Sandwich Controversy Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Funny how no one chooses to remember this, yet still jump on the "omg u betrayed NpO!!!1" bandwagon any chance they get. Well you seemed to be fine with the evidence or lack thereof because you still attacked NADC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Well you seemed to be fine with the evidence or lack thereof because you still attacked NADC. OHHHHHHH!!!!! Everyone was thinking it. Come on, Echelon, give this a real try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodemofi-NPO Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Huh? The OP says the poster doesn't have any interest in the propaganda of either side, i.e. Karma or Hegemony.Whatever this thread is, it isn't Hegemony propaganda. Now calling it pro-Echelon propaganda, I doubt very few people would argue that. Yawn, whatever. If people don't want to read replies to old posts, they shouldn't read long threads. I think you misunderstood me. The line in the OP that I took exception to was the OP claiming that his post wasn't propaganda. That isn't hypocritical of me as an STA member because in the thread you linked to, Pezstar never claimed her post wasn't propaganda. That and I wasn't a member of STA then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Funny how no one chooses to remember this, yet still jump on the "omg u betrayed NpO!!!1" bandwagon any chance they get. Maybe because it's off topic and has nothing to do with this situation at all? You certainly aren't helping your case re: having no spine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Funny how no one chooses to remember this, yet still jump on the "omg u betrayed NpO!!!1" bandwagon any chance they get. Can you explain how its a bandwagon? Personally, it seems to be a valid retort...your alliance is pointing at something and using it as an indicator of a character flaw on GOD's part, and are also asserting that this character flaw is not present in Echelon, so therefore any reference to the whole NpO incident is merely evidence that you yourselves have the same flaws your attempting to paint GOD with. However, the OP's claims are a load of !@#$ anyway, as they are based on a friendly PM that is offering individual surrender. Good job lol Edited May 31, 2009 by Il Impero Romano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Funny how no one chooses to remember this, yet still jump on the "omg u betrayed NpO!!!1" bandwagon any chance they get. Why don't you drop AA to scam a guy from a 20-man alliance into a tech deal with you so you can recover from bill lock about it? Yeah. I saw that. Edited May 31, 2009 by NoFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 That reminds me of the time I asked Assington for the proof of NADC spy attacks. I did the same. Guess which one of us he answered? Additionally, which one of us supported that war, and which one of us didn't? I remember being quite outspoken about that war, and remember a few arguments I have gotten into with Polaris gov, and if memory serves, you at that time, and others. I remember you, or at least your alliance, fully supporting Polaris in that event. So bringing up that event to try to smear Polaris kinda backfires as we see your alliance fully supporting Polaris in that war with absolutely no evidence to back it up. That does not look good when claiming Echelon has "honor". Truth is there was no proof of NADC spy attacks. However in this situation there is plenty of evidence for Echelon being subpar with conducting diplomacy, in that respect was not freely given, and that Echelon acted with a heavy hand in the past. Now that Echelon no longer has the might of One Vision or BLEU to draw on, and one of its oldest allies, NPO, is in no position to help them, Echelon turns to the propoganda war, and moans and wines about the term of surrender that stats Echelon members with over 1k tech must pay reps. How is this any worse than what Echelon did to MK in the NoCB war? Truth is, it isn't any worse at all. If Echelon were truly against such terms, where were Echelon members speaking out against their government? Why did the leaders in negotiations representing Echelon, why weren't those people expelled from the alliance for not representing Echelon views? Or at least discontent from Echelon members in loue (spelling?) of Echelons actions that war? You'll forgive me if I do not see Echelon as a victim here in this war. You'll also note that I see the reps offered so far as perfectly acceptable, seeing as how Echelon has given terms like that to alliances in the past, and has fully supported their allies when they had offered worse terms in the past. This shows that Echelon has no problem with terms like these, only when terms like these are offered to them. And that is double standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinKiac Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Can someone explain to me how GOD is evil in this topic? Because, frankly, I don't get it. Me too. The first thing I thought when finishing reading the OP was "thats it?". I think you should go to bed, kiddo. You're all over the place with this post and tbh, poodles and great bernards are both dogs and more comparable than pretty much anything else is with another poodle barring another poodle.. Its Saint Bernards, not great bernards. There is such a thing as a Great Dane, but Im pretty sure there is no such thing as a great bernard. I cant believe no one picked up on that, lol. Congratulations! It gives me great displeasure to advise you all that you've missed the point (some of you multiple times!), however, just because it looks like you made an effort, I'm willing to let it slide. And I have never paid too much attention to you Karma guys before, but having experienced such a warm welcome, I feel I should reciprocate - Only now has your potential impact on the game become apparent; whereas I have never before been welcomed with such vigour by the NPO, IRON, or that underhanded hegemony-mob, you fill me with hope and promise. Your interest, faith and acceptance in the words I speak are indicative of a bright new era where tolerance and happiness, propagated by the likes of NSO, MK, Nemesis & all the rest, will consume Bob. You people are a credit to and asset to this world, I commend you on your actions. Thank you. I encourage you to seek me out in #wutwar if I've left you feeling unsatisfied. lol. You just dont get it do you? I like the way you place NSO at the top of your little list there when they arent even Karma, and they have nations arguing both sides of this. They are showing a more neutral stance as an alliance then any other alliance in here I think. Matthew117 bows his head and begins to chuckleTo address a common misconception: Echelon is under no false pretenses - We aren't holding out for white peace, nor do we expect it. From out initial involvement in the war, we haven't expected anything different. We did object to the terms offered to us, but that is not the topic of discussion. ...However it remains relevant, because all of our nations who did not appear to be government were messaged within 3 hours of those talks concluding, after GOD had quite bluntly stated they would not make concessions and had no sympathy for us (and why should they? We're at war). The issue is that after ~40 days of war, where Echelon has lost two dozen members, those who remain stand united in their fight - our combatants realise this. Echelon will leave this war when it is appropriate... yet some are trying to get too clever, outraged because their demands aren't met. There is no love lost between our two alliances, they do not care for the welfare of our nations - by hand-picking nations for government-issued individual surrender terms they seek to undermine the same talks they were responsible for organising. That is the reality of the situation. Those who have stated a case otherwise, you've made your intent clear, I doubt there's much more that can be said to appease you. Those messages were deliberate in the most malicious way - war does not provide an excuse for, nor absolve one of, all sins. I think the terms are very relevant to the topic. Ive noticed that the amount of reparations have yet to be contested here, nor have they been posted. I assume that if they were actually as harsh as they are being made out to be they would have been by now considering what a horrible failure this thread has been in getting people to feel any sympathy for Echelon. The only part I see contested is the fact that Echelons larger nations would have to pay the reps. I do not see the problem in this. Also, if the remaining combatants agree with your stance, are aware of the terms you refused and why, and remain "united" in their fight against GOD and others, then why does the mass message matter at all. I believe I saw you post somewhere that that is the real reason for this post. To decry the malicious mass message sent out by GOD. If the message doesnt do anything to hurt you at all, then why post the thread? You must be right. It is in no way like this thread.The irony of someone from STA posting a private channels FTW message in this situation is... remarkable. (Note that I still think that thread was a good idea on STA's part.) That aside, GOD needs to get its people on message. Are the reps demands just normal reps demands because NPO attacked OV, GOD's winning the war, and GOD likes reps, or are they because Echelon has a desire to seek revenge on GOD over the Aurora Borealis incident and GOD needs to protect themselves in the future from Echelon's evil? Really, I'm not clear. Demanding that gov and larger nations pay reps is in no way similar to demanding that the gov step down and other nations not be allowed to be in Gov. Thats called meddling in internal affairs, which is quite different. Also, I dont believe that other thread was a huge PR fail for STA so again it is not similar in any way. EDIT - Removed unnecessary contentSure, i guess it could be that, but since that was hardly mentioned aside from a breif sentence clear at the end, I almost missed that. Sure, he contends that the offer is open, but that clearly takes a backseat to the bigger message he tries to convey: That the leadership of Echelon doesn't care for its membership and that they favor a war that continues indefinately. As a member of Echelon's government, I know that such is nothing further from the truth. I have no doubt what-so-ever that NoFish's message was intended first and foremost as a direct insult to the Echelon leadership and his intention was to use "mind games" to weaken Echelon to acheive his personal goals. Echelon is not averse to paying reparations, we don't expect white peace, and we understand that such is simply part of the game. Its true that we've not come out of this war on top. The terms that were presented to Echelon tonight were unfair and a kick in a face. The leaders of Echelon were willing to come to the table and would have been conducive to reaching a solution which included fair and reasonable reparations. Being out of this war would be nice, but I agree with the conclusions of Echelon's represenatives at the peace talks that it isn't worth the unfair and unreasonable terms which were presented to us tonight. May everybody have a nice day, Even in the darkest of times theres never a reason to be uncivil. -mp If the reparations were not "fair and reasonable" then why not post the rep amounts to help your cause? The only thing I see you calling unreasonable is that your larger nations that are in peace mode have to pay, and that aspect of the terms is not unreasonable by any means. Echelon is willing to pay reparations.The amount that they'll be capable of paying is steadily decreasing with each day of war. GOD insists on very specific terms that they know Echelon will not accept. GOD gets to take Echelon into perpetual war and claim the moral high ground because they turned down the terms. It's extremely transparent, and knowing GOD's leadership, they've got some grudges, and would almost surely rather see Echelon destroyed than to actually grant them peace of any kind. What's the point of such a specific term? If it wasn't created simply because you all knew it would be turned down, then what purpose does it serve? It's quite evident that you don't want your blood money like other alliances. You want the blood instead. Why drag all those alliances to the table if you already know what you want? You want this war to continue until Echelon is dust. Why waste everyone's time, Xiphosis? Would you please stop posting. No one here listens to what you have to say except those that are already on your side. Your extreme bias is too well known for your word to have any effect on peoples opinions here. You've evidently missed the point of this thread. Ah well. I suppose maybe Echelon will take you up on it and post the full terms they were offered. But this thread isn't about individual terms, it's about the membership stating they support their leadership's decision to refuse terms. Funny, I see only a very few echelon members in here posting thier support. Considering one of the first posts was from a member saying he did support it seems to be nothing more than them trying to support this claim, which may not be true, especially considering how angry they are getting over the mass message. Neither Caffine nor Tela are part of Echelon anymore. Caffine's impact on Echelon has almost completely ceased this year due to RL commitments.Just for the record: I have no issues with 90% of our peace terms, apart from the fact that only nation with one thousand tech or higher are allowed to pay the reps. The rationale our enemies provided was: -We could spout some !@#$%^&* about keeping the rank and file from paying for the sins of the leaders and senior members if you wanted us to. -A majority of nations in peace mode were your largest -It ensures that members who were in peace mode pay tech -And ensures Echelon actually has to, you know, rebuild. Not just buy back infra, which is ridiculously easy." Which is simply not true. Most nations now in peace mode have fought long and hard. A handful remained in peace mode this entire conflict, but they had understandable RL issues with their families and loved ones. Paying reps and recovering from being reduced to 1 fifth our former size is not enough of a deterrent to ensure that we are no threat against Karma alliances anymore? You really have to dismantle our heavy hitters who have the tech amount to induce at least some kind of damaging effect in our enemies? You might as well tell us all to reroll, it would have the same effect of cripling Echelon's military abilities. I think that is the point. Dismantling the alliances "military" capabilities after a large scale war is to be expected isnt it? Also, I dont think it has anything to do with if Echelon will pose a threat to "Karma" necessarily, but to any alliance at least for a while. If Echelon does not plan on going to war again for a while then why complain about having your military weakened? Unless of course you plan on trying to exact revenge at the "soonest" possible opportunity. Edited May 31, 2009 by KinKiac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinKiac Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Truth is, it isn't any worse at all. If Echelon were truly against such terms, where were Echelon members speaking out against their government? Why did the leaders in negotiations representing Echelon, why weren't those people expelled from the alliance for not representing Echelon views? Or at least discontent from Echelon members in lieu (spelling?) of Echelons actions that war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Why don't you drop AA to scam a guy from a 20-man alliance into a tech deal with you so you can recover from bill lock about it?Yeah. I saw that. Just so this doesn't get lost in the sea of posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krull Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Just so this doesn't get lost in the sea of posts. Goldmine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Why don't you drop AA to scam a guy from a 20-man alliance into a tech deal with you so you can recover from bill lock about it?Yeah. I saw that. This is a masterful post. Bravo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metallica5000 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Why don't you drop AA to scam a guy from a 20-man alliance into a tech deal with you so you can recover from bill lock about it?Yeah. I saw that. Wonderful post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gears of War Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Why don't you drop AA to scam a guy from a 20-man alliance into a tech deal with you so you can recover from bill lock about it?Yeah. I saw that. Well played good sir. Hey Echelon, this thread sure did backfire on you, didn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamed Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Funny how no one chooses to remember this, yet still jump on the "omg u betrayed NpO!!!1" bandwagon any chance they get. Hey, didn't you just surrender? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 What the heck?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 What the heck?? Right ventricle shutting down, heart attack imminent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenzilla Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 What the heck?? I am as confused as the rest of you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Anyways, I can guarantee that Echelon won't accept terms that are over and above anything they've ever been paid, which is next to nothing. So the maroons can keep waiting. I surrender to Karma I guess technically he didn't misspeak. He stated that Echelon wouldn't be accepting peace terms, and then he left them to seek peace. Still very odd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Defending this announcement then surrendering is a good strategy I suppose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Debater Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Disgusting, GOD allows individual surrenders? This is unprecedented. I'm outraged, hear me roar! *rawr* This pretty much sums up the entire issue. Echelon apparently doesnt want to surrender as an alliance. Ok. GOD and Co are letting people surrender individually. This is bad........how? Also. The best way to get terms finished and to get better ones is obviously to run to the OWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audran Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Why don't you drop AA to scam a guy from a 20-man alliance into a tech deal with you so you can recover from bill lock about it?Yeah. I saw that. Now that is truly a wonderful thing that should be brought up repeatedly in this thread. What the heck?? Oh lordy....can't....breathe....laughing....too....hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogeWilliam Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Hey audran, my avatar pwns ur avatar. Or, umm, not? *blade runner* )): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x Tela x Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I did the same.Guess which one of us he answered? Additionally, which one of us supported that war, and which one of us didn't? I remember being quite outspoken about that war, and remember a few arguments I have gotten into with Polaris gov, and if memory serves, you at that time, and others. I remember you, or at least your alliance, fully supporting Polaris in that event. So bringing up that event to try to smear Polaris kinda backfires as we see your alliance fully supporting Polaris in that war with absolutely no evidence to back it up. That does not look good when claiming Echelon has "honor". Truth is there was no proof of NADC spy attacks. However in this situation there is plenty of evidence for Echelon being subpar with conducting diplomacy, in that respect was not freely given, and that Echelon acted with a heavy hand in the past. Now that Echelon no longer has the might of One Vision or BLEU to draw on, and one of its oldest allies, NPO, is in no position to help them, Echelon turns to the propoganda war, and moans and wines about the term of surrender that stats Echelon members with over 1k tech must pay reps. How is this any worse than what Echelon did to MK in the NoCB war? Truth is, it isn't any worse at all. If Echelon were truly against such terms, where were Echelon members speaking out against their government? Why did the leaders in negotiations representing Echelon, why weren't those people expelled from the alliance for not representing Echelon views? Or at least discontent from Echelon members in loue (spelling?) of Echelons actions that war? You'll forgive me if I do not see Echelon as a victim here in this war. You'll also note that I see the reps offered so far as perfectly acceptable, seeing as how Echelon has given terms like that to alliances in the past, and has fully supported their allies when they had offered worse terms in the past. This shows that Echelon has no problem with terms like these, only when terms like these are offered to them. And that is double standards. Hold on there, buckaroo. All of BLEU was told at the time that Polaris had evidence, and they would release it shortly, once it was all put together etc, blah blah. That was an error in judgement, from every alliance in BLEU, for putting faith into our ally. We trusted them and took them at their word and went to war at their side. I only found out for sure AFTER the war, when a Polaris member showed me the proof, where Assington posted to his body republic that they had no evidence, but they "knew it was NADC". Additionally, Echelon has never given any terms that even remotely resemble 400 mil and 35k tech, and certainly not with stupid restrictions on who can send it. That 10k tech from MK is the only thing that's even in the same neighborhood, and as has been said before, when you ride with NPO, you take the good with the bad - Just like all of the Karma alliances that were once allied with NPO have done in the past. When big brother lays down the reps and tells you to take them, you just do it. ^ That's wrong on a fundamental level, but it's how the world worked. If you bunch of d-bags succeed in creating an anarchistic world where there is no proven power at the top calling most of the shots, then that will be a great improvement to the political metagame within planet Bob's system. I'm not optimistic, though. Instead of 1 power, we'll have a handful of powers, and they'll act the same way. Why? Because they can. To be fair to GOD, they have never rolled with NPO, and only briefly with NpO in the old days before their merge. (IBC represent! A great alliance!) So when they do things their way, they really are doing it their way. They don't have any history like many karma alliances that would point them out to be hypocrites. GOD has stood on their own merits for a long time, without aligning with the elite powers in the world. That is to be respected, for what it's worth. You're still a bunch of d-bags, though. IBC > GOD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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