Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Master-Debater]

Only if you let them. Why do people keep spouting this crap? The one thing this war has proved is that the NPO is not some magical invulnerable alliance that can accomplish anything at will. By continuing to live in fear of them you are only perpetuating that myth. Also, the implied "they're better than us" sentiment that goes along with it.

The fact that so many people are fighting them shows that people dont fear NPO as they used to.

Many people I talk to have zero fear of NPO and have said they will openly raid the red team with or without a NPO doctrine.

People fear a repeat of history. Weve seen what happens when NPO gets off easy. That mistake wont happen twice.

[Rafael Nadal]

I agree with the overall sentiment. I disagree about using Pacifica as a measuring stick. I feel Pacifica's terms as currently offered are fair, relative to their sins and actions of the past. I don't think Karma came about to create a doctrine of "light terms", but rather, deserved terms. Alliances embroiled in defensive wars shouldn't be receiving backbreaking reps and terms of membership expulsion, for example. Terms should scale with the crimes, and I consider our mission to be correcting the imbalance of where that scale had inflated to.

This topic is not about NPO's terms, how we got to them, etc, so I will not delve into that.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[Earogema]

Only if you let them. Why do people keep spouting this crap? The one thing this war has proved is that the NPO is not some magical invulnerable alliance that can accomplish anything at will. By continuing to live in fear of them you are only perpetuating that myth. Also, the implied "they're better than us" sentiment that goes along with it.

See here's the problem with that. You assume that if we don't keep them down, they'll just ruin things for other people.

Tell me, why should I spare them at all then?

[Israfeel]

If Karma was only out for tech, you and most of your allies would not have gotten off with such light terms.

I get the feeling it wasn't out of the kindness of their hearts that they gave light terms to those who surrendered first.

See here's the problem with that. You assume that if we don't keep them down, they'll just ruin things for other people.

Tell me, why should I spare them at all then?

Because the flag that people rallied under, the purpose of this crusade against the evil of the NPO was to bring down tyranny. It was to bring an end to alliance ending / Community destruction and crazy terms. Yet Karma has demonstrated it is rapidly becoming what it set out to destroy and the excuses for such behavior are running thin.

This irrational fear of the NPO needs to be dealt with, either stop lying or grow a backbone. You can't keep an alliance down forever, if they exist. You just have to play the game.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Israfeel

[The Corrupt Teacher]

Only if you let them. Why do people keep spouting this crap? The one thing this war has proved is that the NPO is not some magical invulnerable alliance that can accomplish anything at will. By continuing to live in fear of them you are only perpetuating that myth. Also, the implied "they're better than us" sentiment that goes along with it.

Oh I'm sure LUE, ONOS, GATO, Legion, GPA, and the others just rolled over and let it happen As I recall there was another war about it in which NPO defied all odds to come back and take them out again. I respect NPO I know how smart and tough they are and personally I don't wan them steam-rolling CnG or anyone again for quite some time. Seeing Heft how you haven't been on that nice side of NPO but right there holding there hand while stomping on small alliances I think your missing some of the perspective on this. Ditto to all the self-righteous Citadel members who for so long sat around and did NOTHING while CnG and BLEU were stomped into the ground... or GATO....or GPA.... OR IAA.... or CIS.... or VE..... The List goes on and on and on.

[Hydro]

nvm bad post

Edited July 6, 2009 by Hydro

[WarriorConcept]

I get the feeling it wasn't out of the kindness of their hearts that they gave light terms to those who surrendered first.

Should I direct you to the Valhalla or GGA threads?

[Heft]

Regarding the NPO terms, our allies feel that they are owed that much and many of them have been subject to NPO orchestrated actions that have created great hardships. We have agreed with them on this. If this were an aggressive war made up of all heavy ex-hegemony alliances I believe we would have a different view. Either way, the best and most honorable way to solve disagreements on terms is to do so in private. We won't pull out of a war and leave our allies hanging.

How much deeper would you need to get besides passing on an opportunity for reps? If we really didn't change, would we be accepting no reps from our two opponents in this war?

What it comes down to for me is that I simply don't trust your alliance or a number of its leaders, largely because of the deception they carried out on myself and others.

[the damned]

The attitude I see here has not shown it. The attitude is of a political victor, not anything deeper. Sparta still allows and condones the same things they allowed and condoned a year ago.

Before we became allies to Pacifica and her friends we were a major target on her list. We were never an alliance that demanded high reps from anyone and we always treated our opponents with civility and, as best we could, a decent sense of humor. Even now we have not asked a damn thing in the way of reps from the order.

[Sir Paul]

If you truly felt sorry for how you conducted yourselves in the past you'll admit it on your own.

I disagree. Any apology from the New Pacific Order would be a transparent PR stunt done to get sympathy, just like the whole Moldavi Doctrine thing. The best apology the NPO could do would be to disband and delete their nations.

[TehChron]

The fact that so many people are fighting them shows that people dont fear NPO as they used to.

Many people I talk to have zero fear of NPO and have said they will openly raid the red team with or without a NPO doctrine.

People fear a repeat of history. Weve seen what happens when NPO gets off easy. That mistake wont happen twice.

You're completely missing the point of the post.

The idea that somehow harsh reps will keep the NPO from re-oppressing the planet is deeply and hilariously flawed. That folks use it are lying through their teeth. At least you're honest about your motivations, rather than using a false moral directive to justify them like most of Karma does.

[muffasamini]

And no, the war does not become defensive for NPO because they've had enough. They started the war and now they are losing, but they still started it.

"But he started it!" And now its up to you to finish it. I dont understand why people love this argument. OK? We "started it"? Well, we lost, and its time to end it. We have stated not what we dont want to accept, but what we CANNOT accept. Now its your turn. The onus of peace is on you. And if you think its on us, we are at a serious impass that needs to be fixed. Unless of course you dont want it fixed, but I need to get the tin-foil for that.

Edited July 6, 2009 by muffasamini

[Earogema]

What it comes down to for me is that I simply don't trust your alliance or a number of its leaders, largely because of the deception they carried out on myself and others.

All of Planet Bob's politics are deception.

Get over it jeez. I saw tons of leaders lie to each other in my tenure at Vox. I've seen schisms within Q and lies to each other within by NPO too.

[Beauty]

I can not in good conscience stand by and let this community effectively destroy yet another chunk of itself in the name of revenge.

Thats right, They should do it in the name of LOVE!

Ok bad joke, But i agree. If they disband NPO all theyll be saying in a year is "Well i miss NPO kind of, I wonder what they would be like now..."

[Delta1212]

I'm not one of the people in this game that has been overly oppressed. Don't get me wrong, I've skirted the edge on numerous occasions, and found myself on the wrong end of the sole of a boot once or twice, if not with particular force. Mostly, I attribute this to the fact that I'm far better at making friends than enemies. I don't expect everyone to like me, but I go out of my way to avoid making the kind of bitter enemy that really wants to see you die, and I've been fairly decent at patching things up with people when there is trouble. This is both a useful skill and something of a flaw. I've been far more likely to bend on issues and find compromise than to stand firm, even on the rare occasion that compromise or conflict avoidance was the poorer choice.

In doing so, I have let some people down. I've let them down by allowing people like you to run rough-shod over them with an entirely undeserved attitude of moral superiority. As an alliance, Polaris pushed through the flame and came out tempered and with a great deal of very deserved respect. As a leader, you faced down some incredible challenges and you brought your alliance into an unequaled era of prowess and ability. You are intelligent, charismatic, and knowledgeable. You also have a fairly surprising lack of substance. It's not something I've commented on, but believe me, I have been noting it. There is no situation that you cannot break out a comment marking your disdain for the quite dreadful behavior of those involved, tempered by some balance and understanding but making sure everyone knows that they have done at least something wrong, or if not that, are worse than you would act in such a situation.

But that's the thing I find rather disappointing about you. You are still milking the NoCB war for credibility. And as much credit as Polar deserves for its perseverance in that conflict, even that is not a situation in which you personally stood for anything. You were backed into a corner with no escape and you survived. It's commendable, but it does not furnish you with a deserved level of self-righteousness to match the one you have draped over your back. Tyga will most certainly chew me out for this, but I am forced to quote Tyga's Law at you. "The frequency of an alliance member's whining is inversely proportional to the contribution they make to their alliance." You, Grub, are the alliance member that constantly complains about the bad situation of the community. Who pleads with everyone and calls for reform, but who never goes out and personally contributes. Granted, you are extremely eloquent, but a beautiful complaint does no more to help solve a problem than a coarse one. It just makes the complainer seem smarter to people who aren't paying attention.

I have far, far more respect for people who are willing to put everything on the line to follow through on their moral code than those like you who are content to hurl moral outrage till they are blue in the face and expect to be carried along on a righteous tidal wave of support without having to stick out their neck unless its behind a bulletproof wall. To some extent, that even includes myself. Where you always find the time to point out, even obliquely, your moral superiority in comparison to those you disdain, I do not put myself on my own pedestal. I'm just not quite that strong-willed. No, the people I respect more than anyone else in this little world we have are those like Xiphosis.

And now I'm going to get about thirty thousand people all balking at once. I've had to defend him against every name from "jerk" to "vindictive tyrant." You know what? That's all of it !@#$%^&*. He's the single most moral person I know, he just doesn't give a !@#$ whether or not you personally like him, which puts him a step above everyone else on this planet. He has set himself a very strict ethical guideline that revolves around loyalty, honesty, directness and an unflinchingly uncompromising follow through of his own moral standards. Every person purporting to have attained a higher level of moral standard that I know has in someone compromised or bent their own rules when they felt it was necessary including myself. I have never seen this from Xiphosis. When he sees something wrong with the world in his view, he goes out and he fixes it. And he does it bluntly and in ways that most people don't like. But that's the thing, while everyone gets so caught up in whether or not a decision will make them unpopular that they lose focus on how they are actually impacting the world, he does not.

So have fun sitting there looking down on those of lower moral standard while the masses hail blindly at hollow words. "Do something about it" may historically be a trite line used to mock the weak, but you know what, it's something we should be taking to heart. For once, in this war, we saw a world we didn't like and we did something about it. It's a lesson that something can always be done, and where it needs to be done, it should be done. I have far more respect for those who go out there and try to fix things instead of sitting aroun and !@#$%*ing about it. Even if the people trying to fix the world only wind up breaking it, at least they have proof that they weren't content with the crap they had been dealt and wanted to make something better out of it even if the attempt pissed off everyone else around them.

Want a summary? Spare me the self-aggrandizement and righteous indignation. We're all in the gutter, but the people who pretend they're in the stars already sure aren't the ones capable of looking up at them.

[WarriorConcept]

I disagree. Any apology from the New Pacific Order would be a transparent PR stunt done to get sympathy, just like the whole Moldavi Doctrine thing. The best apology the NPO could do would be to disband and delete their nations.

If that's your attempt at sattire, it's not very good but rather reminds us of the same attitude you've had for a while, and doesn't make it seem as if you've had any change of heart whatsoever.

Keep trying to act cute though

[Israfeel]

Should I direct you to the Valhalla or GGA threads?

I get the terms were light.

I am implying they were to isolate the NPO and whoever remained. Sustaining an enternal war against 700 nations is easier than one against 1500-2100 nations.

[AnCapistan]

If Karma was only out for tech, you and most of your allies would not have gotten off with such light terms.

I should fix my post:

The Battle for "How much we can humiliate,degrade,violate the sovereignty, and destroy our enemies" has just begun.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Mr Damsky

[muffasamini]

If that's your attempt at sattire, it's not very good but rather reminds us of the same attitude you've had for a while, and doesn't make it seem as if you've had any change of heart whatsoever.

Keep trying to act cute though

I highly doubt anything we do will appease you

[Stonewall Jaxon]

NPO's karmic return was that they lost everything that they held dear. That would be their hold on the Red Sphere, the number 1 sanction place as well as their position at the peak of the CN political mountain. That is their Karmic return for doing it wrong with the peace conditions They controlled.

I'm not saying whether or not they have been punished enough because I do not benefit either way. It is Karma's decision as to whether or not holding down NPO is still beneficial. Someday we shall see if they are making the right decision.

Peace conditions that Karma controls will affect Karma's karma. It is perpetual and cyclical. You even state near the end of your post how Karma will end up doing it just like NPO did so how can you think that they will not be seen in the same light someday in the future?

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the definition of karma. It is not naturally cyclical, people make it cyclical. Now, patterns in treaty webs and strength charts with human nature over time will reveal a few patterns in the way CN is run. NPO's "karma" is a direct result of decisions they made and how those decisions forged a coalition of hellbent enemies. Think of this game as Shakespeare's (he's a playwright who resides in a faraway nation ) historical plays. Characters are constantly locked in a struggle for supremacy, and the one who is wronged by the king on one day is the one who stabs the king the next in the next play. Another rule is that no reign lasts forever, eventually each of the Karma alliances will bring out their own demise, either through making enemies or standing between someone else and their goal of greater power.

[TehChron]

All of Planet Bob's politics are deception.

Get over it jeez. I saw tons of leaders lie to each other in my tenure at Vox. I've seen schisms within Q and lies to each other within by NPO too.

Some folks are upfront and honest about their dealings.

Dont try and say hypocrisy is suddenly fine because "everyone else does it", especially when the generalization you used is wrong on it's head.

[Earogema]

You're completely missing the point of the post.

The idea that somehow harsh reps will keep the NPO from re-oppressing the planet is deeply and hilariously flawed. That folks use it are lying through their teeth. At least you're honest about your motivations, rather than using a false moral directive to justify them like most of Karma does.

Then just keep them at war forever.

See, whenever you admit that if we let them off the hook they'll go back to being jerks, I don't want to let them off the hook.

Me? I think they've had enough sure. But come on. If the original position of the NPO is keep using tactics of destruction, why would I let them go?

[George the Great]

You still condone the same actions you have in the past. You still apparently don't have the guts to stand up and stop the group you're a part of from doing things you disagree with. But you are much more arrogant than you were before, and its entirely undeserved. You achieved your current position through blatantly lying to longtime allies for months. That's a great moral victory right there.

What actions do we condone? Punishment on a party that is actually guilty? You're absolutely correct. If we wanted to stand up to something else, we would. We don't disagree with the terms the NPO has been given, and as such, we're not going to disagree with them. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we haven't changed. I apologize if that knocks Planet Bob's orbit around you a tad off course. We didn't really blatantly lie, either. The only questions we were asked were going to leave Q (which we were asked at least 3 times a week and actually helped lead to our leaving) and if we were going to join another bloc, which we didn't (though we admitted that we were in talks for another bloc). We, and other alliances, did try to change Q while we were in it, it just didn't work.

Edited July 6, 2009 by George the Great

[Earogema]

Some folks are upfront and honest about their dealings.

Dont try and say hypocrisy is suddenly fine because "everyone else does it", especially when the generalization you used is wrong on it's head.

I'm saying that he doesn't exactly have a leg to stand on for this honestly. I was in Vox. We exposed those lies. I saw tons of them within all Q camps.

[sir justin]

Once NPO and its leaders makes a sincere apology for all its done wrong in the past, then all of us here in the public might start to believe you guys. Until then we don't have TWiP anymore so we can't really judge based on how you guys are acting internally, only on all the posts done externally.

As the author of the "Poll: New Home Page" that Muffasamini refers to, I can tell you that there have been a series of topics on the NPO forums regarding our changed position in the world, a self-examination that is attempting to explore our past wrongs (that I, as a member from December 08, had nothing to do with) and chart a course for a different future. I doubt that TWiP would care to report on such a topic, mundane as it may be in this world of warfare.

Also, I doubt any of our apologies would make much of a difference. Who will judge its "sincerity"? Who will judge "all [we've] done wrong in the past"? My Emperor apologized for past wrongs in the surrender thread and it was mocked and derided. All attempts in good faith are rebuffed (by a small minority, I hope). Still, I hope CN knows that the hearts of many Pacificans are changed, and we are the heart of the NPO.