Tiggah Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Do you even read what we post? Like seriously, do you? Cause I don't think anyone in Vanguard seriously asked for Valhalla to give us reps while not being at war with us. Whether or not we paid them to you makes no difference. You've been quite clear that you felt we owed reps. Maybe a more accurate statement would be that you felt we owed you suffering. You didn't care who got paid, just so long as we were paying. Clearly you feel you were owed something, or you wouldn't be up in arms over this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 TheEric.Stop posting immediately, you're not helping anyone. Whether or not we paid them to you makes no difference. You've been quite clear that you felt we owed reps. Maybe a more accurate statement would be that you felt we owed you suffering. You didn't care who got paid, just so long as we were paying. Clearly you feel you were owed something, or you wouldn't be up in arms over this issue. You should listen to your gov and alliance mates. They are trying to stop you from making yourself look like a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 TheEric.Stop posting immediately, you're not helping anyone. This post is wise. Id consider it TheEric, you arnt making any progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzelger Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 How is claiming allies for the future dishonorable? I didnt question your honor in that post. Tossing aside the concerns of your comrades on the field for the purpose of scoring points with the other side would be dishonorable in my book. I don't think that's what happened though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkules Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Whether or not we paid them to you makes no difference. You've been quite clear that you felt we owed reps. Maybe a more accurate statement would be that you felt we owed you suffering. You didn't care who got paid, just so long as we were paying. Clearly you feel you were owed something, or you wouldn't be up in arms over this issue. Yes, we felt you deserved to feel pain for the agony, destruction, and sorrow you have inflicted upon hundreds of players. However, the reparations, as has been stated repeatedly, is more to slow your rebuilding than anything also. It also acts a a symbolic gesture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcraftmazter Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 NEW RULE: If you were in League and/or Aegis and now reside in Karma you don't have the right to act like you are winning anything. Up yours Stumpy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Claiming restriction on outside aid (ignoring the fact that under the terms given to Valhalla they can tech deal with a number of alliances to bring in outside money) slows down growth is incorrect. Historically, the use of such a term was to prevent other alliances paying off reparations payments mandated by said peace terms on an alliance's behalf. This was designed to ensure that an alliance paid all its reparations debts off on its own.Large nations in an alliance with significant warchests can farm out aid to lower strength members and facilitate rapid rebuilding without any outside aid. Had those nations instead been required to pay reparations then their ability to rebuild others in their alliance is reduced until those reparations are paid. Simply banning outside aid, while preventing outside money and tech (outside of the allowed tech deals) rebuilding the alliance, does little to slow rebuilding of an alliance these days. Reps unless they are extremely severe that they take up every single slot don't stop internal aiding either. Even with 82,000 tech in 10 cycles for a 150 man alliance MK moved 3.6 billion internally and sent 700 mill to allies. Polar moved a similar amount (3.96 billion IIRC) To completely fill an alliance's aid slots, a month with a 100 members takes up 1500 aid slots, equivalent to 75,000 tech or 4.5 billion in money. Even the harshest reps have just been a fraction of that, and 10,000-50,000 tech reps from Valhalla wouldn't stopped their rebuilding unless it wasn't very great to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Up yours Stumpy. I you too. Sorry to those Aegis and League fellas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Up yours Stumpy. It's not like he's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryievla Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Nice work, Stumpy. I want that t-shirt too, that'd be *awesome*. It surely did make me giggle at least, because that is kind of how I felt on reading the thread This is still my favorite publication by a long shot, but I miss the cards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Nice work, Stumpy. I want that t-shirt too, that'd be *awesome*. It surely did make me giggle at least, because that is kind of how I felt on reading the thread This is still my favorite publication by a long shot, but I miss the cards! Rsox let us all down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzle Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Valhalla has massive warchests...lol I'm sorry I just can't say that with a straight face after the war. Maybe when it started...but after? hahahahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Reps unless they are extremely severe that they take up every single slot don't stop internal aiding either. Even with 82,000 tech in 10 cycles for a 150 man alliance MK moved 3.6 billion internally and sent 700 mill to allies. Polar moved a similar amount (3.96 billion IIRC) Never claimed it did. All I claimed was that slots used to pay reps can't be used to send aid to rebuild internally. Feel free to counter what I actually said if you like. To completely fill an alliance's aid slots, a month with a 100 members takes up 1500 aid slots, equivalent to 75,000 tech or 4.5 billion in money. Even the harshest reps have just been a fraction of that, and 10,000-50,000 tech reps from Valhalla wouldn't stopped their rebuilding unless it wasn't very great to begin with. The only people claiming to have blocked their aid slots is Kronos who say not allowing external aid means they cannot use their aid slots. Ignoring the fact they can sell tech to Kronos and Umbrella under the terms, they are also free to send aid within Valhalla which means their aid slots are not blocked up at all. If they were required to pay reparations then less of their slots would be used for rebuilding and therefore the aid being sent out within the alliance would be reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Another great Corner. It was delightful to see the genuine article come so soon after that other one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Never claimed it did. All I claimed was that slots used to pay reps can't be used to send aid to rebuild internally. Feel free to counter what I actually said if you like.The only people claiming to have blocked their aid slots is Kronos who say not allowing external aid means they cannot use their aid slots. Ignoring the fact they can sell tech to Kronos and Umbrella under the terms, they are also free to send aid within Valhalla which means their aid slots are not blocked up at all. If they were required to pay reparations then less of their slots would be used for rebuilding and therefore the aid being sent out within the alliance would be reduced. My point was that unless you gave them reps approaching 100,000 tech or billions in dollars to pay, it wouldn't have made much more than a moderate dent to any determined rebuilding program. Moderate reps would not have made more than a week or two's delay which isn't worth all the fuss that's been made about it by you and others. Reps have a lot more symbolic than practical value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King William IV Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Great read as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) My point was that unless you gave them reps approaching 100,000 tech or billions in dollars to pay, it wouldn't have made much more than a moderate dent to any determined rebuilding program. Moderate reps would not have made more than a week or two's delay which isn't worth all the fuss that's been made about it by you and others. Reps have a lot more symbolic than practical value. No, you were trying to claim I said that making them pay reps would prevent all internal aid. I also never claimed that reps were anything more than symbolic, it does not make them any less warranted nor does it take away from the fact that reps would slow rebuilding, even if only a week or two. The "dent" in their rebuilding effort is the punishment for their past actions so, while symbolic in nature, they also make the terms fairer and more in line with their status in the "hegemony". Edited May 23, 2009 by Tygaland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crushtania Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Love your stuff Stumpy. Keep up the great work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 No, you were trying to claim I said that making them pay reps would prevent all internal aid. That's not what I said, I used those numbers to illustrate that we are only talking about a small fraction of their aid slots. I also never claimed that reps were anything more than symbolic, it does not make them any less warranted nor does it take away from the fact that reps would slow rebuilding, even if only a week or two.The "dent" in their rebuilding effort is the punishment for their past actions so, while symbolic in nature, they also make the terms fairer and more in line with their status in the "hegemony". The fact that they are just symbolic may not make them any less warranted, but it does make it not as important as it seems like it's being made out to be. Ultimately the war itself is many, many times more damaging than reps would have been. We're talking probably somewhere in the neighborhood of hundred billion in losses by Valhalla and a year's worth of growth. A billion or two worth of reps that delay growth for a week or two is minor in comparison. The argument that they deserved reps as fair turnabout is fair, but the outrage that there was a lost-opportunity to cripple their rebuilding is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygaland Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 That's not what I said, I used those numbers to illustrate that we are only talking about a small fraction of their aid slots. I'm not aware anyone argued otherwise. The fact that they are just symbolic may not make them any less warranted, but it does make it not as important as it seems like it's being made out to be. Ultimately the war itself is many, many times more damaging than reps would have been. We're talking probably somewhere in the neighborhood of hundred billion in losses by Valhalla and a year's worth of growth. A billion or two worth of reps that delay growth for a week or two is minor in comparison. They may not be important to you but to others, that Valhalla happily pillaged, after suffering as badly or worse in war, they are important. The argument that they deserved reps as fair turnabout is fair, but the outrage that there was a lost-opportunity to cripple their rebuilding is not. I disagree. People in alliances that were extorted and threatened with extinction by Vahalla have every right to object to the free pass they were given in this war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrick Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Good as always Stumpy Now, why did Orkules get banned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 This is the first Trashcat's Corner I wasn't in :smithicide: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Good as always Stumpy Now, why did Orkules get banned? OOC: We dont know, he wasnt given a reason for this last warn. @Archon - Theres a reason its the best one yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uaciaut Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) And the bawwwing continues Edited May 23, 2009 by uaciaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 And the bawwwing continues I was waiting for LJ, but this works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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