Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Israfeel]

Spare me your moral indignation, most of the alliances got off with light terms, mostly even white peace, while some of the main perpetrators of what you so willingly labeled "the stone age" got the just punishment its deserved. The main calling here is about NPO's terms, and they were not in fulfilling a treaty obligation.

I guess you don't want to defend what Karma did to Echelon.

This is what it comes down to though.

"I don't care"

Once you are on top, it is really easy to do.

It's fine really, this war against the top dogs started over resentment of how they conducted themselves or "moral indignation".

[George the Great]

We may have been a bit harsh with Big Biz but CK attempted to outright steal members from Sparta to join his alliance. As for the actual details you have to talk to some of the upper crust Spartans at the time. sorry im not too much help there.

And the only reason he was a senator on Pink and able to sanction Spartans was because he had been a member not too long before and was surprisingly Sparta's candidate for senator. D:

[OOC]He never left the game, though. We're actually on good terms with his current re-roll. [/OOC]

Anyway, this is a bit off topic, no?

Edited July 6, 2009 by George the Great

[Earogema]

Why can't they fight against it and not impose ridiculous terms?!

Humiliating and forcing an alliance to become a tech farm for honorably defending an ally, for fulfilling a treaty obligation is monstrous by any standards. So many alliances profiting from the corruption of Karma is quite frankly disgusting. As grub said, Karma has its hands on some power and it is using it to push this community back to the stone age.

Oh come on. Karma will have forced maybe 1 alliance to disband (but NPO won't disband and we know it.) However, NPO has forced MULTIPLE alliances to disband AND kept FAN at war for 2 years. That's hardly "pushing this community back to the stone age."

Also, may I remind you NPO didn't defend an ally nor fulfilled a treaty obligation. It acted on its own.

Edited July 6, 2009 by MegaAros

[Bob Sanders]

I believed I was fighting on the moral side of the war, for justice, and honour, and other values I hold dear.

Not their fault that you are a sucker.

To be fair, those fighting Echelon did ban Caffine from Echelon government as a part of their terms.

To be even more fair, this term is far more beneficial to Echelon than it is to any of the alliances fighting them.

[iamthey]

I have to say this is the best announcement I have seen in a long time. You have it pegged perfectly.

o/ polaris

o/ grub

[TehChron]

So you’re really going to argue that if NPO got off on light terms they would not re arm and attempt to get back at people for old grudges?

Have you seen what has happened over the past few years? At all? Need a list of former NPO enemies that were attacked by the NPO on trumped up claims? What about former allies? Neutrals?

Im all for harsh and possible terms.

They have it coming. I personally believe that blaming them for communities disbanding, however, is stupid, especially in the case of LUE and GOONs. In the case of LUE, they consciously realized what they were doing when they jumped into GWIII while under terms.

It was a kamikaze move for the sake of "the Good Fight". GOONs...Well, frankly speaking, GOONs didnt like losing all that much. Some people decided that it would be easier to just disband and thus not have to deal with reps. Clearly the communities were not worth the sacrifice.

And what former allies are you referring to? The Green Civil War? If you are, then clearly you should be looking at GGA moreso than the NPO, as the NPO and WUT only did it at GGAs suggestion to begin with. Not that VE and CIS werent already provoking the crap out of us to begin with, and thus eliminated any reason not to participate.

GPA was attacked for the same reason GATO was in order to start GWIII, because they were trying to pull some nonsense behind closed doors, failed spectacularly, and thus brought it on themselves. Fake CB or no.

Anyway, im pretty sure all alliances defeated in this war would like to get revenge. Thats not the point.

The point is that using it as an excuse when it is not logically feasible, and are aware of this fact, is lying through your teeth.

[WarriorConcept]

And again: "But we only did it to SOME of them!"

-Bama

And you're in an alliance that has done it to all of them. If you truly hated all those kinds of terms why the hell did you fight for tpf and then later join them? Shut up, you're only preaching this argument now because it's convenient for you, nothing more.

[the damned]

I dont know, matthew, were you in sparta at the time? do you have anything but second hand info to go on concerning that point?

[Voodoo Nova]

Not their fault that you are a sucker.

To be even more fair, this term is far more beneficial to Echelon than it is to any of the alliances fighting them.

Shouldn't that be a choice for Echelon to make?

[He Who Has No Name]

Grub, do you remember the night Ivan posted his "apology" that ended the first Great War?

Because I do, but I think you don't.

Edited July 6, 2009 by He Who Has No Name

[Israfeel]

Oh come on. Karma will have forced maybe 1 alliance to disband (but NPO won't disband and we know it.) However, NPO has forced MULTIPLE alliances to disband AND kept FAN at war for 2 years. That's hardly "pushing this community back to the stone age."

Also, may I remind you NPO didn't defend an ally nor fulfilled a treaty obligation. It acted on it's own.

My apologies, I was referring to the Echelon terms. Go take a look at those. (And thats for an alliance there shouldn't be much beef with)

Really goes to prove it doesn't matter what the NPO did. Karma is just out flex its muscles.

[Matthew Conrad]

I dont know, matthew, were you in sparta at the time? do you have anything but second hand info to go on concerning that point?

By undermining, I mean he recruited our members. Which he did.

[WarriorConcept]

I guess you don't want to defend what Karma did to Echelon.

This is what it comes down to though.

"I don't care"

Once you are on top, it is really easy to do.

It's fine really, this war against the top dogs started over resentment of how they conducted themselves or "moral indignation".

I guess you're defending what hegemony has done to everyone else in the past then, huh? If they didn't care, they could've given terms like that to tons more alliances with plenty of justification to back it up. You're grasping for straws, well really just one.

[Caliph]

You are barring someone from entering government of an alliance. This is the exact same thing NPO did to GATO.

I don't claim to know the exact reasoning behind that one, but since it isn't worse than what Echelon supported, and what NPO did, and what the other hegemony alliances supported and did, I just can't get all that worked up about it.

I mean, were you here denouncing such a practice when NPO and friends were doing this?

I was, and I see such an action as the very definition of Karma. Karma is not a "slap on the wrist" coalition, contrary to what the failed attempts at propoganda early on stated. Certain alliances not deemed sufficient threats or sufficient targets were granted white peace, others lenient terms, and the core of the "Hegemony" harsh terms.

If you believe that all of those alliances on Hegemonies side would all "learn their lesson" after all getting white peace, you are delusional.

Now I think some of the terms offered this war are harsh, and as written aren't acceptable to those alliances on the recieving end, but then again those same alliances thought nothing of delivering harsh terms to others.

If you were here when those harsh terms in the past were handed down, and you were outspoken against such terms then, than I applaud you for maintaining your stance.

[Urmom]

Well said Grub, my respect for you and Polar has grown tremendously over these past few months. And to Karma, please don't become the beast you sought to destroy. You may feel that NPO deserved these terms, and may be right in thinking that, but that is all subjective and over time (at least if we are going at the current rate) terms are going to become progressively worse and worse if it's not stopped now. To paraphrase what Matthew PK said, don't make reparations to show an end to your era, base them on how you would like to start your new era.

[Bob Sanders]

Besides the fact he worked to undermine Sparta while in our AA, do you really want to talk about making alliances disband? I'm not sure you want to go there.

What's your point? GtG just admitted to actively working to undermine/destroy Q while Sparta was still a member of Q. The word honor is the last word that could ever be used to describe Sparta.

[Francesca]

Ah dammit Fran, sometimes you make it so hard to hate you.

To many of the Karma types in this thread:

"But we're only doing SOME of the things they did that we hated! And we're only doing it to SOME of them!" Lol.

-Bama

Hate me? My good man, whyever would you want to do that?

[Aya Reiko]

This is more than apt card for this situation...

JUSTICE--

• JUSTICE
  
• RESPONSIBILITY
  
• DECISION
  
• CAUSE AND EFFECT
  

Now Karma has to make a choice. In one hand, more war reps than anyone has ever seen. In the other, nothing. There is no middle ground anymore. Karma, in their pursuit of "Justice", have been reduced to a binary choice, and the responsibility of that decision is theirs alone. Do they choose peace, and get their spoils of war? Or do they choose war, and get nothing?

Bear in mind, Karma, that it has become clear that some powers in your coalition have concluded that others have lost sight of what karma means. There certainly will be an effect to the decision you make.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

GtG just admitted to actively working to undermine/destroy Q while Sparta was still a member of Q.

lolwut?

[BamaBuc]

And you're in an alliance that has done it to all of them. If you truly hated all those kinds of terms why the hell did you fight for tpf and then later join them? Shut up, you're only preaching this argument now because it's convenient for you, nothing more.

If I were the type of guy to hold a grudge over something someone did a year ago under different leadership, you might have a point. I'm not, and you don't.

If I gave a damn about convenience I wouldn't be here.

-Bama

[Earogema]

I don't really consider striking back at those they feel to have wronged them to be "reverting to their old ways." At least, not the old ways which everyone is up in arms about. It's a natural thing for a proud alliance to do, and hardly unique to the NPO. Whether or not they will "change" I can't really say. I would guess they would still be proud and a bit $@y or arrogant, but that's perfectly fine with me. I would guess that they would retain some of their tendency for antagonism, but that is also perfectly fine with me, and should be with most everyone else. I'm not sure if you want to make them "change" or if you just want to neuter them.

So then, I should just keep them down.

Seriously, if they don't want ot accept peace terms, and if they're going to strike at me if I let them go, it makes most sense to prevent them from ever striking at me until they are never going to be a threat again. It's what NPO did with FAN, and hey, it worked.

If the NPO wants to get out of this, it has to either be made to not be able to launch attacks on anyone for a bit. It's either going to be at war for a while, or have a large about terms to follow. It won't cripple them to death, they'll eventually bounce back, as most alliances do, but they're going to have to be weakened.

I'm just saying what Karma's thoughts are btw. I'd have given them white peace by now. (But tbh, it's really tempting to keep them at war for as long as FAN was, then declare on them in the middle of their terms for a very slight violation, just like they did to FAN.)

[Caliph]

What's your point? GtG just admitted to actively working to undermine/destroy Q while Sparta was still a member of Q. The word honor is the last word that could ever be used to describe Sparta.

No. He admitted to planning a defensive war, what do to if NPO attacked an ally. They actively planned a defensive war, and developed a defensive strategy aimed at protecting their own interests in the case that NPO and other NPO allies partook in an offense war against one of their allies.

This war never would have started if NPO hadn't attack OV, who was a fairly well connected alliance. Remember, NPO started this war, the others jumped in to defend a treaty partner from the face of Pacifican agression.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Caliph

[Matthew Conrad]

What's your point? GtG just admitted to actively working to undermine/destroy Q while Sparta was still a member of Q. The word honor is the last word that could ever be used to describe Sparta.

Please find that quote. I don't recall GtG ever saying he was actively undermining Q. Being disparaged is not the same thing.

Maybe you could get paranoid about it. Kind of like when you said we were going to declare on you.

[Israfeel]

I guess you're defending what hegemony has done to everyone else in the past then, huh? If they didn't care, they could've given terms like that to tons more alliances with plenty of justification to back it up. You're grasping for straws, well really just one.

I must have struck a cord. The ridiculous claims have begun. No, I don't care what Heg has done in the past but one of the tenants of logic is that two wrongs do not make a right.

And its quite obvious what happened, to be able to sustain an eternal war, to have the threat of eternal war, they needed to reduce the number of nations they would be holding out against. The lower profile alliances and those that attempted to surrender earlier got it easier.

The point here is clear.

Echelon an alliance that had done nothing except defend an ally as the treaty asked, was forced by circumstances to remain this long in the war, was given some of the harshest terms ever witnessed. Reduced to a tech farm and humiliated by terms that demand they remain cute, the fate of this alliance demonstrates it is irrelevent what the NPO has done in the past. Karma is out to flex its muscles, it will plunder and pillage regardless.

[WarriorConcept]

If I were the type of guy to hold a grudge over something someone did a year ago under different leadership, you might have a point. I'm not, and you don't.

If I gave a damn about convenience I wouldn't be here.

-Bama

You throw away the argument by labeling it a "grudge." The point still stands that your new moral outrage that you've deemed fit to start spewing once you've joined TPF was never present in your nature before this war. If you've honestly held these types of feeling forever and your moral compass didn't just randomly change, I wonder where you've been these past few years fighting for those "SOME ALLIANCES."