Nizzle Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) Edit: I guess I'll sum up my thoughts here, seeing as I've been mostly gone for a while and missed 40 pages of the Valhalla topic. I agree with Kronos and Umbrella, the terms are yours to dictate, seeing as you were on that front, and that is how Karma is handling the surrenders. I also agree with you that you have no obligation to take others' concerns, wishes, desires, etc into consideration, especially of parties to whom you're not directly tied. Saying that, your complete dismissal of these others' concerns, wishes, desires, etc on the basis that you are not allied and owe us no consideration in your thought process is a double edged sword. You're certainly not winning too many friends or endearing yourselves to us, though perhaps the same can be said for those disagreeing with you as well. However, how you have treated those of us by flat out dismissing our concerns and desires, again, you have the right to, will certainly stay in our memories, some of us longer than others, some of us more fervently than others. All I can say is that I hope you don't need/want any of us to do anything or seriously take into consideration your concerns in a situation you're not directly involved in, seeing as you've irked many of those in power in these outside alliance. Obviously, that won't be a problem if you never need us to do anything, and I'm sure several of you will remember the way this disagreement was voiced, and its ferocity. Every decision has its implications, if not consequences, and I just hope you understand the implications of your decision, and more importantly (at least in my mind) how you've come to this decision. I think it wise for both parties to read your edit, as it does speak to the application of diplomacy. However, and I'm not sure if it could be removed or avoided, but I do not like the veiled meaning held within. It is a sad, sad thing that you imply we will forever be on opposite sides of the spectrum. Imagine, it could have been avoided if the initial complaints were kept to private channels and control was exerted on members of government who provoked the horrible response in the initial thread. Insofar as Kronos desiring our concerns be heard in a situation we are not involved in...I would dare say Planet Bob knows how we feel about that. It is solely the responsibility of whatever alliance is dealing with the situation, and no one else. That is, after all, why we have independent alliances and not hive-mind groups. I think enough has been said on this topic. Certainly for this venue. Edited May 25, 2009 by Nizzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael Nadal Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) I think it wise for both parties to read your edit, as it does speak to the application of diplomacy. However, and I'm not sure if it could be removed or avoided, but I do not like the veiled meaning held within. It is a sad, sad thing that you imply we will forever be on opposite sides of the spectrum. Imagine, it could have been avoided if the initial complaints were kept to private channels and control was exerted on members of government who provoked the horrible response in the initial thread.Insofar as Kronos desiring our concerns be heard in a situation we are not involved in...I would dare say Planet Bob knows how we feel about that. It is solely the responsibility of whatever alliance is dealing with the situation, and no one else. That is, after all, why we have independent alliances and not hive-mind groups. I think enough has been said on this topic. Certainly for this venue. There is no veiled meaning to my words. It's quite obvious you have pissed off a faction in Karma, and people who are pissed at you tend to not go out of their way to do you any favors. I said it is your right to piss off the faction, but don't expect there to be no implications or consequences from it. The consequences could range from short term anger/frustration to a long term grudge, or anywhere in between. Different people, alliances, and people in alliances will take this slight differently, and some of them who take it harder happen to be in positions of power in their governments. Also, that public Valhalla peace topic had the same arguments as the terms topic for Karma, just obviously in a new venue. And for the same reasons that you have the right to piss off a faction of Karma, I don't see any need to exert control over the gov't members of other alliances. And as for provoking a horrible response, you were going to get it from the general membership regardless of what a few government individuals felt. And if you're going to use language such as provoking, offhandedly dismissing the input, concerns, and wishes of your fellow coalition members is a good way to do it. I'm not entirely blaming you guys, just making a point about using the term "provoking". Edited May 25, 2009 by Rafael Nadal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzle Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Also, that public Valhalla peace topic had the same arguments as the terms topic for Karma, just obviously in a new venue. And for the same reasons that you have the right to piss off a faction of Karma, I don't see any need to exert control over the gov't members of other alliances. And as for provoking a horrible response, you were going to get it from the general membership regardless of what a few government individuals felt. And if you're going to use language such as provoking, offhandedly dismissing the input, concerns, and wishes of your fellow coalition members is a good way to do it. I'm not entirely blaming you guys, just making a point about using the term "provoking". Wow. So, despite the conversation already being held behind closed doors...you have no issue with airing dirty laundry in public? I find it hilarious that you are alright with attacking "coalition members" in public, despite there being a private venue, yet are angry over receiving a response to the trolling of "coalition members". Regardless, I am still dismayed by the language you are using to describe our reaction to being attacked by "coalition members" and how it will effect our future. Honestly, seeing the behavior towards us by "coalition members" was quite telling. You know who I am on IRC, if you feel the desire to continue this conversation do find me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael Nadal Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Wow.So, despite the conversation already being held behind closed doors...you have no issue with airing dirty laundry in public? I find it hilarious that you are alright with attacking "coalition members" in public, despite there being a private venue, yet are angry over receiving a response to the trolling of "coalition members". Regardless, I am still dismayed by the language you are using to describe our reaction to being attacked by "coalition members" and how it will effect our future. Honestly, seeing the behavior towards us by "coalition members" was quite telling. You know who I am on IRC, if you feel the desire to continue this conversation do find me. I'm not angry at all for your responses to us. Don't dish out what you can't take yourself. If I make a snide comment towards somebody, I'm not going to get angry for getting a snide comment back. All I'm saying is that I will contend you most likely underestimate the slight some feel by just plain dismissing their input and wishes. Once again, that's fine, but just understand that you have pissed some people off, and pissed off people don't go out of their way to help those who pissed them off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I'm not angry at all for your responses to us. Don't dish out what you can't take yourself. If I make a snide comment towards somebody, I'm not going to get angry for getting a snide comment back. All I'm saying is that I will contend you most likely underestimate the slight some feel by just plain dismissing their input and wishes. Once again, that's fine, but just understand that you have pissed some people off, and pissed off people don't go out of their way to help those who pissed them off. Here's the problem there was no way to not "dismiss" your input without going against our own wishes. Ultimately, you wanted your input to control our decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I never claimed it used up all their slots which is why what you tried to imply was ridiculous. It wasn't what I tried to imply. I don't think anyone is downplaying the damage done in war, it just has zero to do with reps. It does when you claim they got a "free pass" and could easily come back without reps. They did get a free pass unlike SSSW18, AB and TSI. The reps are significant in creating a system of fair and just peace terms as I've said a number of times. I'm talking about significance overall, not just the narrow range your defining it to be now. Not at all. Reps of 10K tech like MCXA received fills up quite a few aid slots that will now be used for internal aid and rebuilding. 200 slots for a 293 man alliance isn't very much at all. It only takes a few score of nation's slots for one cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buds The Man Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Valhalla will "reform" when they are forced to. So far no one has punished them for being a horrible alliance full of horrible people, and therefore no reformation will take place. Being punished and being shown a different way may end in the same result. I realise there are many who hate us out there and wish us crippled or destroyed. Fair enough that is something that makes this game go round and some of these feelings are understandable. Sometimes an unexpected act of kindness is more eye opening than the worst form of cruelty. Perhaps just perhaps we can all learn something here. Not saying we didnt get off light, not saying we didnt get better than what we ever expected, just saying that what was done was not lost on us. Their are no words that can prove this only our actions in the future can reflect this so I will leave it at that. Sorry to see yet another thread derailed by our terms. yeah...over 200 mill in aid just from the 40 nations of Olympus....THUS FAR...but meh. (most going outside of Olympus)...Valhalla, don't worry we are counting the days my friends. We have no worries from our purple bretheren we know your there and it comforts us greatly. FINALLY I GOT SOME STUMPY LOVE IN THE TRASH CAT wooooot poser of the week yes. ****I meant poster of the week.****** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Yay, my tribble picture was used. xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Wilson Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 How dare you compare Captain Kirk to the TPF!!!!! That's insulting to say the least! Excellent read btw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dia Lucrii Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Very good read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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