suspend that right for a year in order to bring peace.

I disagree that it is a greater intrusion. The couple weeks war is about destroying their nations that are in peace mode to help rebuild the alliance. You cant begrudge them wanting to rebuild after losing as much as they have. Everyone would want to do that. What you are doing is saying that NPO's control of the diplomatic web that held the world in check is what was their greatest crime. So directly related to that you keep them from tapping into that diplomatic web for a year. What they do after that is up to them because holding someone down indefinately is just wrong.

If they want to keep some nations in peace mode through the war to rebuild that is their own internal and sovereign decision. Forcing them to make a decision against that is far more of an intrusion.

It's funny because the more you read that quote the more it seems like it is precisely backing down. I don't even disagree with the sentiment, but lots in Karma will view this stance as nothing other than giving power back to the NPO even though they're totally totally beat right now.

I find it funny that you think negotiators continuing to negotiate is what you consider "backing down". That is what I would consider "them doing their damn job". Perhaps that is just me though.

[Drostan]

I thought that the lower ranks would get exhausted with being sacrificed for the peace moders too. But it didn't happen. I mean it did, but those likely to give up and quit now have already done so. NPO is dug in deep I agree. Whether those on the sidelines are our enemies I am not sure but certainly they are benefitting whilst we are not.

EDIT:

@Heinous: your quote said that it was not backing down from the NPO, but rather backing away from NPO making you back down... or something very similar. I am saying that that is exactly the position most Karma alliances never wanted to be in. It's not the same as just negotiating because NPO did not negotiate, they rejected the terms outright, and waited for others to put pressure on for them. Not because of a conspiracy but because of the fragile nature of Karma. Anyway, in case you missed it, I am saying some will find this a very bitter pill to swallow. But nevertheless, I think it must be.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Drostan

[HeinousOne]

I thought that the lower ranks would get exhausted with being sacrificed for the peace moders too. But it didn't happen. I mean it did, but those likely to give up and quit now have already done so. NPO is dug in deep I agree. Whether those on the sidelines are our enemies I am not sure but certainly they are benefitting whilst we are not.

EDIT:

@Heinous: your quote said that it was not backing down from the NPO, but rather backing away from NPO making you back down... or something very similar. I am saying that that is exactly the position most Karma alliances never wanted to be in. It's not the same as just negotiating because NPO did not negotiate, they rejected the terms outright, and waited for others to put pressure on for them. Not because of a conspiracy but because of the fragile nature of Karma. Anyway, in case you missed it, I am saying some will find this a very bitter pill to swallow. But nevertheless, I think it must be.

So find a way to end the damn war. When that happens you will find that all these made up lines between the rest of us will disappear. That is because it isnt about us taking advantage of you, it is simply about us stating our opinions on how things are going. That is what the OWF is about. Would you have it like the old days where speaking your mind here was frowned upon?

Also, sorry you are incorrect. The NPO offered to pay a whole lot more reps to replace that one single term that they said was unacceptable. Your version of what happened and what is happening due to that is all incorrect because of that one false interpretation. What that means is that they were negotiating. We haven't publically seen a response to such so it is in essence Karma that has stopped the negotiations as far as the public knows.

I am finding it rather frustrating that within single posts of yours I go from agreeing with you, to disagreeing and back to agreeing. You really should just agree to agree with what I am saying. Honestly, it makes sense.

Edited July 9, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Drostan]

So find a way to end the damn war. When that happens you will find that all these made up lines between the rest of us will disappear. That is because it isnt about us taking advantage of you, it is simply about us stating our opinions on how things are going. That is what the OWF is about. Would you have it like the old days where speaking your mind here was frowned upon?

Come now, Grub went beyond that, he accused Sparta of orchestrating the entire war... which is many times more ridiculous than what I am proposing.

I hope the war does end because the political landscape will be far more interesting once Karma does cease to be. I favour nothing that hampers discussion which is by times why I am so doggedly verbose. What I lack in eloquence I strive to make up for in tenacity.

[ooc] seriously, lunch now[/ooc]

[Gn0xious Jr]

NPO is waiting it out for Karma to start to disintegrate or certainly weaken. The reps are far less important for reasons that have been discussed many times. NPO is counting on the fact that the stupid people of Planet Bob will be too busy fighting over the spoils to ensure that Pacifica is brought to an appropriate justice, and my concern is that people will make that all too easy.

I by no means am under the impression that the NPO are helpless and completely beaten as it stands right now. Just pointing out that loss of membership, continued damage to lower nations (and aid being sent to said nations) will have an effect on their ability to pay reps quickly and rebuild. The more their nations are whittled down to ZI, the more it will cost to rebuild them later on (albeit building up to 5K infra isn't very costly). I can see your point that it won't cost them nearly as much as warring on those that have been in peace mode since the start would be. I agree that we need to stay focused.

I liked the idea of isolating them diplomatically, keeping them from signing new military treaties, etc. for a given time. But I'd like to see more to it, (decom military wonders), decom nukes, etc, in order to make sure they remain in-check for the duration of terms.

If the NPO is focused on "waiting it out" and staying in Peace Mode, then they need to quit whining about the terms, and rely on hope that we'll simply let them go.

[HeinousOne]

Come now, Grub went beyond that, he accused Sparta of orchestrating the entire war... which is many times more ridiculous than what I am proposing.

I hope the war does end because the political landscape will be far more interesting once Karma does cease to be. I favour nothing that hampers discussion which is by times why I am so doggedly verbose. What I lack in eloquence I strive to make up for in tenacity.

[ooc] seriously, lunch now[/ooc]

Well, I am not sure he went that far, I think he might have thought you were in on it for quite awhile but orchestrating the whole thing?

You are right though that the world is going to be a fun place again once this damnable war finally ends. That is why the negotiators need to do their job and negotiate an end. The damage now being done to NPO is very minimal and they will be able to withstand it. The war is already over, its just about leaders agreeing on that and coming to terms to end it. Right now is the time to get optimal terms, should this stalemate drag out then NPO actually begins to strengthen their position at the negotiating table because the tenable coalition of alliances that you spoke of is certainly not going to become stronger over time.

The NPO knows this. Remember the war against the LUE coalition? Stop wasting time and get to work negotiators.

[Owned-You]

I know it's not entirely the same, but that official Polar announcement from Grub ended up taking a direction pretty damned similar to this.

EDIT: I don't propose a conspiracy, I propose seeing an opportunity to gain power and members and taking it. Surely Grub is aware of the NPO strategy and knows that by posting his decree he only weakened Karma's position. You can say that is incidental but I am saying that is how it is playing out and it's definitely beneficial to FrostBite and as that kind TPF fellow said bad for people like SF.

I am not saying that NPO and Frost Bite are plotting together, but rather than Frost Bite easily recognized NPO's tactic like many of us have, and have turned it to their advantage while those still engaged cannot. And certainly, there were no shortage of conspiracy theories expounded by Almighty Grub himself so I'll ask forgiveness if mine is construed as such.

[ooc]I will be gone for a bit but will respond more when I return[/ooc]

Based upon what you said above, you've done exactly what I said many are doing. Grasping at straws, and proposing conspiracy theories based on no real basis other then perceived motives on our end. To a degree I can understand how you can construe it as undermining Karma in a power-play...it's human nature to be pessimistic. But it's also easy to fabricate conspiracies in thin air...For instance, one could argue that Sparta and other former Hegemonic powers abandoned Pacifica prior to the Karma War due to the rumors and preparation for the said war. Seeing an opportunity to improve world standing and stand amongst the victors as opposed to the defeated, and in turn save pixels...But I'm quite sure that isn't what happened and the former Hegemonic powers did not abandon Pacifica for Pixels but rather a slow but steady decline in relations and a conflict in morals which lead to the split. My point being, nearly any large relevent political issue can be spun in a million directions. I personally would prefer if matters regarding my alliance and allies were not spun in an attempt to either defame our image our accuse us as opportunists thus why I've posted my opinons regarding that much like my comrades and Emperor have posted there opinons on the Karma War.

[Vladimir]

NPO did not negotiate, they rejected the terms outright

I have seen you and others assert this a few times now, but it is incorrect. We negotiated until Karma told us that they would not consider negotiating any further (not that anything had moved very far by that point). We then sought absolute clarification that they were cutting off all negotiations on all terms, which they confirmed, and it was only then that we went public -- since Karma were refusing to negotiate, and since the standing terms were unacceptable to us, we had nothing to lose from placing them in the sunlight.

[janax]

Listen to this man. He makes sense. Frankly, I could care less about your surrender terms. We are in a position, with the bulk of our nations in hippie to simply sit, wait, and be ready for that next round of conflict. Heck, I'd be pretty pissed to be a SF these days, carrying Karma's water, staying on war footing while the Citadel and the Harmlins et al mostly just sit and rebuild, ready to stomp your butts once the noise dies down. If I had a prediction for posterity, I'd say that you'll come running for white peace to us on that day...

I predict that if you are waiting for Citadel to attack Superfriends, you may be in for being peace-moders for much longer than FAN. Leave the trying to turn comrades/allies/friends/wartime companions/whatevers aganst each other for those that are better at it.

[OneBallMan]

I predict that if you are waiting for Citadel to attack Superfriends, you may be in for being peace-moders for much longer than FAN. Leave the trying to turn comrades/allies/friends/wartime companions/whatevers aganst each other for those that are better at it.

Yes, you are so right. I am totally wrong. Because if it is one thing that recent history has shown, it is the alliances stay lovers with each other eternally. No one ever leaves major blocs and certainly no one ever, ever, ever, sees an opportunity to hit a weakened foe.

/Keep saying that you all love each other. That might make it true. That and tapping your heels together three times.

[Drostan]

I predict that if you are waiting for Citadel to attack Superfriends, you may be in for being peace-moders for much longer than FAN. Leave the trying to turn comrades/allies/friends/wartime companions/whatevers aganst each other for those that are better at it.

Haha, completely agree. I wanted to make sure that my agreement was rather that certain parties who have remained distant from this conflict are being an opportunity to grow and that some of them have demonstrated a certain degree of hostility.

I would never expect SF and Citadel to come to blows. That would be as big a shock as Planet Bob could furnish. Rather, I can see people not being thrilled about remaining at war with NPO's anklebiters forever and that weakening their resolve.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Drostan

[OneBallMan]

Haha, completely agree. I wanted to make sure that my agreement was rather that certain parties who have remained distant from this conflict are being an opportunity to grow and that some of them have demonstrated a certain degree of hostility.

I would never expect SF and Citadel to come to blows. That would be as big a shock as Planet Bob could furnish. Rather, I can see people not being thrilled about remaining at war with NPO's anklebiters forever and that weakening their resolve.

Oh oh oh!!! Can I put dibs on playing Sponge or Doitzel in the Musical Version? You know, the wise old character guy who tells you exactly what is going to happen in the end, but pride and hubris get in the way of anyone listening? I'll settle for Starfox, but that's as far down the playbill as I will go.

You can play Gabriella. You've certainly got the chops for that.

[HellAngel]

Yes, you are so right. I am totally wrong. Because if it is one thing that recent history has shown, it is the alliances stay lovers with each other eternally. No one ever leaves major blocs and certainly no one ever, ever, ever, sees an opportunity to hit a weakened foe.

/Keep saying that you all love each other. That might make it true. That and tapping your heels together three times.

May i ask what actual facts you based your assumption on?

I mean, im not saying we will be all happy with each other eternally, but just trying to make a stab in the dark about who will attack whom is just a pointless attempt to turn the political landscape to your favour.

[Drostan]

Oh oh oh!!! Can I put dibs on playing Sponge or Doitzel in the Musical Version? You know, the wise old character guy who tells you exactly what is going to happen in the end, but pride and hubris get in the way of anyone listening? I'll settle for Starfox, but that's as far down the playbill as I will go.

You can play Gabriella. You've certainly got the chops for that.

Believe it or not, even Sponge doesn't have a crystal ball.

[HeinousOne]

May i ask what actual facts you based your assumption on?

I mean, im not saying we will be all happy with each other eternally, but just trying to make a stab in the dark about who will attack whom is just a pointless attempt to turn the political landscape to your favour.

I would agree, I know it annoys frostbite members such as myself when folks try to portray us as setting up for some future conflict.