Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Weirdgus]

Sir, reading comprehension FTW.

I, and others are referring to NPO nations that have been in peace mode since the beginning of the war.

Yeah right so there isn't a certain Vanguard leader yelling "a large portion of the NPO's nations that have been at war since April still have up to half a billion left in WC and they can easily rebuild up to 4k infra and bank" ... You're right, I must have seen that in an alternate universe or something.

[Vandal]

Happy to see this, NPO has to be further tech raided otherwise it was all for nothing.

Fixed that for you.

I thought the Karma creed was "change" but as far as I can see the only thing that has changed are the faces.

The whole 2 Weeks of War deal is rather lame. Everyone is yelling that NPO needs to be knocked down else they will be a threat again in the future. Deja Vu. Same slogan, different alliance.

This war is more about getting 2 pounds of flesh than it is about justice. I'm not saying NPO doesn't deserve the backlash but some in Karma appear to be morphing into the monster it fought. I was hoping Karma could lead by example and rise above stating they would be a role model. But then again pigs fly don't they?

I for one welcome our new overlords. Now that Sponge has allied with MK, Hegemony v2.0 is well on its way to fruition.

Note: Not saying NPO doesn't deserve what they are getting. But stating you are only doing to them what they did to you doesn't make you any better.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Vandal

[Alterego]

Anyway, its been repeatedly stated the reps arent the problem its the Karma blood lust and desire to pound 90% of NPO for another 2 weeks before being allowed to surrender.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Alterego

[Haflinger]

Let me show you real math Trotskyrevenge. Cortath could not show us math that refuted our claims.

181 nations paying the reps.

2 slots each, 3 aid cycles per month.

3.258 billion per month, 54,000 tech per month

2.14 months to pay off money amont, 5.56 months to pay off tech amount

120 nations paying the reps.

2 slots each, 3 aid cycles per month.

2.16 billion per month, 36,000 tech per month

2.34 months to pay off money amount, 8.33 months to pay off tech amount

Even assuming that you would lose 1/3 of your nations that pay you could pay all of this off in a little over 8 months.

This petty PR stunt does nothing. The terms remain as they are, accept them when you are ready. The math does not lie.

It is impossible for them to have 181 nations paying the tech reps.

They currently have 178 nations with sufficient tech to qualify to pay the tech reps. Let's assume that after 2 weeks of war, some of those drop below 1K tech. Then ... we might not have 100% activity on the part of the rep payers.

Yeah.

300,000 tech and 8,000,000,000 in monetary aid is a lot. I don't understand the reasoning behind refusing that.

Indeed.

Specifically, it is 2,667 slots of cash, and 6,000 slots of tech.

Hypocrisy on so many levels on both sides in this thread.

Good job all around.

Polar paid 100k in tech.

Not to Pacifica.

MK paid another 90k and they were even smaller tech wise. Athens had to send out 14k of their 16k tech.

Both the MK and Athens were allowed to use tech sellers to send the tech.

Luckily 300k of 450k tech isnt even 3/4, which by proportion is much lighter than what was stolen from Athens and approved by your alliance.

mhawk is calculating in the value of the tech the cash reps would be able to buy. MK and Athens didn't have to send any cash.

An additional two weeks of war would likely not lessen the number of Pacificans with 1k technology or more to a number less than 70.

Likely not less than 70. Oh boy.

70 nations sending out 6,000 slots of foreign aid. Assuming 100% activity, that's roughly 15-18 cycles of aid, depending on how many have DRAs, and each nation has to send 4.3K technology.

A smart NPO member around 1.2K tech or so near the end of the war would be sending tech to non-NPO friends to save it; better to exit terms still with 900 tech or so than to have to send 4K tech or more. The NPO currently has 10 nations over 4.3K tech. If accepted, these terms would leave at most 7 nations in Pacifica over 1K technology.

Yeah that's pretty much unprecedented I think.

Perpetual war works for me

Yes, we know.

Despite the giant amounts of spin in the OP the basic point is right. Those reps are very high and the counter offer was good. Not accepting it tells me you most likely did not want peace going in. If that was the case you should not have offered peace.

I need to mention again that you're one of the best posters on these forums. I don't think I've done it recently.

Oh please get off the victim persona.... It has gotten old.

There is massive irony in you stating this. Worried that they're stealing your act?

[Teriethien]

I won't surrender individually because I won't leave the side of those who are not at fault for the policies most dislike.. which, as I said, is the majority of the NPO. Those policies are changing. If Karma can't accept their victory, I don't see how things will ever conclude.

You may not have personally created or directed the policy, but your (collective) presence within the NPO is what enabled such policies to be enforced. By flying that AA you are giving your leadership your tacit approval. You are always free to leave if you believed that you no longer want to associate yourself with Pacifica's evils.

[Pingu]

I'm going to be thoughtful and academic here for a minute and ask, do you know the reasoning behind these terms?

Studying CN history, there are two things that are working against NPO not getting lesser terms:

1) NPO, own up for a minute that some of the things you may have done in your dual impulse of self preservation and ensuring the world would dance to your tune has given the Karma alliances reason to dislike you. After all, a lot of them have served in alliances that were rolled at your behest, if not directly by you, and forced to serve Viceroy ships, humiliating disarms, eternal war, and yes, horrible reps. Do you feel any of the despair that you've forced on others?

I can admit revenge can be a petty impulse, but when you are brought low in what must seem to some as a poetic bit of irony, how can you cry unfair when it's seen as a matter of equity? I mean, GOONS was considered to be some meanies, but history bears out that they were rolled for LESS than this.

I'm not saying you should be an eternal tech farm or beaten down to the point where you must disband, but spending a nine months to a year in contemplation on how badly you've treated the rest of this world does in fact seem fair and reasonable. Now, the alliances that are fighting you must sorta decide how the best way to do that is, and expecting no reps or some very not large numbers just simply isn't going to happen. (If someone could show me the numbers of the reps and how'd that break down without the subject spin, I'd appreciate it.)

2) You lost Great War 1. The alliance called LUE let you off with a set of apologies and one resignation. You've done everything to crush anyone that disagrees with you while you were on top, including the alliances that represented the other side of the polarity multiple times.

Karma does not want there to be a Karma War 2, and so far, you don't respond well to kindness citing that example. You created this wheel of suffering, and no one wants you back to recreate it. And so far, you've done nothing that doesn't imply you won't hunt us all down singularly for your revenge. What kind of guarantee would you promise us? Your word? I'm not sure that's good currency in these parts. So far, we've seen the examples of what happens with people who make pacts with Pacifica if Pacifica decides later that it was no longer convenient.

It's not a matter of fear, even, it's that we don't trust you not abuse any chance we give you.

There's what you have to overcome. And the standard PR move of feeding us what we've always wanted to see and then playing how Karma's continuing to be the bad guy doesn't float with a lot of CN veterans around here. If you had just announced the dissolution of the doctrine, I think this would of had a different tone and continued to work things out behind the scenes with the folks you've surrendered to. Right now, it seems that you're more interested in scoring PR points at the expense of the Karma alliances, which doesn't befriend you to them. And you'll need the friends when this is over.

This is one of the more insightful contributions I have seen in this discussion. Point 2 is particularly noteworthy: the last time NPO was beaten, the victors were merciful, and the results were displeasing. It is simply prudence that dictates that the victors on this occasion show far less mercy. Those with long memories will not be swayed by propaganda now. And they will no doubt educate those who do not remember about the consequences of misplaced sympathy.

[Schattenmann]

The Order is an ever changing entity. I personally look forward to working with other red alliances in the future.

The NPO is so excited to work with new Red alliances that when I went into #NSA looking for gov to discuss some Red issues I was banned before I could get a word out.

Good luck tricking the world, NPO. They're stupid, so you've got a good chance.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Kindom of Goon]

the holdup is the 90% clause that means some indefinite period of war

reps themselves would be acceptable, but even the higher counteroffer has been refused

they are pretending to be a force for justice, and do not really want peace

If thats the only sticking point then I find it hard to believe it could not have been worked out after a little more refining privately, by making this announcement all you've achieved is making it harder to either side to back down.

And they're getting justice for themselves and their allies, some of whome ended up disbanding as a result of terms you handed out, so technically 'pretending to be a force for justice' would be giving you light terms.

[itastenice]

You have no reason to say the reps are too harsh, count them as reps for your last 3 years of tryanny.

You stated in the OP that you would pay more than asked if only you could hide your !@#$% nations in peace mode.

Man up and fight.

[Alterego]

This is one of the more insightful contributions I have seen in this discussion. Point 2 is particularly noteworthy: the last time NPO was beaten, the victors were merciful, and the results were displeasing. It is simply prudence that dictates that the victors on this occasion show far less mercy. Those with long memories will not be swayed by propaganda now. And they will no doubt educate those who do not remember about the consequences of misplaced sympathy.

Did they lose 75% of their NS, at least 25% of their members and almost all their allies last time?

[SpiderJerusalem]

This is a bloody farce. The terms are simply idiotic, since the greed have blinded you all.

If this was truly about not letting the NPO rebuild fast enough to come back and haunt you, you would have done this in an entirely different way. Examples on "better" terms than reps:

• The war will last in three more weeks. The NPO nations that are not out of peace mode by one week have to stay in peace mode for the duration of the terms.
  
• No aid slots are to be used at all.
  
• All NPO nations must maintain a full military force at all time. This includes all military improvements and a full force of military units. If a nation don't have enough improvement slots to maintain all military improvements, they must be built in this order: Guerilla camps, Shipyard, Drydock, Satellite, Missile Defence, Barracks, Naval academy, Naval construction yard.
  
• No NPO nations can own factories.
  
• No wonders are to be built for the duration of the terms
  
• No NPO nations can have full trade slots at any time
  
• No NPO nation can run for senate
  
• NPO have to give up the moldavi and the revenge doctrines
  
• NPO have to lift all sanctions towards dead or alive alliances. Clean the slate if you may.
  
• Any violation of these terms will result in the immediate attack upon the violator.
  
• If more than 1/5 of the alliance is in breach of these terms, it will be looked upon as an alliance wide violation and will result in a full scale war on the NPO
  
• The duration of these terms is 6 months
  

Maybe some minor reps as well, but nothing even remotely close to what has been offered.

I am disappointed over some of the alliances fighting NPO. You're better than this. You're smarter than this. Now bloody show it

[R&R-Viking]

I lost over 8k infra, 8k land, 2k tech and $450m in 2 weeks of war. Thats over $780m worth of infra, $60m and 60 slots for tech along with the $450 fighting. Including the land cost the war cost me over $1.5 billion. Big nations make big losses.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Alterego]

The NPO is so excited to work with new Red alliances that when I went into #NSA looking for gov to discuss some Red issues I was banned before I could get a word out.

Good luck tricking the world, NPO. They're stupid, so you've got a good chance.

So they didnt ban you for wanting to talk about red issues but because they just dont like you. Whats your point?

[boscher]

Fixed that for you.

1. Dont put words in my mouth.

2. How the hell do you techraid in a nuclear war?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

You can't befriend those that wish you an eternally abysmal fate unless they're willing to accept something a little less than that. 1.8 years in reparations is nuts.

[Alexander III]

o/ NPO!

The fact that they've held out against the PR and aggression of Karma for this long is astounding!

[Angrator]

So they didnt ban you for wanting to talk about red issues but because they just dont like you. Whats your point?

We acknowledge that we have been defeated in this war. We have been humbled and we have been forced to look at ourselves in a different light. Today we walk down a different path than that of yesterday; the rescinding of the Moldavi Doctrine is but one step in that direction

Doesn't really sound like change. Sounds more like more of the same.

[Schattenmann]

So they didnt ban you for wanting to talk about red issues but because they just dont like you. Whats your point?

Do GPA, GGA, OV, and VE all loooooove each other? Absolutely not. Do they work together? Absolutely.

The point is the OP and the "open arms" comments from NPO are a crock.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Schattenmann

[shahenshah]

I haven't read the thread after 500 pages...but what I figured to be one of the sticking points is that NPO wont go insta over 90% compliance, so there will be unspecified time between NPO peace nations getting pounded and actual 2 week timer starting.

Dont forget this post: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=60485

At least they recognized that pre-terms drama was not going to work. However, again, the fail to realize the same thing first time around with these terms.

[Teriethien]

You can't befriend those that wish you an eternally abysmal fate unless they're willing to accept something a little less than that.

You don't seem to understand that Karma is not the side that's losing. It's not Karma that needs to win NPO's friendship. Or rather, if Karma needs to befriend NPO, then it simply means that Karma must beat Pacifica down harder.

1.8 years in reparations is nuts.

Throwing out random large numbers without justification isn't going to win you any sympathies.

[BraveNewWorld]

It is impossible for them to have 181 nations paying the tech reps.

They currently have 178 nations with sufficient tech to qualify to pay the tech reps. Let's assume that after 2 weeks of war, some of those drop below 1K tech. Then ... we might not have 100% activity on the part of the rep payers.

I believe the term is that anyone above 1K tech before the start of the 2 weeks of war qualifies to pay the reparations. They have 178 of those nations then to pay reparations. Polaris did it with only 28.

Hypocrisy on so many levels on both sides in this thread.

Good job all around.

Polar paid 100k in tech.

Not to Pacifica.

Having been privy to the peace discussions, I can say that Emperor Revenge himself sat in on those peace talks for the Coalition side and denied Polaris's requests to remove the aid restrictions, telling us that we deserved that term for keeping our bank nations in peace mode (a tactic we learned from them). While we paid no aid to Pacifica, they can take partial credit in the creation of those terms and for making it acceptable to limit nation re-building post war.

[Emperor Brutus]

Interesting turn of events?

Also terms suck.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Emperor Brutus

[Echoic]

Except I'm not NPO. I'm Karma and I followed orders and fought for my kingdom all along.

What NPO did was not honorable. The things that they did were dishonorable on a number of occasions. Why does that justify our use of the same actions? We're above that.

From what I've gathered your justification for all of this is that its ok because NPO did it first. Two wrongs don't make a right and if this war was anything more than vengeance we might actually see CN permanently become a better place. All this war is serving to do now is clear the way for the upcoming power struggle within Karma.

A lot of us set out seeking to see an end to these types of terms. To never see them issued again. Not to be the ones issuing them.

This.

[Electron Sponge]

This is one of the more insightful contributions I have seen in this discussion. Point 2 is particularly noteworthy: the last time NPO was beaten, the victors were merciful, and the results were displeasing. It is simply prudence that dictates that the victors on this occasion show far less mercy. Those with long memories will not be swayed by propaganda now. And they will no doubt educate those who do not remember about the consequences of misplaced sympathy.

Not everyone was displeased with the results. Just sayin', a lot of people benefited from the resurgence of Pacifica who would have otherwise been forced to exist in a unipolar LUE-centric hegemony. What do you people want from NPO, anyway? What did you expect? You let the most compelling, competent and capable group of leaders in the game up off their backs with a chip on their shoulder. I don't think there was any way to let us up without doing so. There isn't this time, either. Stuff like this is how wars get started, not prevented.

I think if people look critically at this "don't forget GW1" argument, what they'll find they are saying is "we're upset NPO actually survived at all". That's not cool, and it was never really in doubt anyway. You're not going to kill NPO. Get that through your heads now and save yourselves some time.

Regarding the terms as presented, I cannot support them and I wish both sides in this conflict luck in finding a mutually agreed upon peace.

[Alterego]

Do GPA, GGA, OV, and VE all loooooove each other? Absolutely not. Do they work together? Absolutely.

You didnt tell anyone you were there to work together. You tried to make out they kicked you because you wanted to talk about red issues, otherwise you wouldnt have mentioned it. Perhaps you should tack it on to the terms that they have to do business with you.