Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Caliph]

Got that in before me.

I agree fully GPA would have been ignored had it not held the number on spot and been diplomatically isolated by it's very nature.

So don't talk about pressuring the #1 spot as if it's foreign to your alliance. NPO played perhaps the biggest role in that. What happened to the GPA because of what they were was disgusting.

To be the devils advocate, at the time Legion was under indefinite reps and indefinite viceroyship under Zhadum of the NPO, and thus helped fund NPO's rise above GPA a week or two prior to the actual war breaking out.

So at the time of the war, NPO was #1, GPA #2, IRON #3, if memory serves.

[enderland]

That's just good diplomacy. You break deals, you help people gain strength, you gain allies, if you can add to that the moral high ground.. or the road just looks bleak for the enemy.. yes, sometimes #1 does come out on top with supporters. No one's going to support an obvious losing situation without some form of rationalization that merits insurgency.

In essence, there's like a firepower threshold that must be reached before one can attempt to take down the leader of the pack. Otherwise, you support them.. or do nothing.. wait for another opportunity.

This post, however, is a good example of bad diplomacy

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I don't see how, it merely explains a concept. A lesson I learned in basic international politics in college. It also applies, by the way, to marketing and business if you're into marketing strategies and product warfare.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[ShinRa]

No one's going to support an obvious losing situation without some form of rationalization that merits insurgency.

I beg to differ.

But what you've suggested sounds less like diplomacy and more like outright political backstabbing,

To my knowlege diplomacy doesn't involve threats of severe violence on a constant basis, nor is it an immediate reaction to every last opposition or obsticle you face.

Nor to my knowledge is there any high ground to occupation bring abused to bolster your own power and userp another group as a simple extension of your own government.

The end never justifies the means, not here nor anywhere else.

[Sal Paradise]

"You're just jealous!"

We're starting to get the third string in here. I used to feel for the gagged Pacifican grunt. Now I can see why management doesn't trust them to freely speak their minds.

[Vladimir]

I thought that's already included in these terms?

The pre-terms are stated to be in addition to offered terms. I have never seen Karma state that these figures include the pre-term amounts (although I'm pretty sure I saw them referred to as 'the base amount' in negotiations, implying otherwise). If they do and want to correct me here in this thread and state that any terms offered include the pre-terms, or that the pre-terms have been withdrawn as a ridiculous policy, I would be happy to admit my mistake.

Not that I perceive the multitude of loopholes, impossibilities and 'then we'll see how merciful we are's in the terms to be one massive trap designed to induce a 'this is Karma for FAN' redeclaration.

[Ramirus Maximus]

OK wait Londo clarify for me here. Are you saying that the nations who will be allowed to pay are the nations that now sit above 1k Tech? or will it be the nations that sit above 1k tech after the war? That'll make a huge difference in the argument.

Now. This has been stated before itt. Moo leaves out details, and I understand there's a lot of pages itt, but this basic fact should be known by now. Why do you think the math from our side starts with ~180 nations? Sheesh.

[NEWBert]

When 90% or more of all nations at or above 4,000 infrastructure and additionally 90% or more of the alliance is in warmode, a countdown clock shall begin, starting on the day immediately after the above conditions have been met. A state of open warfare shall exist between the signatories of this document for a period of exactly 14 days

The above is the real kicker to the terms.

This is course would mean much longer than 14 days or 2 rounds of war, 90% is steep for any alliance. And of course realize that a significant portion of our banks were built as such, it's not like they all have SDIs or other war related wonders. Oh and those that chose to be banks because they can't meet war needs to be on CN daily?

They'd be chop meat, you'd have nations not built for war and not really capable for war being attacked for prolonged rounds. Suiciding those actually capable of handling reparations sounds like a great idea.

[Rajistani]

Have you acknowledged you were wrong? Have you apologized?

Have you read the original post

Its a better deal than you and the NPO gave to FAN. This way NPO gets terms prior to coming out of PM.

Technically not so much, its worse than the original terms FAN got, but FAN violated those terms, and then got worse terms. NPO never really violated terms at this point.

I still can't believe people are trashing Londo over these terms. Londo has been fighting to secure more lenient terms for NPO every step of the way against people some of whom *cough* Xiph *cough* didn't even want to give terms at all.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...

Honestly Londo the llama god is probably one of the only sane people during the whole reps logs (i read 'em). Massive respect to him, he may not be showing himself in the best light at the moment, but most likely because he has been infuriated by people who think they can read the english language and feel NPO is bashing them.

If you look through the thread you will see most of the Londo bashing doesn't come from NPO.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I beg to differ.

But what you've suggested sounds less like diplomacy and more like outright political backstabbing,

To my knowlege diplomacy doesn't involve threats of severe violence on a constant basis, nor is it an immediate reaction to every last opposition or obsticle you face.

Nor to my knowledge is there any high ground to occupation bring abused to bolster your own power and userp another group as a simple extension of your own government.

The end never justifies the means, not here nor anywhere else.

No, it's just planning and very logical. There's few nations in the world that are going to put their people and livelyhoods on the line for a war that they know they cannot win. It is simply human nature. The only way they're willing to do so is when a higher ideal is involved such as religion, morality, or strong cutural ties. The rationalizations can take many formats malevolent or benevolent.

[Caliph]

The pre-terms are stated to be in addition to offered terms. I have never seen Karma state that these figures include the pre-term amounts (although I'm pretty sure I saw them referred to as 'the base amount' in negotiations, implying otherwise). If they do and want to correct me here in this thread and state that any terms offered include the pre-terms, or that the pre-terms have been withdrawn as a ridiculous policy, I would be happy to admit my mistake.

Not that I perceive the multitude of loopholes, impossibilities and 'then we'll see how merciful we are's in the terms to be one massive trap designed to induce a 'this is Karma for FAN' redeclaration.

1) How would that be any different to what you did to FAN?

2) What makes you so certain the alliances arrayed against you would do such a thing? Do any of those alliances have a history for things of that nature?

[magicninja]

Magicninja just stated that we benefited for a time under NPO... Okay, I don't really see GtG denying that in his post. GtG was arguing against such ignorant people who said we jumped ship when we saw the winning side; which if anyone were actually present during the time when Sparta made the decision it looked like the Hegemony side would have the advantage, if only slightly.

I never actually said Sparta by name. I actually think you of all the alliances had legitimate reasons to part ways with them.

[Sal Paradise]

Not that I perceive the multitude of loopholes, impossibilities and 'then we'll see how merciful we are's in the terms to be one massive trap designed to induce a 'this is Karma for FAN' redeclaration.

One can only hope.

[Ramirus Maximus]

Nothing can break our will to survive and overcome. We stand stronger and more united now than we have in a very long time - this war, while it has damaged our infrastructure and our political image, is also stripping away the weak and cowardly from our ranks.

That's more like it! That's the Pacifica spirit I'm used to! See folks, THIS Pacifican knows these terms aren't impossible! NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE NPO!

[Caliph]

Technically not so much, its worse than the original terms FAN got, but FAN violated those terms, and then got worse terms. NPO never really violated terms at this point.

Actually, the vast majority of legitimate FAN members had between 20-40% troop to civilian ratios. At the time game mechanics made it harder to get an exact percentage.

If you look through the thread you will see most of the Londo bashing doesn't come from NPO.

Correct, it has mainly come from TPF and Mhawk.

[Geopet]

Yes, yes. Ignore the other 17 alliances that pushed for these (and harsher) terms. Blame it all on the evil Londo Mollari. These terms were created by 18 alliances.

Working with a large group of people in negotiations is a special challenge. I imagine I also would have pushed for harsher terms here were I in a channel with at least 17 other people discussing what to do. However, it is hard to imagine how you'd forget the overarching importance of Karma and explaining and justifying the terms in that theme.

It's not too late. My argument is not with the numbers, but more so with the unexplained policy change requirements and lack of specificity or purpose to those requirements and reparations.

I mean let's think about one of the most obvious, how can Karma justify overturning the Revenge Doctrine?

What does Karma have against unaligned nations?

Mussolandia said it better pages ago, but what the heck happened to your greater purpose?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It might warrant a direct answer if it mattered. However since it is a fact that the NPO has held alliances responsible for the actions of the past government, it bears noting that this is exactly what "we" are doing when we are holding the current NPO gov, and alliance, responsible for what the NPO did post GW1.

Unlike other alliances whose history goes back that far, you, and you alone have maintained that you have never lost a war. You, and you alone held grudges for years to come. You, and you alone took the lenient terms, the apology, and later recinded it when it was clear that it could no longer be enforced without a costly war. (note: 'you' in this paragraph denotes the NPO as an alliance, not specifically Maelstrom)

Your alliance has shown no remorse for your past actions, and to this very day attempt to subvert the truth and accept that you lost GW1. It is your refusal to see the truth of GW1 that makes me, and everybody in Karma or who has fought for Karma this war, on edge with giving NPO lenient terms.

I just give up on you answering with anything more than your own tirade.. so I guess this concludes our monologue, mostly yours. All I wanted was to participate in your conversation, I will give a little if you will, but you don't.

If you don't know who ruled in these times, "I don't know." works.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Balkan Banania]

Now that Ramirus Maximus, a Karma official is back in topic I will repeat my post and I would kindly ask for a reply.

As I see it, the Karma people can easily evaluate the damage done in 14 days of war for the large nations and projectile the development of these nations for the time span they want. Then they can calculate an amount that would compensate for leaving them out of the war and add the specific amount on the final terms. I think it is better to have specific peace terms, than peace terms that can be easily used for prolonging the war, while you have gained a strategic advantage (banks leaving PM etc ).

[Caliph]

I just give up on you answering with anything more than your own tirade.. so I guess this concludes our monologue, mostly yours. All I wanted was to participate in your conversation, I will give a little if you will, but you don't.

If you don't know who ruled in these times, "I don't know." works.

So you want me to say that Electron Sponge and Jonathan Brookbank led that coalition, with help from Moo Cows, Dilber, and others?

I have said it doesn't matter, because they operated for their alliance, not for themselves.

[AnCapistan]

Okay well Im tired aswell but I also managed to put together a list where all the NPO Wars Resulting in reps were listed. While Im sure this list is wrong it will probably serve it's argument (tis wrong cause it doesn't account for GW 1-3)

Citrus War: 500,000 | No Tech

Second Artic War: 1,000,000,000

UJW: 26 Mil

Woodstock Massacre: 10000 Tech

Wolfpack War: 18,000 Tech

WoC: 69500 tech

So the total is:

1,026,500,000 Dollars

97500 Tech

So the cash amount is about 1/7 of the Karma terms

The Tech amount is about 1/3

And remember this is all over a 3 year time span

Once again excuse if this is wrong It's (OOC) 3:40 AM over here (/OOC)

EDIT: 100th Post w00t!

Edited June 13, 2009 by Mr Damsky

[Michael the Squirrel]

You do realize that you will generally make peoples lives better when you cut through the crap and just post what is needed?

[Caliph]

You do realize that you will generally make peoples lives better when you cut through the crap and just post what is needed?

It is not needed. Those names only serve to throw a smokescreen and to move the focus from the point (which was that aliances are responsible for their governments actions, especially if the current gov fully supports and attempts to revise actions of prior gov), and moves the focus to those people who have since moved on from that time.

[R3nowned]

oh FFS Karma... 300,000 tech... $7bil... that is ridiculous. You're expecting an alliance with an ANS of less than 9k to pay that kind of money... I don't know...

I fully understand Karma isn't about -no- reparations, but, instead, was an attempt to change the game for the better. This is plain hypocrisy right there.

P.S. Didn't read the thread... It exploded with replies, and I can't be bothered reading all of them.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

RE: Caliph's last response to myself.

If that is who was responsible... they should share the blame. It's not like most of the alliances around here are democracies.. and all nations need to watch out for their own safety. I found my safety in the NPO, when I came to this world they treated me better and showed greater organization than any group I could have hoped to affiliate with. I joined up and they helped me build, I grew strong with their aid and their guidance and learned a lot about the systems in this game.

There are over 900 people who have benefited in like fashion and perhaps 10% of them are the ones that actually control the policy over what has offended the aggressor alliances.

By the logic of Karma, every soldier should be treated as if they are the head of state that ordered these "crimes" because that is the level of burden their offers are putting on the NPO. And who hasn't learned something from the NPO or benefited at some time from relationships with it? Enemies have changed over time, I can tell that by just reading the Wiki... but you can't tell me there isn't some good in this alliance worth saving. Many of us are loyal, noble, and we have no desire to abandon each other when your issues lie with a minority.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Alterego]

I mean let's think about one of the most obvious, how can Karma justify overturning the Revenge Doctrine?

What does Karma have against unaligned nations?

Mussolandia said it better pages ago, but what the heck happened to your greater purpose?

Their greater purpose is now a financial one.