I have a dream.

[Vladimir]

None of what you said relates in any way to what you were quoting. Unless you're suggesting that Tyga's signature is an accurate portrayal of opinion ranging from Shahenshah, to Francesca, to Electron Sponge?

Edited July 11, 2009 by Vladimir

[HeinousOne]

HeinousOne, you're the broken record here. Every time I see you post, I have to remind myself not to hold it against your alliance. You and everyone else who thinks that two weeks of warfare is beyond the pale, where were you when the NPO ordered GATO nations out of peace mode? Did you spend weeks arguing about the injustice of it all? I'm sure you must have. Would you mind linking me to your posts?

And while you're at it, could you also link me to your posts where you spent weeks on end arguing that the NPO shouldn't perma-war FAN? Or destroy that war-mongering alliance the GPA? Or impose a Viceroy on the Legion? Because someone such as yourself, who is so keenly sensitive to injustice, must surely have a long history of protesting injustice no matter by whom it was committed.

Go ahead, I have already begun to hold some of your outlandish statements and now threats that if I do not shut up that you will hold it against my alliance, against your alliance.

So there, I threaten you for threatening me. Quite a nice No U for a no u.

How bout I link you to posts where I say that the horrid acts of what the NPO has done in the past should not be precedents for your own actions. How about that?

Edited July 11, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Azhrarn]

Go ahead, I have already begun to hold some of your outlandish statements and now threats that if I do not shut up that you will hold it against my alliance, against your alliance.

So there, I threaten you for threatening me. Quite a nice No U for a no u.

Your posting is so bad, the last thing I would want to do is make you stop. As they say, with friends like you, the NPO doesn't need enemies.

I wasn't threatening you or the STA. I happen to like the STA. But since you have problems with reading comprehension, let me help you. You speak poorly. You can't reason. And your remarks are shot through with bias. Hence, when I read your remarks I have to remind myself that the STA does have people who speak and reason well, and are capable of objective thought - people like Tyga, for instance.

How bout I link you to posts where I say that the horrid acts of what the NPO has done in the past should not be precedents for your own actions. How about that?

Yes, because after I've just called you out for displaying clear bias and hypocrisy, obviously what I want next are yet further examples of your personal opinions unsubstantiated by logic, fairness or historical facts.

[HeinousOne]

Your posting is so bad, the last thing I would want to do is make you stop. As they say, with friends like you, the NPO doesn't need enemies.

I wasn't threatening you or the STA. I happen to like the STA. But since you have problems with reading comprehension, let me help you. You speak poorly. You can't reason. And your remarks are shot through with bias. Hence, when I read your remarks I have to remind myself that the STA does have people who speak and reason well, and are capable of objective thought - people like Tyga, for instance.

Yes, because after I've just called you out for displaying clear bias and hypocrisy, obviously what I want next are yet further examples of your personal opinions unsubstantiated by logic, fairness or historical facts.

What you are saying is that anyone that agrees with you, such as Tyga, speaks with reason and anyone who completely disagrees is speaking out their $@!?

Also what clear bias and hypocrisy do I speak with? My bias is my NPO love? Seriously? Is that actually what you are saying? What hypocrisy do I speak from? You mean me standing up and saying how Horrible the things NPO have done in the past are and then turning around and using those as reasons to do horrible things myself? Yes, I am a clear example of bias and hypocrisy and you are obviously a paragon that displays neither.

Edited July 11, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Tygaland]

None of what you said relates in any way to what you were quoting. Unless you're suggesting that Tyga's signature is an accurate portrayal of opinion ranging from Shahenshah, to Francesca, to Electron Sponge?

The comment in my signature highlights a number of the assumptions that underpin the anti-Karma propaganda as well as exposing a glaring double-standard they choose to pretend does not exist.

They being that any leniency will be breaking a cycle when it is more likely that any leniency will be merely harshness skipping a generation. That giving the NPO lighter terms will change the NPO's attitude towards revenge and "re-Ordering" the Cyberverse. As well as the assumption that the the NPO cannot rebuild to any position of power even with moderate to light terms.

As for the double-standard highlighted by my comment, it is fairly self-explanatory.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Tygaland

[potato]

Indeed! No wonder there are several simultaneous threads with 100s (1000s?) of replies concerned with what noobs have to whine about and pros showing them the way. Another positive change brought upon in this new era.

Because, clearly, PR is mesured by the number of threads started ...

[shahenshah]

Because, clearly, PR is mesured by the number of threads started ...

Like I said in the last post, we have no disagreement at all

[Rush Sykes]

Out of curiosity, how long do you have to keep attacking someone for it to be Perma-ZI? A month? Two? Three? Six? At what point is your continued warfare de facto Perma-ZI?

Well , at the very least, not until ZI is reached, can it even be remotely considered PZI

[Vol Navy]

Many in TPF are in a state of perma-ZI at this point. I started the war with 11,700 infra but I've lost close to 14,000 due to rebuying, and then losing what I've rebought. I am currently at 2 infra, I last left PM July 1st. with 1169. I am back in PM now and will rebuy once I recover some money, I will repeat the process again if the war is still going. I know that I will face PZI from Karma for who knows how long at this point. I am actually one of the lucky ones. Many of us who don't get failed staggars have been held in bill lock/ZI for weeks on end. I'm sure many in NPO, Avalon, and 64 digits are also in similar states of PZI at this point.

Really, has any nuclear from day 1 conflict lasted 3 months and featured the ability to get nuked daily when you are under 15k NS? I don't think they have. This is simply the most damaging war in CN history due to it's length, high tech, the destructive wonders and the hot nukes from the 25th hour.

Many stuck by what they were saying Karma's goal was, the ending of being afraid to speak out or go to war due to crippling reps/terms.

Yet as the conflict has came down to former Hegemony alliances setting terms it is has also produced the highest reps in CN history and many of the old terms like perma-banning people from Govt. Along with classics like people being told to shut up, quit whining, do something about it, quit hiding in PM etc etc.

[kerschbs]

Yeah, no way NPO ever changes the way it is. A very clearly worded admission of defeat is something which I believe NPO would probably agree to at this point. I of course am not on speaking terms with any of them but I'm not sure how they could deny it at this point.

Yeah, I think they get it now. Here's the point where they are told, "Now you know what it feels like, next time you want to act like jerks how about you remember this moment and be sporting?"

I've been a victim of NPO's aggression, and their duplicitous dealings with others. I've lost quite a bit due to them, I dare say more than most people. Here I sit advocating a fair deal for them that they'd never have (and never did) offer me. I'm doing so because I'm a better human being than they are. I refuse to wallow in equality with scum such as them. Reciprocity means I'd be on their level and I'm not.

I'd like to think most of you are better than they are too. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Listen to this man.

[Francesca]

Yeah, no way NPO ever changes the way it is. A very clearly worded admission of defeat is something which I believe NPO would probably agree to at this point. I of course am not on speaking terms with any of them but I'm not sure how they could deny it at this point.

Yeah, I think they get it now. Here's the point where they are told, "Now you know what it feels like, next time you want to act like jerks how about you remember this moment and be sporting?"

I've been a victim of NPO's aggression, and their duplicitous dealings with others. I've lost quite a bit due to them, I dare say more than most people. Here I sit advocating a fair deal for them that they'd never have (and never did) offer me. I'm doing so because I'm a better human being than they are. I refuse to wallow in equality with scum such as them. Reciprocity means I'd be on their level and I'm not.

I'd like to think most of you are better than they are too. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I think NPO will be forced to change, if merely as a matter of policy, due to changed circumstances. They will no longer be able to continue acting as they have for the past two years.

[NoFish]

I think the second statement in my signature (the one after Tyga's Law) pretty much covers the entirity of the Anti-Karma/I'm-Better-Than-You crowd.

Have I ever mentioned that I love you? Not to be creepy or anything, but if you ever stumble across a way for a man to have another man's babies and want to test the technology... Well, you know, totally not using most of my organs for anything particularly important.

Edited July 11, 2009 by NoFish

[neneko]

It's really easy to watch others face tough decisions and say "I'd do it much better". We've seen that for quite a while now. Everyone on bob is an amazing beacon of light and stand for what's just and right. Fact is that we wouldn't see that if you had to actually make any tough decisions.

My belief is that morals seldom have any place at all in war. There's no room for them. When people stand up against a oppresive power it's not because of their morals it is because they were the ones subjected to the evil. That's why we don't see anyone act before the oppressed have. This is why the pr war about moral highground is ridicolous. Every moral outcry we see during the war have a second motive behind it and no leader would sacrifice the security of his alliance for his morals. Does that make him a bad leader? No, it makes him a good leader. Sacrificing his peoples safety for going on a moral crusade would be being a bad leader.

Bottom line is that any moral argument is moot during war. Does anyone actually think that it's a coincidence that both NPO think they are morally justified in whatever they do and the karma forces think they are morally justified in whatever they do? The whole argument is pointless because decisions in wars done by good leaders are not based on their personal morals.

So have karma abandoned their morals for petty revenge? No, moral were never a factor. It was always about petty revenge. If you do something mean to someone else they're going to want revenge. If someone think they have the chance to eliminate a threat against their alliance they're probably going to take it.

So what I'm saying is that any moral arguments or moral standpoints either side claims to hold is superficial wich makes this thread 27 pages of discussing gnomes and fairies.

[Azhrarn]

What you are saying is that anyone that agrees with you, such as Tyga, speaks with reason and anyone who completely disagrees is speaking out their $@!?

Also what clear bias and hypocrisy do I speak with? My bias is my NPO love? Seriously? Is that actually what you are saying? What hypocrisy do I speak from? You mean me standing up and saying how Horrible the things NPO have done in the past are and then turning around and using those as reasons to do horrible things myself? Yes, I am a clear example of bias and hypocrisy and you are obviously a paragon that displays neither.

Here's a crazy idea, why don't you try responding to my actual post instead of trying to put words into my mouth? Or could it be that you don't have a response? Should I take that as an admission of guilt then, that you never once protested any of the multitudes of injustices which the NPO committed, yet here you are screaming to the high heavens because one time - just once - the NPO finally gets a fraction of what it deserves?

And yes, I said a fraction. These terms, including the two weeks of warfare, are more than fair. Karma hasn't lowered itself to the NPO's level. It hasn't even come close. And there's nothing horrible about putting down an alliance that has ruined Planet Bob for so many other alliances and nation rulers.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Mixoux]

It's really easy to watch others face tough decisions and say "I'd do it much better". We've seen that for quite a while now. Everyone on bob is an amazing beacon of light and stand for what's just and right. Fact is that we wouldn't see that if you had to actually make any tough decisions.

My belief is that morals seldom have any place at all in war. There's no room for them. When people stand up against a oppresive power it's not because of their morals it is because they were the ones subjected to the evil. That's why we don't see anyone act before the oppressed have. This is why the pr war about moral highground is ridicolous. Every moral outcry we see during the war have a second motive behind it and no leader would sacrifice the security of his alliance for his morals. Does that make him a bad leader? No, it makes him a good leader. Sacrificing his peoples safety for going on a moral crusade would be being a bad leader.

Bottom line is that any moral argument is moot during war. Does anyone actually think that it's a coincidence that both NPO think they are morally justified in whatever they do and the karma forces think they are morally justified in whatever they do? The whole argument is pointless because decisions in wars done by good leaders are not based on their personal morals.

So have karma abandoned their morals for petty revenge? No, moral were never a factor. It was always about petty revenge. If you do something mean to someone else they're going to want revenge. If someone think they have the chance to eliminate a threat against their alliance they're probably going to take it.

So what I'm saying is that any moral arguments or moral standpoints either side claims to hold is superficial wich makes this thread 27 pages of discussing gnomes and fairies.

Thank you.

Not much to add to this, but my sentiments for the most part.

[Matthew Conrad]

NoFish: Let's see, there are people claiming that if Karma gives harsh terms just this last time it will end it forever. Moral and intellectual bankruptcy, check. Crass and disingenuous hypocrisy, check. You've got the "Well once they hit 0.00 EZI ends and if they don't well uhhhh..." Moral bankruptcy, check. Sparta forcing disbandment of another alliance. Hypocrisy, check. People claiming that the terms are payable because "my nation survived ZI and came out of it alright." Intellectual bankruptcy, check. I don't really see the point in going back through all 20+ pages to find exact quotes, but it's right there for anyone with some basic English literacy, which you seem to possess.

I like how you have included a statement that is not true. I believe I had asnwered that question when someone from TPF accused us of the same Also, unless you have some sort of proof, please indicate wherein I have become intellectually bankrupt. I haven't seen some popular line of Karma that indicates such. If you're going to throw random insults and accusations, please at least have something to back it up next time instead of foolishly grasping for straws.

[Matthew Conrad]

Actually, personally, I was fine with everything else in the previous terms except for the being forced to fight for two weeks further after a surrender. Just a horrible term in my opinion. Otherwise the reps themselves were not that high at all. As we saw by the NPO offering to pay a whole lot more in order to remove the two week attack period term.

1 billion more reps is not much more. This, of course, takes into account the 30+ billion holed up in banks.

EDIT: typo

Edited July 11, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Azhrarn]

My belief...

Your beliefs are wrong. All you've done is make umpteen different unjustified assumptions to "prove" your own predetermined conclusion.

The NPO doesn't believe in morals. We all know that, but if anyone ever had any doubt, the past 3 years has more than proven the point. But just because neither you nor the NPO believe in morals doesn't mean that no one else does either. You don't know what goes on in the minds of all those nation rulers in all those Karma alliances. And I don't suppose you notice the contradiction in claiming that the NPO believes it's morally justified in what it has done, or is doing now, after you just stated that morals have no place in war?

But I actually do agree with you on two things.

1) I don't believe the NPO leadership has ever considered morality in any decision they've made. Therefore, I don't believe for one moment that the NPO leadership believes they are morally justified in their past or present actions. Unlike you, I choose to be logically consistent.

2) I also agree that sacrificing an alliance's security for "going on a moral crusade" would be a bad idea. Therefore, I believe that Karma should continue to disregard the hypocritical criticism from NPO sympathizers *cough* HeinousOne *cough* who suddenly discovered ethics and morality after the NPO got beaten down, but never gave them a moment's thought when the NPO ruled Planet Bob like Caligula ruled Rome.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Vladimir]

1 billion more reps is not much more. This, of course, takes into account the 30+ billion holed up in banks.

We have offered more than that.

In terms of our banks with $1 billion war-chests (as Karma keeps going on about), this is not the issue. The issue is that they can only send 15 million every 10 days. You can point to our banks with their war-chests as proof of how easy it would be to pay, but it would take 2 years at 100% efficiency for one of those nations to send said war chest, and if it took that long we would have violated the minimum monthly requirement and you would have redeclared war on us as a result. So they sound impressive, but it doesn't do us much good I'm afraid.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Vladimir

[Yggdrazil]

I wasn't threatening you or the STA. I happen to like the STA. But since you have problems with reading comprehension, let me help you. You speak poorly. You can't reason. And your remarks are shot through with bias. Hence, when I read your remarks I have to remind myself that the STA does have people who speak and reason well, and are capable of objective thought - people like Tyga, for instance.

This is all ad hominem. Accusations with no proof and to accuse someone with bias when your vitriol hatred of NPO permeates all your posts is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Yes, because after I've just called you out for displaying clear bias and hypocrisy, obviously what I want next are yet further examples of your personal opinions unsubstantiated by logic, fairness or historical facts.

And you believe yours meet this standard.I have news for you, they don't.

I don't believe the NPO leadership has ever considered morality in any decision they've made. Therefore, I don't believe for one moment that the NPO leadership believes they are morally justified in their past or present actions. Unlike you, I choose to be logically consistent.

What does beliefs have to do with logic or consistency.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Yggdrazil

[HeinousOne]

1 billion more reps is not much more. This, of course, takes into account the 30+ billion holed up in banks.

EDIT: typo

Then add alot more tech and money to the terms. I doubt you will hear any protests. Certainly not from me.

Your beliefs are wrong. All you've done is make umpteen different unjustified assumptions to "prove" your own predetermined conclusion.

The NPO doesn't believe in morals. We all know that, but if anyone ever had any doubt, the past 3 years has more than proven the point. But just because neither you nor the NPO believe in morals doesn't mean that no one else does either. You don't know what goes on in the minds of all those nation rulers in all those Karma alliances. And I don't suppose you notice the contradiction in claiming that the NPO believes it's morally justified in what it has done, or is doing now, after you just stated that morals have no place in war?

But I actually do agree with you on two things.

1) I don't believe the NPO leadership has ever considered morality in any decision they've made. Therefore, I don't believe for one moment that the NPO leadership believes they are morally justified in their past or present actions. Unlike you, I choose to be logically consistent.

2) I also agree that sacrificing an alliance's security for "going on a moral crusade" would be a bad idea. Therefore, I believe that Karma should continue to disregard the hypocritical criticism from NPO sympathizers *cough* HeinousOne *cough* who suddenly discovered ethics and morality after the NPO got beaten down, but never gave them a moment's thought when the NPO ruled Planet Bob like Caligula ruled Rome.

At this point you really just do yourself a disservice to attack me in such a manner. I have stated plenty of times what single term my issue is with. I care not how high the rest of the terms are piled on NPO because they deserve that.

You can go ahead and continue to spin that as you obviously think I am a flagbearer for those with an opposing view of yours or something but to go so far with your claims towards me that I am an NPO sympathizer and that I am a hypocrite is to spit in the face of rationality and logic. I was a constant thorn in the side of the leaders while in NPO. Just ask them. Why? Because I disagreed with things they did. They dont like me for a reason, and by they I mean the leaders over there.

You constantly speak with ignorance and malice, anyone with knowledge of what you speak of will see how obvious that is. Trading words with you is impossible for you are actually unable to respect anyone that believes differently then you. Keep on with that. Time will tell the truth in all of this and it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are worried about things not going your way.

[Azhrarn]

You can go ahead and continue to spin that as you obviously think I am a flagbearer for those with an opposing view of yours or something but to go so far with your claims towards me that I am an NPO sympathizer and that I am a hypocrite is to spit in the face of rationality and logic. I was a constant thorn in the side of the leaders while in NPO. Just ask them. Why? Because I disagreed with things they did. They dont like me for a reason, and by they I mean the leaders over there.

I'm still waiting for you to link me to the posts you made criticizing the NPO when they decided to force GATO nations out of peace mode, warred the GPA, perma-warred FAN, imposed a Viceroy on Legion...

This is all ad hominem. Accusations with no proof and to accuse someone with bias when your vitriol hatred of NPO permeates all your posts is hypocrisy of the highest order.

You're really cute, making an ad hominem attack against me to accuse me of making an ad hominem attack against HeinousOne.

Anyway, I don't hate the NPO. I just want them to embrace the passion that is within them.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Azhrarn]

Double post.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn

[HeinousOne]

I'm still waiting for you to link me to the posts you made criticizing the NPO when they decided to force GATO nations out of peace mode, warred the GPA, perma-warred FAN, imposed a Viceroy on Legion...

You're really cute, making an ad hominem attack against me to accuse me of making an ad hominem attack against HeinousOne.

Anyway, I don't hate the NPO. I just want them to embrace the passion that is within them.

Still waiting for you to realize when I came into this world.

Edited July 11, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Azhrarn]

Still waiting for you to realize when I came into this world.

Riiight.

So if I'm to take you at face value, you haven't even been here for 5 months. If that's the case, you should sit down and shut up. Only an imbecile would get involved in an argument when he's completely ignorant of the issues involved.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn