Commander Cato Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Can't say I agree with all of this but NPO must be punished for their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalaskan Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Very good post. VERY good post, I agree 100%. My respect for you Polaris, has grown ever-more. Agreed...Grub and NpO have gained mass respect from me personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffasamini Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Nice sentiments, but the real question is, what's NpO going to do about it? Might makes right amaright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salmia Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Why should we be better? Heh. Your friends created this world we live in, they can learn to experience the other side of it. Because one of the lines that was told by Karma at the beginning of this war was that you would change things. So tell me, if you keep the things the same way they are, how is that going to change anything? By sinking to their level, then it is a cycle of the same things happening over and over. They created this world? Not on their own, they didn't. They couldn't do anything that the rest of the world didn't condone. We condoned it as a whole, not just one alliance controlling everyone else. It takes a community to do that and a community to create that world. And so, if you punish them by the old rules, nothing will change. The same things will happen over and over. You'll get a cycle of revenge seeking people constantly oppressing the others and if I recall correctly, that is something that Karma, at the beginning, sought to change. Turning this into a revenge hunt is exactly what they did and sinking to that level doesn't change a thing or make you any better... and that allows for the same thing to happen again and again. Letting revenge blind you will eventually just put the same alliances in the same situations. Just remember if following that reasoning and allowing the rules to remain the same, that means that the opportunity that the world that was created before would just happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Cause the TWiP was allways 100% truth . The apology is one of the terms we've stated were ok with. We got yelled at last time we stole karma's thunder giving Moldavi. (apparently a shallow PR stunt) We'll say it during the terms so Karma can look moore like a badass. I said sincere, not one forced on you by terms that you could take back like Ivan did in the past. If you truly felt sorry for how you conducted yourselves in the past you'll admit it on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 The definition of karma is vengeance- the naturally caused vengeance for wrongdoing. My friends, there is no morality here. People do what they have to do to accomplish their goals, and the goals of most major alliances is to become top dog. When NPO was top dog, they made decisions that were viewed as "immoral," such as EZI and eternal war. However, their actions had equal and opposite reactions. They created eternal enemies who couldn't survive in the game until NPO was brought down, and brought down NPO was. The decisions NPO made were the cause of their demise, and the severity of those decisions is what is causing their current situation. Now that Karma alliances are on top, their natural role in CN is to want to stay there. Right now, they have determined that their most lucrative path is to keep NPO down, and until there is a potential consequence, they will continue to do so. That's just how the cycle of endless chaos works. Sorry if my thoughts seem jumbled. I really could write a WoT about this philosophy, but I won't. Call it "Chaosism," or "Realism" if you want to use a [OOC] real [/OOC] term NPO's karmic return was that they lost everything that they held dear. That would be their hold on the Red Sphere, the number 1 sanction place as well as their position at the peak of the CN political mountain. That is their Karmic return for doing it wrong with the peace conditions They controlled. Peace conditions that Karma controls will affect Karma's karma. It is perpetual and cyclical. You even state near the end of your post how Karma will end up doing it just like NPO did so how can you think that they will not be seen in the same light someday in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Corrupt Teacher Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Nah, cripple them beyond recognition. It's the least that should be done in the name of karma. Even a cripple still exists, which is more then many of NPO's former enemies can say. QFT seriously we all know that those terms wouldn't cripple NPO for life anyway just like Polar's terms didn't cripple them in fact they'd come back leaner and stronger than before except we've seen what happens when NPO has gotten light terms the come back and crush those who were stupid enough to give them to them. On the other hand the terms given to Echelon and whoever wrote those out wasn't thinking properly. Those were stupid in the highest degree especially when alliances like GGA and Valhalla got away scott free when they deserved it more so than an Echelon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Cause the TWiP was allways 100% truth . The apology is one of the terms we've stated were ok with. We got yelled at last time we stole karma's thunder giving Moldavi. (apparently a shallow PR stunt) We'll say it during the terms so Karma can look moore like a badass. Moldavi cancellation came off very much as a PR stunt trying to end things....it came off as giving a dog a bone.... Now, I do not know what NPO could do to seem sincere, as for the most part there is no trust of them from people in Karma, people in the hegemony, and people not involved. Trust is the biggest thing you can have and acting like decent people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Cause the TWiP was allways 100% truth . The apology is one of the terms we've stated were ok with. We got yelled at last time we stole karma's thunder giving Moldavi. (apparently a shallow PR stunt) We'll say it during the terms so Karma can look moore like a badass. The beauty of TWiP was that I could write whatever I wanted to between the screencaps and logs, because people were getting a laugh from what I wrote but the real info was in the logs and screencaps. Yes, TWiP was 100% truth because the real message was 100% written by NPO members and government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popsumpot Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Use that line on someone else, I've wished complete and utter destruction on NPO and cronies for over a year. And hence, Canik's line fits perfectly on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnCapistan Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 The only alliances remaining that can consider themselves "Karma" anymore are those on the NPO and TPF front. If you look at those alliances left do you really see any of them acting like NPO has in the past? One of those alliances already has 0.o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Because one of the lines that was told by Karma at the beginning of this war was that you would change things. So tell me, if you keep the things the same way they are, how is that going to change anything? By sinking to their level, then it is a cycle of the same things happening over and over.They created this world? Not on their own, they didn't. They couldn't do anything that the rest of the world didn't condone. We condoned it as a whole, not just one alliance controlling everyone else. It takes a community to do that and a community to create that world. And so, if you punish them by the old rules, nothing will change. The same things will happen over and over. You'll get a cycle of revenge seeking people constantly oppressing the others and if I recall correctly, that is something that Karma, at the beginning, sought to change. Turning this into a revenge hunt is exactly what they did and sinking to that level doesn't change a thing or make you any better... and that allows for the same thing to happen again and again. Letting revenge blind you will eventually just put the same alliances in the same situations. Just remember if following that reasoning and allowing the rules to remain the same, that means that the opportunity that the world that was created before would just happen again. Mia, I think you need to remember every alliance on hegemony's side and the peace terms given to ALL of them, not just NPO and Echelon, for a real objective view on how Karma has been changing the landscape from the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 One of those alliances already has 0.o Post-war, obviously. This battle isn't over yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 The attitude I see here has not shown it. The attitude is of a political victor, not anything deeper. Sparta still allows and condones the same things they allowed and condoned a year ago. Regarding the NPO terms, our allies feel that they are owed that much and many of them have been subject to NPO orchestrated actions that have created great hardships. We have agreed with them on this. If this were an aggressive war made up of all heavy ex-hegemony alliances I believe we would have a different view. Either way, the best and most honorable way to solve disagreements on terms is to do so in private. We won't pull out of a war and leave our allies hanging. How much deeper would you need to get besides passing on an opportunity for reps? If we really didn't change, would we be accepting no reps from our two opponents in this war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Very well said and I most whole-heartedly agree. For those that might have grazed over this post, this here is one of the Two appointed leaders of Karma. This is your general folks and he is telling you that you are standing at the edge. I have to say, I am pleased with the showing in this thread from members of Citadel. I knew we all had to have Something in common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desperado Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Really?Sooooo where's the EZI of leaders? Force disbandment's? Terms impossible to meet? Endless war because they have no intention of giving peace? Endless surrender terms? Force ejection of members? (caffeine wasn't ejected) I'm curious how any terms presented are harsher than those NPO has given in the past. They are harsh but are by far not harsher than what NPO has given alliances. If caffine didn't leave a week ago the terms did explicitly eject him and sentence to zi of some sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Also one question to AlmightyGrub. I have tons of respect for you but one thing I could never understand is why you willingly joined NpO and supported ES after he singlehandedly forced NAAC to disband. If you care so much about saving communities, why did you help one of the people personally responsible for destroying one gain more power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 QFT seriously we all know that those terms wouldn't cripple NPO for life anyway just like Polar's terms didn't cripple them in fact they'd come back leaner and stronger than before except we've seen what happens when NPO has gotten light terms the come back and crush those who were stupid enough to give them to them.On the other hand the terms given to Echelon and whoever wrote those out wasn't thinking properly. Those were stupid in the highest degree especially when alliances like GGA and Valhalla got away scott free when they deserved it more so than an Echelon. Only if you let them. Why do people keep spouting this crap? The one thing this war has proved is that the NPO is not some magical invulnerable alliance that can accomplish anything at will. By continuing to live in fear of them you are only perpetuating that myth. Also, the implied "they're better than us" sentiment that goes along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barix9 Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Can't say I agree with all of this but NPO must be punished for their crimes. I agree 100% cato. Grub sorry but I dont agree with you. Dont worry though. we can still be friends!!!! well... aslong as there's cookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elendil old Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Thank you Grub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnCapistan Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Post-war, obviously. This battle isn't over yet. Yah Your right.... The Battle for "How much tech we can squeeze out of the remainder of the Hegemony forces" has just begun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriegsdrachen Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I've always liked you, Grub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I believe Bob Janova put it best here: I remain deeply cynical about these oh-so-coincidental epiphanies about harsh terms.In addition, Karma has made a difference, look at all the lenient terms offered to peripheral alliances in this war, and even some of the main actors like Valhalla and GGA. Karma stands for justice, not for free pardons. It does not stand against harsh terms per se, but against unjustified terms; justice is subjective but NPO deserves bad terms far more than many alliances in the past which you and your kind raised not a single objection to. And no, the war does not become defensive for NPO because they've had enough. They started the war and now they are losing, but they still started it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Hell no you aren't me.But enough with the wordplay. Grub, you know I respect you even though I don't agree with you 100%. In theory, I would agree with your post 110%. Sadly, there is one factor that you haven't thought of as far as NPO goes. Polaris learned her lesson but Pacfica has not. Pacifica hasn't changed much of its policies or its mentality. I haven't seen any, at least. You have to have faith! Every alliance on the "hegemony" side changed their attitude dramatically the moment the first DoW came on Pacifica. Some even changed before that when they departed from the Continuum to fight against who they once supported. What odds that if the NPO does rise up and seek revenge that the "terms" will be blamed for fueling the rage behind the revenge? No matter how light they end up being. It won't be Pacifica not changing, it'll be someone else's fault for oppressing them. Imprisoning people only creates career criminals. Not punishing criminals creates career criminals with no fear of punishment. Either way, it is never the criminals' fault, it is everyone else either by oppressing them or enabling them. I have no interest in seeing the NPO destroyed but I do not mind seeing them punished. As for change, I'll believe it when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Yah Your right....The Battle for "How much tech we can squeeze out of the remainder of the Hegemony forces" has just begun If Karma was only out for tech, you and most of your allies would not have gotten off with such light terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts