I have a dream.

[Francesca]

You know, I resolved not to post in this thread again, but I thought that I would mention that I've just been queried on IRC and accused of being a Hegemony plant in Vox as a result of my "overly pro-NPO views" and more specifically for creating this thread. This is just ludicrous, and I wish you people would stop making stupid accusations.

[Sileath]

You know, I resolved not to post in this thread again, but I thought that I would mention that I've just been queried on IRC and accused of being a Hegemony plant in Vox as a result of my "overly pro-NPO views" and more specifically for creating this thread. This is just ludicrous, and I wish you people would stop making stupid accusations.

Hahhahaha

I have also been accused of ridiculous things I will tell you about them in private so the conspiracy theorists don't go bananas.

Basically, if you post with an original mind as opposed to a party line, you're going to get accused of something, no matter what

[President Kuse]

You know, I resolved not to post in this thread again, but I thought that I would mention that I've just been queried on IRC and accused of being a Hegemony plant in Vox as a result of my "overly pro-NPO views" and more specifically for creating this thread. This is just ludicrous, and I wish you people would stop making stupid accusations.

I only respect those that follow through on their obligations.

Such terms and Honor, Duty and Loyalty comes to mind here i believe.

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post a thread as such and expect people to fall in line behind you. Whoever you lead god forbid must have some very weak willed minds.

Also I think this quote below is rather suiting.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee

[Sup4l33t3ki11a]

I only respect those that follow through on their obligations.

Such terms and Honor, Duty and Loyalty comes to mind here i believe.

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post a thread as such and expect people to fall in line behind you. Whoever you lead god forbid must have some very weak willed minds.

Also I think this quote below is rather suiting.

I have a great deal of respect for francesca because she DOES do what she believes in. Not only that, she also tells us what she believes and believe it or not, she is often not far from accurate. People who follow are not weak as you say, but believe that there is room for change. A good quote to use, in place of yours: "Change we can believe in"

The quote you so academically provided has so many meanings it is impossible to direct in this context

[Sileath]

I have a great deal of respect for francesca because she DOES do what she believes in. Not only that, she also tells us what she believes and believe it or not, she is often not far from accurate. People who follow are not weak as you say, but believe that there is room for change. A good quote to use, in place of yours: "Change we can believe in"

Absolutely quoted for truth.

Francesca has a brilliant mind and I wish all of her detractors would read her posts more in-depth.

[NoFish]

I have a great deal of respect for francesca because she DOES do what she believes in. Not only that, she also tells us what she believes and believe it or not, she is often not far from accurate. People who follow are not weak as you say, but believe that there is room for change. A good quote to use, in place of yours: "Change we can believe in"

The quote you so academically provided has so many meanings it is impossible to direct in this context

Unfortunately "what she believes in" happens to be that the terms currently offered to the NPO are worse than giving a viceroy, decommissioning wonders, or having an indefinite nuke decom to alliances that were entirely innocent. I'm not entirely sure what world you have to live in for that to be not far from accurate.

[Beauty]

I only respect those that follow through on their obligations.

Such terms and Honor, Duty and Loyalty comes to mind here i believe.

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post a thread as such and expect people to fall in line behind you. Whoever you lead god forbid must have some very weak willed minds.

Also I think this quote below is rather suiting.

Take one and pass it down.

[Sup4l33t3ki11a]

Take one and pass it down.

<3 rota

[Waterana]

Unfortunately "what she believes in" happens to be that the terms currently offered to the NPO are worse than giving a viceroy, decommissioning wonders, or having an indefinite nuke decom to alliances that were entirely innocent. I'm not entirely sure what world you have to live in for that to be not far from accurate.

Please show me the surrender document where we've ever required an alliance to present any number of their nations for extra weeks of war. Nations that under other clauses of the document would also be not allowed to fight back (being hostile is a no no under the first clause of the same document), have no military improvements (under another clause of the same document), and have no military except a few soldiers (under another clause of the same document). Nowhere in the terms are there any exceptions to the clauses above for our 'sacrificial lambs', so we can only conclude there are none. And you wonder why our government, backed by the BR, said no.

Yes, the NPO has done some crappy things in the past, as I've already said in Grub's thread, but while doing this to us, if there was any chance in hell we'd accept it, may make you feel some small degree of satisfaction, don't be surprised that others, even those from your own side, are calling you out for it. The hostility they're beginning to garner for their troubles tells me that people aren't as free to speak out as touted in this brave new world. So, when's the next shark week?

Edited to add quote. Posting while half asleep isn't a good thing.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Waterana

[Francesca]

I only respect those that follow through on their obligations.

Such terms and Honor, Duty and Loyalty comes to mind here i believe.

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post a thread as such and expect people to fall in line behind you. Whoever you lead god forbid must have some very weak willed minds.

Also I think this quote below is rather suiting.

I could respond with all sorts of evidence that I actually uphold those values, but really, I'm not interested in focusing this thread on self-promotion. I just think that accusing anyone who I agree with of being weak-minded is rather pathetic. Fortunately, your conduct is not indicative of VE as a whole, and they continue to command my respect.

[Cataduanes]

I agree with the OP. Karma championed itself as the voice of change when the war first began. Now they are trying to dole out the harshest peace terms we have ever seen. Violence begets violence. It's like spanking a child for hitting. Are you really teaching them anything else but violence?

Karma championed nothing, some of its leaders claimed that...many of us in the ranks have an axe to grind for which i feel no shame whatsoever. The violence you refer to is part of 1V legacy, it is your collective behaviour and actions that led the Order and its lackeys to this point in history.

It was your 'gang' that set the precedence for asshatery of the highest order and you people have the temerity to try make us feel ashamed , i got news for you this is war and those still in the battlefield know what they have to do if they want the fighting to end.

Yes, the NPO has done some crappy things in the past, as I've already said in Grub's thread, but while doing this to us, if there was any chance in hell we'd accept it, may make you feel some small degree of satisfaction, don't be surprised that others, even those from your own side, are calling you out for it. The hostility they're beginning to garner for their troubles tells me that people aren't as free to speak out as touted in this brave new world. So, when's the next shark week?

Edited to add quote. Posting while half asleep isn't a good thing.

Crappy does not even come close to describing it , as for Shark Week that was a GOON tradition and i remember quite distinctly who GOONS were tied to (WUT/NPO) when Shark week was going on.

[Valerius]

I only respect those that follow through on their obligations.

Such terms and Honor, Duty and Loyalty comes to mind here i believe.

I cannot believe you have the audacity to post a thread as such and expect people to fall in line behind you. Whoever you lead god forbid must have some very weak willed minds.

Also I think this quote below is rather suiting.

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

I find your quote intriguing. "Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness". Huh, funny about that.

See Fran here spied on an enormous Hegemon in the name of her conscience, in order to aid in their mission a weak, besieged resistance movement. She now again supports the cause of the weak by confronting the political establishment and advocating the justice, justice to the NPO, the very people she fought to bring down. Fran has consistently shepherded the weak, to be in direct contrast to her is to support the strong. Yes, yes I'm looking at you.

Oh dear, did I just use your lovely biblical reference against you?

[Lizardo]

Karma has stated from the beginning that its purpose was to inflict upon the NPO and its allies a visitation of their past iniquities. They seem to have held to that. Nothing else has been offered.

I appreciate Francesca's argument but I should point out that contained within it is its own refutation. The fear of a resurgent and vengeful NPO is a valid consideration in the calculations of Karma.

For Francesca to succeed with her argument there needs be offered a solution.

The solution I propose is change the beast. As an alternative to destruction or continued war through 'reparations' reformat the alliance to something more politically responsible to its members. Having this as a principled goal, rather than simple vengeance will portend a more positive future for the whole of CN.

Francesca I fear is insightful that in the pursuit of harsh treatment it may be perpetuated. Instead, lets take a chance on perpetuating higher standards. In the corporate world once a company has a large number of shareholders it must meet standards of responsibility to those shareholders. Alliances in CN, once reaching a certain size, should no longer be a personal toy. Given sufficient protections and tools members will be able to form internal political movements that will both hold leaders accountable and enhance their experience.

A solution equally applicable to the victors as well.

As addendum, perpetual exile should be discouraged as well. While it may be desirable to remove certain leaders from positions of abuse once their political influence has dissipated they should be allowed freedom of movement. A year at maximum.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Lizardo

[NoFish]

Please show me the surrender document where we've ever required an alliance to present any number of their nations for extra weeks of war. Nations that under other clauses of the document would also be not allowed to fight back (being hostile is a no no under the first clause of the same document), have no military improvements (under another clause of the same document), and have no military except a few soldiers (under another clause of the same document). Nowhere in the terms are there any exceptions to the clauses above for our 'sacrificial lambs', so we can only conclude there are none. And you wonder why our government, backed by the BR, said no.

Yes, the NPO has done some crappy things in the past, as I've already said in Grub's thread, but while doing this to us, if there was any chance in hell we'd accept it, may make you feel some small degree of satisfaction, don't be surprised that others, even those from your own side, are calling you out for it. The hostility they're beginning to garner for their troubles tells me that people aren't as free to speak out as touted in this brave new world. So, when's the next shark week?

Edited to add quote. Posting while half asleep isn't a good thing.

Are you saying that 14 days of war is worse than a viceroy? Worse than getting your charter re-written? Worse than an indefinite limit on your nuclear arsenal to 13?

If NPO would be willing to submit to any of those, please let us know and I'm sure peace can be reached post-haste.

[Sileath]

Are you saying that 14 days of war is worse than a viceroy? Worse than getting your charter re-written? Worse than an indefinite limit on your nuclear arsenal to 13?

If NPO would be willing to submit to any of those, please let us know and I'm sure peace can be reached post-haste.

None of those things prevented your alliance from rebuilding. 14 days of war for NPO's PM nations will completely destroy their economic base.

[Waterana]

Are you saying that 14 days of war is worse than a viceroy? Worse than getting your charter re-written? Worse than an indefinite limit on your nuclear arsenal to 13?

If NPO would be willing to submit to any of those, please let us know and I'm sure peace can be reached post-haste.

I asked you to show me where we've done to others what you would like to do to us. Of course you can't, because we never forced any alliance to continue to sacrifice their nations after peace had been signed.

None of those things prevented your alliance from rebuilding. 14 days of war for NPO's PM nations will completely destroy their economic base.

Lets not forget the other gems in that document designed to assist the process.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Waterana

[NoFish]

I asked you to show me where we've done to others what you would like to do to us. Of course you can't, because we never forced any alliance to continue to sacrifice their nations after peace had been signed.

Lets not forget the other gems in that document designed to assist the process.

I thought you were implying that our terms were harsher than anything you'd done after I had posited that they weren't. My apologies for assuming something better than a ignoratio elenchi.

[Alicia]

I asked you to show me where we've done to others what you would like to do to us. Of course you can't, because we never forced any alliance to continue to sacrifice their nations after peace had been signed.

I think this fits the bill.

[Waterana]

I thought you were implying that our terms were harsher than anything you'd done after I had posited that they weren't. My apologies for assuming something better than a ignoratio elenchi.

Seriously,

You (those who fought us and Echelon) have people who fought on the Karma side of the war calling you out for the terms you've given/presented to us. They have no love for us. They are just as quick to condemn us for our past 'crimes' as you are. Some of them are past victims of our 'crimes'. The reason they're not happy is Karma was presented at the start of this war as the end of the hegemony and tyranny, a new beginning. No more of this stuff.

Yes, I know, some of you are now stating you never agreed with that, but none of you said so at the start. Only once you had us down did it emerge. Continuing to try to answer our rejection of your terms, which are something not seen before nor something ever given by us to others, with a 'no U' mentality is stupid. These terms are designed to continue the war after the peace, both the extra war and tech reps restriction are there to deal out more damage, as you can't really hurt us anymore by fighting us out in the open.

Yes, you won the war and have a right to give us whatever terms you like, just as we have the right to say no thanks and complain about it.

I think this fits the bill.

That was presented during the war, not as a peace term.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Waterana

[KingSuck]

I think this fits the bill.

If that's the case then without sounding too condescending; you're an idiot.

I know you guys just love to flash that thread around whenever you talk about the NPO but why don't you try and read what Waterana actually said before replying in the future.

[Cataduanes]

Seriously,

You (those who fought us and Echelon) have people who fought on the Karma side of the war calling you out for the terms you've given/presented to us. They have no love for us. They are just as quick to condemn us for our past 'crimes' as you are. Some of them are past victims of our 'crimes'. The reason they're not happy is Karma was presented at the start of this war as the end of the hegemony and tyranny, a new beginning. No more of this stuff.

Yes, I know, some of you are now stating you never agreed with that, but none of you said so at the start. Only once you had us down did it emerge. I'm not going to go down the 'you're bad as us' road, that is stupid in my honest opinion, but continuing to try to answer our rejection of your terms, which are something not seen before nor something ever given by us to others, with a 'no U' mentality is stupid too. These terms are designed to continue the war after the peace, both the extra war and tech reps restriction are there to deal out more damage, as you can't really hurt us anymore by fighting us out in the open.

Yes, you won the war and have a right to give us whatever terms you like, just as we have the right to say no thanks and complain about it.

That was presented during the war, not as a peace term.

uh no sorry some of us were straight up about our motives, perhaps you just happened to noticed the posts of 'high profile' Karma figures , did you also fail to notice the amount of internal Karma disagreements when terms were handed to Valhalla? there was plenty of Karma-Headz moaning about the lack of 'gravity' in the terms back then. Naturally its your right to complain but do not think any of us on the other side of the fence will sit there and let you and your sympathizers have run of the place

If that's the case then without sounding too condescending; you're an idiot.

I know you guys just love to flash that thread around whenever you talk about the NPO but why don't you try and read what Waterana actually said before replying in the future.

I have a better right than most to flash that thread or anything to do with that curbstomp, having bled for GATO in that war and suffered all the indiginities heaped upon it by 1V and its cronies i am still aggreived, it is a great example of why some of us have a valid reason(s) to feel pissed to this day....Archon and our other collective leaders may not have a fire of vengence (visibly) burning in their belly but many in the ranks do (not all of the alliances were TC as you no doubt know) and only an (without sounding condescending) idiot would be foolish to think that some utopian ideal is the sole motivating factor for Karma troops on the frontlines.

[VIdiot the Great]

I could respond with all sorts of evidence that I actually uphold those values, but really, I'm not interested in focusing this thread on self-promotion.

Really? Then what else could the focus of this thread be? As more time goes by, it's becoming clearer that your focus here and elsewhere is strictly about you. Nothing in this thread or the OP is in the least bit original and has been said elsewhere, ad infinitum.

I just think that accusing anyone who I agree with of being weak-minded is rather pathetic. Fortunately, your conduct is not indicative of VE as a whole, and they continue to command my respect.

This I agree with, you're not weak-minded at all. Your past speaks volumes about that. However, I do find the OP quite curious in one respect. When you were busy spying for Vox, which I will presume to mean that you wanted to see the destruction of the hegemony (as ES and others very clearly stated), how did you think this would end?

If the hegemony was filled with demons, you thought sending angels would accomplish the task? Of course not, you send monsters to kill monsters. That's the way it has worked, that's the way it will always work. Only now, when the monsters you helped to send are screaming for the blood that motivated them to join your cause do you second guess the very nature of those monsters.

If you want to play power politics, I'd suggest you not wear white in the future.

VI

[KingSuck]

I have a better right than most to flash that thread or anything to do with that curbstomp, having bled for GATO in that war and suffered all the indiginities heaped upon it by 1V and its cronies i am still aggreived, it is a great example of why some of us have a valid reason(s) to feel pissed to this day....Archon and our other collective leaders may not have a fire of vengence (visibly) burning in their belly but many in the ranks do (not all of the alliances were TC as you no doubt know) and only an (without sounding condescending) idiot would be foolish to think that some utopian ideal is the sole motivating factor for Karma troops on the frontlines.

that may be so, but it's still not relevant to Waterana's point

[Alicia]

If that's the case then without sounding too condescending; you're an idiot.

I know you guys just love to flash that thread around whenever you talk about the NPO but why don't you try and read what Waterana actually said before replying in the future.

I think you may have missed my point. Look at what I quoted:

I asked you to show me where we've done to others what you would like to do to us. Of course you can't, because we never forced any alliance to continue to sacrifice their nations after peace had been signed.

Had Pacifica carried out that threat I brought up then those peace mode nations would have been attacked, or sacrificed as Waterana put it, despite GATO having received peace terms.

The best counter-argument you could have used was that Pacifica didn't carry out said threat. Instead of actually pointing that out you attack my character.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Alicia

[KingSuck]

I think you may have missed my point. Look at what I quoted:

Had Pacifica carried out that threat I brought up then those peace mode nations would have been attacked, or sacrificed as Waterana put it, despite GATO having received peace terms.

The best counter-argument you could have used was that Pacifica didn't carry out said threat. Instead of actually pointing that out you attack my character.

I didn't miss anything, Waterana asked you to show her an example of when they've forced an alliance to sacrifice members after peace had been signed. Your 'example' is a threat made to peace mode nations way before peace terms were issued which not only is irrelevant imo due to being completely independent of peace terms but at the same time, as you so kindly pointed out, it never even happened.

Using an example of something that Pacifica didn't even do to undermine them is pretty idiotic in my mind