An Open Letter to the NPO

[Brotherington]

BAPS never signed an MDP with NPO, or do I need to remind you of The Sectumsempra Treaty?

Ah yes, I beleive that was our first NAP.

[Haflinger]

you srs?

His claim was not that MK had done a lot to support NPO, but that you'd done more to support them than BAPS had. To which he supplied the supporting evidence that there'd never been a BAPS-NPO treaty. MK's had two

[Brotherington]

One was signed to stop them attacking us in the UjW, and the second was signed to get our nuclear first strike policy. Neither contributed to the NPOs strangle-hold on the game.

[MagicalTrevor]

His claim was not that MK had done a lot to support NPO, but that you'd done more to support them than BAPS had. To which he supplied the supporting evidence that there'd never been a BAPS-NPO treaty. MK's had two

I dont see how having signed two treaties with them, that were never even used, has a lot to do with supporting them, added to the fact after signing both we went to war with their close allies pretty soon after.

The fact NPO hunted us for near 2 years kind of shows that we did a poor job of 'supporting' them, and makes all points trying to claim MK have ever supported NPO null.

[Lord of Destruction]

His claim was not that MK had done a lot to support NPO, but that you'd done more to support them than BAPS had. To which he supplied the supporting evidence that there'd never been a BAPS-NPO treaty. MK's had two

One was signed because GOONS basically forced NPO to sign it, and the other was a terrible attempt at trying to get closer to MK as a whole (mainly the gov) without trying to get the basic membership of both alliances closer beforehand. Neither one was a real treaty.

[Haflinger]

I would agree with LoD's analysis.

[Lord of Destruction]

I would agree with LoD's analysis.

So would I

[Homura]

Cortath, while you may be saddened that I am acting the way I am, you wouldn't be disappointed (well, as disappointed) with me if only you knew that I don't hate the Order, and that I'm actually trying to help it. Whether you choose to believe me or not is up to you.

I've been trying to help the Order for a long time. I even offered to join Pacifica for the war. But the stubborn pride of certain individuals has always prevailed in this regard. I have a hard time believing they care about the help you'd offer.

[HeinousOne]

I'll make three points here.

1) It's hard as hell to compromise with the NPO front.

2) There have been terms suggested to the NPO front that are nearly as harsh as the 2 weeks of war, but that do not include war. These suggestions have gotten turned down once and again due to paranoia and those who've suggested them have been wildly accused as NPO supporters, completely ignoring their history.

3) The NPO front is the one stonewalling the peace process out of pride. They say that they see removing the 2 weeks of war, or even lowering it, as losing, seeing as they think NPO will once again try to push it's luck to get it entirely removed. They want to keep the 2 weeks of war, or put something even more harsh into it. It's absolutely ridiculous.

This war just needs to be over.

It is really now just a battle of ego's and ideologies. The actual war is already over.

You know Typo is not government and has not had any part in the decision making process, hes simply stating his opinion...so why would you categorize like that?

Listen, I know you want this process to be public so you may mark it with your stamp of approval. Hell, I'm all for getting out of the backrooms and having the world be a little more transparent on these forums...in certain cases. Yet, this instance is not one of those cases, this process must be private. The discussions that those of us on the NPO front have on terms and the various avenues we may or may not contemplate will not be stated here on the forums, plain and simple. For that, I'm sorry, but its just a fact of life at this point in time.

Now I ask you kindly to stop with the unwarranted criticism and hateful talk. Instead of taking what people who have no hand in the process say as fact and then stereotyping all 18 alliances on the NPO front on the post of a non government member, reserve your judgment till you see a final outcome. Before you "mark VE down", or any other alliance for that matter, down in your assorted columns, think what it is that your basing your judgment upon. Fact? Certainly not, as your not in the room with us. Speculation? More or less.

Clearly your extremely concerned about this issue, and I sympathize with that, but there comes a point where concern crosses the line into insults.

Alright, I can respect that. To be truthful about what I said about VE, it was actually meant to spur from you an answer on this as we have also had discussions at the same period of time and I know you are government while he is not. I more then realize he is much like myself in that he is an individual member here voicing his opinion and in a situation like this people are going to have varied individual opinions within each alliance.

For what its worth I am quite aware that not all 18 alliances are in agreement on how to go forward and for what I have been able to come across it is actually a very small number of them that are holding on to the harshest term because they think that no other peace terms can be pressed forward if they don't agree. There will come a time when the coalition will collapse and it will become various factions working out their own peace terms with the NPO. Just a matter of time really.

[Waterana]

90% of the effort in this war was focused upon keeping nations from hitting peace mode. I mean sure, you were planning ahead for a loss in a way, but your nations, on the whole, jumping every chance they got is not a matter that can be disputed.

Well, you did a lousy job of keeping nations from hitting peace, and now expect us to hand them over and allow you to beat down not only our banks but those you stuffed up staggers on. Dream on. You aren't getting them.

lol

First of all, no nations cycle in and out of peace mode in any range that matters, sorry. Your talking one of the people who have been literally keeping tract of peace mode nations and coordinating attacks on those in war mode sense the first night, so believe you me that I know exactly what the facts are here. And no, I don't remember a blitz, I remember a few handful's of nations causing us to loose .2ish score then getting systematically stomped the following days and we lost our sanction a week later to TDO's growth...

Not anymore they aren't, because the majority in peace mode now are banks and supposed to be there. You've knocked the others down. I was waiting for the 'it wasn't you, it was *insert excuse here* in a lame attempt to not give us credit for VE's fall out of sanction. RoK did the same. Give it up. We, the entire alliance, concentrated attacks on VE and once you were beaten down enough, we moved onto RoK. I'm not going to say nothing else had an effect, but to try to state our attack focus on each of one you had no effect just makes you look silly.

The term was included because we wanted to actully fight this war and finish it. It is as simple as that and with nothing else behind it. Also, it was more the multitude at which you all droped into peace more then stagger f'ups, we actully thoguht you were going to fight this war untill we realized that you all were not conducting any offensive whatsoever and dropping into peace mode insted. Furthermore, please stop implying that our aim is to get you to disband because we are scared of you attacking us in the future. It may come as a shock, but I cant really say anyone has an overwhelming fear of Pacifica at this point in time, and we have stated time and time again that disbandment is not a goal nor is eternal war. Get off it. As for your bankers, are you implying you have 235 of them? Come on now. For the record though, I'm not fixated on peace mode nations...this thread is.

It's safe to say that our pride is fine and not a factor here, can you say the same?

We have fought the war. Are still fighting it in fact. Our massive AS loss and ruined now small ex large nations are proof of that. Just because your blood lust and pride won't be saited until you've ZIed the entire alliance doesn't mean we haven't fought the war. Don't know where you've been, but the main reason we've been hearing all over these forums for the extra war is fear. If we aren't totally crushed, we'll rebuild and 'come kill you all' like some demented magic phoenix. Of course the alliances against us want us gone. It is they only way you'll ever feel safe and be able to put the incontinence pads away.

Pacifica doesn't have a monopoly on pride, or arrogance for that matter. The fact our opponents refuse to give an inch on the terms, despite constantly bleating about how much they want peace, shows that in spades.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Waterana

[KinKiac]

(sigh) lol

I dont even have the energy to read these silly arguments that I have seen so far from NPO members. At this point Im not going to reaed more than the first few pages of this thread as I have seen enough from just that.

NPO,

Stop saying the reps will cripple you. You offered to pay more, so you can obviously afford them as they are.

Stop saying Karma is as bad as you. You've handed out worse.

Stop saying Karma is going to use the terms to re-declare. That is what you would do. Its called projection.

Stop saying that 3 months of war has wasted away your warchests. We've seen your top 50, and we know that many have 1-2 billion in reserve.

Stop saying that no one spoke up until recently and therefore didnt care. No one spoke up for fear of getting curbstomped, heck I didnt even post on OWF until recently due to my opinionated and argumentative nature. Most of the time if a hot topic came up we would see many posts from Gov members saying "no one under XXX rank can post in this thread" YOU were the reason for such posts.

Stop playing the victim. You started this war.

Stop trying to tell us that 2 weeks of war would ZI your top 50 and decimate their warchests. You turtle, you defend. Its cheap to do so and would barely touch a 1 billion dollar warchest.

Stop neglecting to mention in your arguments the fact that the reps are going to be lowered once the war period is over "based on your ability to pay." If you cant afford it they will be lowered. As it stands right now, you are capable of paying MORE than what is asked and have offered such.

Stop trying to get out of having your banks fight in this war. Either they fight and end this for the rest of you, or your lower nations keep getting hit and as such are prevented from rebuilding, just so your banks can keep their infra and tech.

Stop trying to say that for you friends> infra, which is why you keep fighting. If friends are greater than infra then get your banks out of peace mode. By keeping your banks in PM you are effectively stating(through actions) that their infra is more important than allowing the rest of Pacifica to start rebuilding.

And, finally, Stop saying that if you were to follow the terms you would be left defenseless and open to attack. You already ARE defenseless AND open to attack. It doesnt get any worse.

[Il Impero Romano]

Well, you did a lousy job of keeping nations from hitting peace, and now expect us to hand them over and allow you to beat down not only our banks but those you stuffed up staggers on. Dream on. You aren't getting them.

Your alliance had around 90 score at the start of this war, you now have around 20.

Need I say more?

Not anymore they aren't, because the majority in peace mode now are banks and supposed to be there. You've knocked the others down. I was waiting for the 'it wasn't you, it was *insert excuse here* in a lame attempt to not give us credit for VE's fall out of sanction. RoK did the same. Give it up. We, the entire alliance, concentrated attacks on VE and once you were beaten down enough, we moved onto RoK. I'm not going to say nothing else had an effect, but to try to state our attack focus on each of one you had no effect just makes you look silly.

I admitted your one offensive of the war had an effect of .2, however to be realistic it did not do much beyond that, check back on the sanction race thread if you need proof. Also, in our fully engaged war on your alliance and defensively against MCXA as well, we only managed to loose 9 (non inflated) score, so why would you consider us sufficiently "beat down", as you put it, and move on to Rok? You should have stuck around longer, it would have been fun.

We have fought the war. Are still fighting it in fact. Our massive AS loss and ruined now small ex large nations are proof of that. Just because your blood lust and pride won't be saited until you've ZIed the entire alliance doesn't mean we haven't fought the war. Don't know where you've been, but the main reason we've been hearing all over these forums for the extra war is fear. If we aren't totally crushed, we'll rebuild and 'come kill you all' like some demented magic phoenix. Of course the alliances against us want us gone. It is they only way you'll ever feel safe and be able to put the incontinence pads away.

Right now, your speaking to me, and I am telling you that while many people express a fear of you coming back to "ruin the game" or whatnot; I do not and I will make no decisions based on the presumed fears of others. More then that, I am quite confidant my peers don't fear you as well. Terms will not be based on a hypothetical fear, they will be based on your alliance and this war alone.

Odd picture that has something to do with Bart Simpson and GW1

Pacifica doesn't have a monopoly on pride, or arrogance for that matter. The fact our opponents refuse to give an inch on the terms, despite constantly bleating about how much they want peace, shows that in spades.

I have not seen you at negotiations, nor have I seen you in any logs of communications between those on our front and those in Pacifica, so are you absolutely, 100%, without question, sure of that?

Oh, for the record I was not here for GW1, 2, or 3, and your posts contradict your comment on arrogance.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[Cortath]

(sigh) lol

I dont even have the energy to read these silly arguments that I have seen so far from NPO members. At this point Im not going to reaed more than the first few pages of this thread as I have seen enough from just that.

NPO

Kiniac:

Stop saying the reps will cripple you. You offered to pay more, so you can obviously afford them as they are.

We offered to pay more in exchange for removing the terms that will be cripple us. We cannot pay the reparations with those restrictive terms.

Stop saying Karma is as bad as you. You've handed out worse.

We have said no such thing.

Stop saying Karma is going to use the terms to re-declare. That is what you would do. Its called projection.

If those against us would not use the terms to re-declare, then there is no reasons for terms whose obvious remedy, if violated, would be a re-declaration. If Karma does not intend to enforce those terms, they should not have them.

Stop saying that 3 months of war has wasted away your warchests. We've seen your top 50, and we know that many have 1-2 billion in reserve.

Talk is cheap.

Stop saying that no one spoke up until recently and therefore didnt care. No one spoke up for fear of getting curbstomped, heck I didnt even post on OWF until recently due to my opinionated and argumentative nature. Most of the time if a hot topic came up we would see many posts from Gov members saying "no one under XXX rank can post in this thread" YOU were the reason for such posts.

I don't believe we have said that.

[Cortath]

Stop playing the victim. You started this war.

I don't believe we have done that.

Stop trying to tell us that 2 weeks of war would ZI your top 50 and decimate their warchests. You turtle, you defend. Its cheap to do so and would barely touch a 1 billion dollar warchest.

No, it's not, and this post, like your others that mention economics, neglect to analyze the totality of our economic circumstances. Please read the threads in my signature to gain a more complete understanding of the economics involved.

Stop neglecting to mention in your arguments the fact that the reps are going to be lowered once the war period is over "based on your ability to pay." If you cant afford it they will be lowered. As it stands right now, you are capable of paying MORE than what is asked and have offered such.

I think it's clear that my alliance and the 18 against us have different understandings of our "ability to pay." Given that the alliances against us have not told us, publicly or privately, how such an "ability to pay" will be determined, I do not doubt that every penny outlined in the terms and every unit of tech will be demanded.

Stop trying to get out of having your banks fight in this war. Either they fight and end this for the rest of you, or your lower nations keep getting hit and as such are prevented from rebuilding, just so your banks can keep their infra and tech.

I think your understanding of how rebuilding works is incomplete. See signatore threads.

Stop trying to say that for you friends> infra, which is why you keep fighting. If friends are greater than infra then get your banks out of peace mode. By keeping your banks in PM you are effectively stating(through actions) that their infra is more important than allowing the rest of Pacifica to start rebuilding.

I think your understanding of how rebuilding works is incomplete. See signature threads.

And, finally, Stop saying that if you were to follow the terms you would be left defenseless and open to attack. You already ARE defenseless AND open to attack. It doesnt get any worse.

Yes, it does. Use your imagination.

[Walt Schmidt]

NPO, Stop saying...

I am continually amazed at how far off the mark so many can be while making statements about others.

Now where's a good Pee Wee Herman quote when... ah yes:

"I know you are but what am I?"

[TypoNinja]

I am continually amazed at how far off the mark so many can be while making statements about others.

Now where's a good Pee Wee Herman quote when... ah yes:

"I know you are but what am I?"

If the best you can do is "no u!" Do your alliance a favour and let somebody a little bit more coherent do the talking.

[Waterana]

Your alliance had around 90 score at the start of this war, you now have around 20.

Need I say more?

Yes, because I can't figure out how showing how much strength we've lost in this war and how far our alliance has fallen backs up your argument. Unless of course, you're simply backing up my assertion that for you losing so much already isn't enough and you're determined to destroy what little is left.

I admitted your one offensive of the war had an effect of .2, however to be realistic it did not do much beyond that, check back on the sanction race thread if you need proof. Also, in our fully engaged war on your alliance and defensively against MCXA as well, we only managed to loose 9 (non inflated) score, so why would you consider us sufficiently "beat down", as you put it, and move on to Rok? You should have stuck around longer, it would have been fun.

Nice to know our nukes don't do barely any damage. You were well out of sanction. Why waste more resources on VE, when we had such a smorgasbord of enemies to choose from who had more tech and money.

Right now, your speaking to me, and I am telling you that while many people express a fear of you coming back to "ruin the game" or whatnot; I do not and I will make no decisions based on the presumed fears of others. More then that, I am quite confidant my peers don't fear you as well. Terms will not be based on a hypothetical fear, they will be based on your alliance and this war alone.

Could have fooled me. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't trust any of you or believe a word any of you say. Everything on this forum has shown the terms are out of fear, a conversation in IRC query with a Spartan confirmed it is fear. You don't agree, well, you're the first and only person to say that.

I have not seen you at negotiations, nor have I seen you in any logs of communications between those on our front and those in Pacifica, so are you absolutely, 100%, without question, sure of that?

Oh, for the record I was not here for GW1, 2, or 3, and your posts contradict your comment on arrogance.

I'm not involved in the negotiations, and aren't in NPO government, but I'm sure you already know that. The fact our enemies are dragging this war out by insisting on keeping a term we will never accept, and which they know damm well we'll never accept, and which I'm damm sure they knew writing up the terms we'd never accept, tells me yes, the aim of this is eternal war.

If you reread what I said on arrogance and pride, I said Pacifica didn't have the monopoly on it. That means we aren't the only ones who display it.

[kingzog]

The fact our enemies are dragging this war out by insisting on keeping a term we will never accept, and which they know damm well we'll never accept, and which I'm damm sure they knew writing up the terms we'd never accept, tells me yes, the aim of this is eternal war.

OK, I've had enough of this line.

Let's assume it's true.

So what? You guys seem to love eternal war when you're the ones with the advantage.

Suck it up and come back in a year or so when people who aren't already your buddies start making adorable little "Free NPO" graphics. Hell, I'll even sport one myself.

Until then, nobody cares.

[Tromp]

Could have fooled me. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't trust any of you or believe a word any of you say. Everything on this forum has shown the terms are out of fear, a conversation in IRC query with a Spartan confirmed it is fear. You don't agree, well, you're the first and only person to say that.

Oh my, I'm full of fear! Yes Ma'am, I am.

...

No, not really.

And you do understand that this world is meant to be competitive? To go to war with each other?

The only thing that kept people from competing was a stagnant Hegemonic system, in which only the top dog had the privilege of going to war and getting away with everything.

I consider the defeat of the Hegemonic structure one of the most important achievements of this war.

The very reason you think we're feared is because you think we'll establish the same structure as former Hegemony did. And ofcourse, that would be a Hegemony in which for once, the NPO wouldn't have the upper hand. That terrifies you, doesn't it?

But I can assure you, this isn't going to happen. In fact, I don't want it to happen.

[Lord of Destruction]

I've been trying to help the Order for a long time. I even offered to join Pacifica for the war. But the stubborn pride of certain individuals has always prevailed in this regard. I have a hard time believing they care about the help you'd offer.

That I would offer? I'm not going to bother offering, nor will I say "I would if you let me". I already have tried to help, albeit in ways many of them are unaware of.

It is really now just a battle of ego's and ideologies. The actual war is already over.

I'm quite aware of that, HeinousOne.

[Waterana]

Oh my, I'm full of fear! Yes Ma'am, I am.

...

No, not really.

And you do understand that this world is meant to be competitive? To go to war with each other?

The only thing that kept people from competing was a stagnant Hegemonic system, in which only the top dog had the privilege of going to war and getting away with everything.

I consider the defeat of the Hegemonic structure one of the most important achievements of this war.

The very reason you think we're feared is because you think we'll establish the same structure as former Hegemony did. And ofcourse, that would be a Hegemony in which for once, the NPO wouldn't have the upper hand. That terrifies you, doesn't it?

But I can assure you, this isn't going to happen. In fact, I don't want it to happen.

No, it's because how many people from the alliances fighting us have been on this forum saying so. Nothing more or less. We are defeated and the hegemony is gone, so if that is all your side wanted, why such a harsh term as more war after peace? Why not just end it now with terms that give you the reps ect your side want, but let us survive as a viable alliance? Surely you can see why we believe what we do about the fear and eternal war. The terms point straight to that.

[neneko]

I don't believe we have done that.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54735

I could have sworn that was a DoW. Denial is fun.

[Cortath]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54735

I could have sworn that was a DoW. Denial is fun.

That statement was in response to the first sentence of the quote. Please read the context.

[neneko]

That statement was in response to the first sentence of the quote. Please read the context.

My appologies. The bolding confused me.

[Cortath]

My appologies. The bolding confused me.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The bolding was not mine.