Poaching from our ranks- NSO

[Drostan]

That's not true. This was discussed privately two nights ago, with TDO included.

I am just saying that these logs don't make NSO look overly cooperative with initiating these talks:

[23:06] <Warbuck[TDO]> -Doppelganger, New Sith Order
[23:07] <TehChron> ...
[23:07] <TehChron> Well damn
[23:07] <TehChron> I cant overrule doppelganger
[23:08] <Warbuck[TDO]> The question is whether or not this was from doppelganger, or if Viktor is trying to stir some !@#$ up
[23:08] <TehChron> If he sent it, its NSO policy then.
[23:08] <TehChron> Ah...
[23:08] <TehChron> Its pretty well written
[23:08] <TehChron> I wouldnt be surprised if he or someone else of that level had written it
[23:09] <Warbuck[TDO]> Well, could you do me the favor of confirming whether or not this is in fact from Doppelganger?
[23:10] <Warbuck[TDO]> is he currently around- I see him in the room
[23:10] <TehChron> Just did, and it seems to be



QUOTE 
[23:19] <TehChron> Ah, speaking of Ivan...you likely wont be able to find him on irc with any convenience
[23:19] <TehChron> He never joins any public rooms
[23:19] <TehChron> So going through me would likely be a more efficient method
[23:19] <Warbuck[TDO]> ok... I will contact you then directly
[23:20] <Warbuck[TDO]> thank you for your help



QUOTE 
02:52 Cheyenne I am a member of the Darth Council.
02:52 Heft I am a Sith Lord, Cheyenne is a Prophet
02:52 Heft Both of us are on the Darth Council
02:52 Sethb[OV] Ok
02:52 Heft Which is the body directly beneath ivan
02:53 Beauchamp|TDO I was, personally, hoping to speak to Ivan himself.



QUOTE 
02:57 Heft The messages in this instance were authorized
02:57 Roo[GOP] So you're asserting that they were, indeed, authorized acts of aggression?
02:57 shaneprice[GGA] And why would the NSO authorize such a message?
02:58 Heft THey were an attempt to inform nations of some of the choices they may have beyond simple neutrality
02:58 shaneprice[GGA] The recruitment messages were directed towards sovereign alliances...
02:58 RudeBoy well, evidently you're the only ones to perceive it that way
02:58 Heft Neutral alliances
02:59 Roo[GOP] that doesn't address the fact that poaching allied nations is an act of aggression
02:59 RudeBoy i'm quite positive they know there's more to CN then neutrality
02:59 RudeBoy hell, there's a big "declare war" button
02:59 RudeBoy there's a war option
02:59 Heft Yes, well, that would be correct, RudeBoy
02:59 RudeBoy most of the game revolves around building up military
02:59 shaneprice[GGA] They are still sovereign and entitled to self-defense.
02:59 Roo[GOP] Hell, I received a recruitment message and I'm the founder of the GOP
02:59 Heft We did not discriminate based upon position, no

That seems like a fairly earnest attempt to get in touch with NSO government to me. And it seems like they got a bit of a run-around. My point is that you cannot say that TDO did not try to negotiate with NSO's government on this issue.

[James Wilson]

It's too bad we don't qualify B)

Oh, no...after this douchbaggary I'd say you are the number 1 contender by a LONG SHOT...

[JayOvfEnnay]

So I haven't read the entire thread...has the apology demand accepted? If it hasn't till now, I'd be bit surprised if it came at all then. What cards does neutral menace has to play?

I'm enjoying the change from the peanut gallery

Apology demand accepted for TDO:

No.

What TDO can do about it:

Two options;

Absolutely nothing.

Attempt to fight a war against the entire Frostbite bloc.

You think people recruiting from you is a detrimental act? Imagine war.

[Griff]

Oh, no...after this douchbaggary I'd say you are the number 1 contender by a LONG SHOT...

That sounds like opinion rather than fact. Maybe for YOUR asshat awards...

[Proxian Empire]

I'm enjoying this little round of words being placed in the mouths of Frostbite leadership.

[Venom4Viper]

:o :o :o Edited July 3, 2009 by Venom4Viper

[Heracles the Great]

We don't do it. That should give you a clue about where my alliance stands on the issue. I personally don't see it as a reason to go to war.

Not doing it doesn't mean you do or do not condone it. And if it's not an aggressive attack against the sovereignty of an alliance then what do you consider it to be? And if you do it consider it to be an aggressive attack against the sovereignty of an alliance, how do you not see it as a reason to go to war?

[Drostan]

So, if this were to come to war, would FrostBite in fact weigh in against TDO?

I ask this for clarity, I am not implying that they will.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Drostan

[enderland]

So, if this were to come to war, would FrostBite in fact weigh in against TDO?

I ask this for clarity, I am not implying that they will.

Grub made a post earlier that seemed to imply the only way to find out NpO's involvement in a war here would be to actually DoW NSO

[omfghi2u2]

I'm wondering why everyone who thinks this is a-ok is ignoring the fact that the Sith have already apologised for the same message sent to another alliance. If the Sith have such conviction that they have done nothing wrong, why did they respond to one demand for a public apology so drastically different to another by, you know, apologising publicly? Something doesn't click, here.

Well, at least this post was ignored.

-omfg

[Il Terra Di Agea]

Oh, well done NSO, well done. Can I nominate you guys for the "Asshats of the Year award"?

I at least, would wear that badge with pride.

[Doitzel]

Well, at least this post was ignored.

-omfg

Well, of course. What did you expect, the truth?

[uaciaut]

Someone is rushing things too much really. Oh well.

[James Wilson]

That sounds like opinion rather than fact. Maybe for YOUR asshat awards...

Really? I'd say quite a few people would agree with me...

[New Frontier]

I am just saying that these logs don't make NSO look overly cooperative with initiating these talks:

[23:06] <Warbuck[TDO]> -Doppelganger, New Sith Order
[23:07] <TehChron> ...
[23:07] <TehChron> Well damn
[23:07] <TehChron> I cant overrule doppelganger
[23:08] <Warbuck[TDO]> The question is whether or not this was from doppelganger, or if Viktor is trying to stir some !@#$ up
[23:08] <TehChron> If he sent it, its NSO policy then.
[23:08] <TehChron> Ah...
[23:08] <TehChron> Its pretty well written
[23:08] <TehChron> I wouldnt be surprised if he or someone else of that level had written it
[23:09] <Warbuck[TDO]> Well, could you do me the favor of confirming whether or not this is in fact from Doppelganger?
[23:10] <Warbuck[TDO]> is he currently around- I see him in the room
[23:10] <TehChron> Just did, and it seems to be



QUOTE 
[23:19] <TehChron> Ah, speaking of Ivan...you likely wont be able to find him on irc with any convenience
[23:19] <TehChron> He never joins any public rooms
[23:19] <TehChron> So going through me would likely be a more efficient method
[23:19] <Warbuck[TDO]> ok... I will contact you then directly
[23:20] <Warbuck[TDO]> thank you for your help



QUOTE 
02:52 Cheyenne I am a member of the Darth Council.
02:52 Heft I am a Sith Lord, Cheyenne is a Prophet
02:52 Heft Both of us are on the Darth Council
02:52 Sethb[OV] Ok
02:52 Heft Which is the body directly beneath ivan
02:53 Beauchamp|TDO I was, personally, hoping to speak to Ivan himself.



QUOTE 
02:57 Heft The messages in this instance were authorized
02:57 Roo[GOP] So you're asserting that they were, indeed, authorized acts of aggression?
02:57 shaneprice[GGA] And why would the NSO authorize such a message?
02:58 Heft THey were an attempt to inform nations of some of the choices they may have beyond simple neutrality
02:58 shaneprice[GGA] The recruitment messages were directed towards sovereign alliances...
02:58 RudeBoy well, evidently you're the only ones to perceive it that way
02:58 Heft Neutral alliances
02:59 Roo[GOP] that doesn't address the fact that poaching allied nations is an act of aggression
02:59 RudeBoy i'm quite positive they know there's more to CN then neutrality
02:59 RudeBoy hell, there's a big "declare war" button
02:59 RudeBoy there's a war option
02:59 Heft Yes, well, that would be correct, RudeBoy
02:59 RudeBoy most of the game revolves around building up military
02:59 shaneprice[GGA] They are still sovereign and entitled to self-defense.
02:59 Roo[GOP] Hell, I received a recruitment message and I'm the founder of the GOP
02:59 Heft We did not discriminate based upon position, no

That seems like a fairly earnest attempt to get in touch with NSO government to me. And it seems like they got a bit of a run-around. My point is that you cannot say that TDO did not try to negotiate with NSO's government on this issue.

I'd like to point out that Chron isn't actually a member of the Council and has no policy making power.

[flak attack]

What cards does neutral menace has to play?

From the look of things, their cards seem to be most of the aqua team right now.

Grub made a post earlier that seemed to imply the only way to find out NpO's involvement in a war here would be to actually DoW NSO

He does like to leave us hanging, doesn't he?

[Ivan Moldavi]

Wow, 25 pages and I haven't even posted yet. Funny.

Well, I can't be bothered to read 25 pages over this. It isn't that important.

First, I authorized the message. Period. Me.

Second, I didn't actually expect anyone to come over from it so technically it would just be more of a stab at the alliances that perpetrate and support the Great Lie than poaching.

Third, I have never stated that alliances can not recruit from the NSO. Feel free.

Fourth, obviously this is being made into a bigger deal than is really warranted or justified. Poaching implies some form of proprietary position in regards to an alliance's membership. I believe that to be an erroneous assumption. Nations volunteer to join an alliance. Once they join they voluntarily agree to follow certain rules or chains of command but they are never beholden to that alliance beyond their willingness to reside there. If they choose to listen to some rambling commentary via a Private Message sent to their nation then that is their right and they are wholly capable of "jumping ship" at any time they wish.

Those that go on and on about this being an attack on their sovereignty are really reaching.

[Griff]

Really? I'd say quite a few people would agree with me...

I don't see anyone talking about asshat awards

Edited July 3, 2009 by Griff

[jesterxo]

I'd like to point out that Chron isn't actually a member of the Council and has no policy making power.

And when we go to your chan and thats what we hear, how are we supposed to know that? And he isn't making a power move, he is just assisting in confusing us and throwing up smoke screens.

[Drostan]

I'd like to point out that Chron isn't actually a member of the Council and has no policy making power.

That's fair but it's a bit distressing that someone with no executive power would take it upon himself to be the mediator between the alliance's leader and another alliance's disgruntled leader in such a situation.

I am not saying that NSO was privately mean and snarky as I have no access to those records. I am simply stating that it looks to me like TDO attempted to take this issue up with NSO's government and were led astray by perhaps people who were not in a position to field TDO's inquiries.

[Ricardo]

o/ the neutral menace, hope they DO something about it.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Ricardo

[Lord Brendan]

My favorite part in all this is how all the NSO members are wearing the TDO tag while mocking TDO.

[GulagArchipelago]

Wow, 25 pages and I haven't even posted yet. Funny.

Well, I can't be bothered to read 25 pages over this. It isn't that important.

First, I authorized the message. Period. Me.

Second, I didn't actually expect anyone to come over from it so technically it would just be more of a stab at the alliances that perpetrate and support the Great Lie than poaching.

Third, I have never stated that alliances can not recruit from the NSO. Feel free.

Fourth, obviously this is being made into a bigger deal than is really warranted or justified. Poaching implies some form of proprietary position in regards to an alliance's membership. I believe that to be an erroneous assumption. Nations volunteer to join an alliance. Once they join they voluntarily agree to follow certain rules or chains of command but they are never beholden to that alliance beyond their willingness to reside there. If they choose to listen to some rambling commentary via a Private Message sent to their nation then that is their right and they are wholly capable of "jumping ship" at any time they wish.

Those that go on and on about this being an attack on their sovereignty are really reaching.

The New Moldavi Doctrine? Poaching being Legalized?!?

[Electron Sponge]

I am just saying that these logs don't make NSO look overly cooperative with initiating these talks:

<snip>

That seems like a fairly earnest attempt to get in touch with NSO government to me. And it seems like they got a bit of a run-around. My point is that you cannot say that TDO did not try to negotiate with NSO's government on this issue.

It looks like their fairly earnest attempt succeeded. Who do you think they were talking to in the private talks? lol TDO wanted to talk directly to Moldavi, which really isn't something that happens often as he doesn't use that medium of communication as regularly as some people. He wasn't available so they got the highest ranking people that were around. I'm not sure why that's a problem.

I never said TDO didn't try to negotiate - what I am saying is that TDO is mischaracterizing NSO's actions in the talks as hostile and disrespectful, and are blatantly lying about NSO admitting that this was some sort of act of aggression.

So as not to put too fine a point on this, it seems that TDO is bent out of shape because GOP got an apology and they didn't. It seem to be less about something the Sith did and more "what about me?"

[WcaesarD]

The way I see it, the NSO messages were clearly not jokes, or they wouldn't have been sent to the alliances in the game LEAST likely to respond. They most certainly look like an agressive act of war to me, and I would repond accordingly and immediately. I don't mean I would declare war, because that would be premature. But I would open talks between the alliance leaders in real-time. There is no excuse for this.