Trashcat's Corner: And They Will Look Up And Shout Save Us

[kevinkeegan]

I've never understood the amount of people who say STA is "anti-white unity." Take a look at the wiki, STA was a signatory on the very first white unity treaty. While I don't speak for .gov, I think that to say we're opposed to white unity is naive and misleading. Unity is fantastic and indeed cooperation is indeed critical to the success of a sphere, but unfortunately, most sphere unity pacts these days involve some sort of sovereignty impinging defense clause. Sovereignty is paramount to the STA in regards to individual nations as well as for the alliance as a whole, and to sign a treaty that would force our hand in military actions is viewed as quite unacceptable, even by basic membership such as myself.

[Schattenmann]

Sovereignty is paramount to the STA in regards to individual nations as well as for the alliance as a whole, and to sign a treaty that would force our hand in military actions is viewed as quite unacceptable, even by basic membership such as myself.

Say, for example, protectorates or MDPs? Laughing turnip at your expense But, seriously, I get what you're saying. Most alliances view NAPs as a speedbump not a roadblock, cancelling SNOW rather than ignoring it when the time came was the better thing to do. People will still be able to find trades on White or get a nuke rogue sanctioned with or without STA in SNOW.

[Sir Keshav IV]

No cards

Good read though.

[New Frontier]

Say, for example, protectorates or MDPs? Laughing turnip at your expense But, seriously, I get what you're saying. Most alliances view NAPs as a speedbump not a roadblock, cancelling SNOW rather than ignoring it when the time came was the better thing to do. People will still be able to find trades on White or get a nuke rogue sanctioned with or without STA in SNOW.

I'd change the trades part to "still won't be able to".

[HeinousOne]

Well he has a funny way of showing that he doesn't want an eye for an eye you know bringing up what has been done then point out how that affects what should be done in the future. I think I like umbrella's way better, where we see what will allow us to get the job done and look ourselves in the mirror the next morning, but to each his or her own.

As far as the curb stompping part the historical precedent isn't the important part, its that Tyga seems so hell bent on adopting the policies of those who have so recently been handing out curb stompings.

In summary, while you might see him as a paragon of justice, I have no reason to share your opinion and only judge him by his rather blood thristy demeanor in the valhalla peace thread and this thread.

So, I really dont know anything about you. When have you faced such odds and such destruction upon you and yours that Tyga has faced? Never? Oh you are such an honorable fellow for being able to look into a mirror at yourself and think yourself such a good fellow for bringing freedom to the world. If an alliance has handed out truly barbaric reparations after a war then they deserve to have the same done to them. You can try and label that harshly as eye for an eye or blood thirsty but to try and state that such is the regular policy of STA or Tyga is ignorance in the extreme.

What is this? Post Karma war power jockeying already?

If I may paraphrase, "It's not eye for an eye because we aren't quite as bad!". Yes you could ask for worse than 10,000 tech, but just because it's less bad doesn't mean it's good. While you maybe be striving for vengence (as honorable or dishonorable as it may be) umbrella is striving to do good. I'm not going to commend you for asking (or more accurately pestering other Karma members to ask for you) for light reps. I'll save it for alliances that strive to do good (see Gramlins, TOP and Kronos).

Did I ever claim this? I don't recall typing that STA started any war. I did imply that you planned other wars, which I'm sure you did (I mean really, I don't think STA got into the UJW merely through treaty obilgations, so were you really left out of planning it? Do you have a signed note saying so?) And if you keep putting vengence before diplomacy, then I'm sure I wont have to wait too long before I can't point one out to you.

Done and done. Sorry if it's not what you were expecting, but please read it as it is a little specific and might require more than, "Yeah, prove it" to respond to.

Oh hey look, a member of what will be the next big bloc saying that they are striving to do "good". It continues again with more post Karma War propaganda. I am sure I will get shouted down for saying such but I am betting that in the future there will be many others like you trying to shout down at those that are not as "good" as you. Hegemony rises.

[bzelger]

I'd change the trades part to "still won't be able to".

I've never had trouble with trades. White is a fine sphere.

[Deuterium Dawn]

I've never had trouble with trades. White is a fine sphere.

Took me 3 months. <3 Blue.

[Nizzle]

So, I really dont know anything about you. When have you faced such odds and such destruction upon you and yours that Tyga has faced? Never? Oh you are such an honorable fellow for being able to look into a mirror at yourself and think yourself such a good fellow for bringing freedom to the world. If an alliance has handed out truly barbaric reparations after a war then they deserve to have the same done to them. You can try and label that harshly as eye for an eye or blood thirsty but to try and state that such is the regular policy of STA or Tyga is ignorance in the extreme.

How dare you question thy savior Tygaland! He hath sacrificed much to bring light and justice to the world! Nay, nay, nay you heretic. You shall not speak ill of this God amongst men until you hath walked in his moccasins!

End of thread. I want to introduce the "Tyga Factor". Any invocation, by any member, of the history Tyga has will automatically ruin any form of actual discussion that Tyga hasn't already twisted.

What is this? Post Karma war power jockeying already?

You know, I thought this was a joke. Then I remember how threatened everyone here is by Valhalla, so it's no surprise you think an alliance the size of Umbrella would be dangerous.

Oh hey look, a member of what will be the next big bloc saying that they are striving to do "good". It continues again with more post Karma War propaganda. I am sure I will get shouted down for saying such but I am betting that in the future there will be many others like you trying to shout down at those that are not as "good" as you. Hegemony rises.

How's it different then your propaganda? "You guys are just trying to be allies with the Hegemony! You guys are weak and can't learn from the past! We know how to deal with these guys, follow us!" Or am I missing something there?

Also, I'm pretty sure if you all weren't so damned aggressive and inflammatory then you wouldn't get such a strong response. Ever think of that? Oh, of course not, most of you are fallen from grand alliances like Polar and Pacifica. You're not used to being nice.

/hides behind some solid cover

Edited May 23, 2009 by Nizzle

[HeinousOne]

How dare you question thy savior Tygaland! He hath sacrificed much to bring light and justice to the world! Nay, nay, nay you heretic. You shall not speak ill of this God amongst men until you hath walked in his moccasins!

End of thread. I want to introduce the "Tyga Factor". Any invocation, by any member, of the history Tyga has will automatically ruin any form of actual discussion that Tyga hasn't already twisted.

You are twisting my words. We all know what STA and Tyga have gone through so no need for me to go further into that. The point is your Umbrella friend is coming off as much more smug with all his talk about being able to look into a mirror and be proud of himself for doing "good". As if anyone who believes in reps would cry out in horror at seeing what they have become. What a joke.

You know, I thought this was a joke. Then I remember how threatened everyone here is by Valhalla, so it's no surprise you think an alliance the size of Umbrella would be dangerous.

Do I really need to put the list of alliances that Umbrella is included in that will more then likely become the new "hegemony" of CN? So yes, if you compare sizes Umbrella could become the new Valhalla when you put it as you did. You are quite the visionary Nizzle.

How's it different then your propaganda? "You guys are just trying to be allies with the Hegemony! You guys are weak and can't learn from the past! We know how to deal with these guys, follow us!" Or am I missing something there?

Also, I'm pretty sure if you all weren't so damned aggressive and inflammatory then you wouldn't get such a strong response. Ever think of that? Oh, of course not, most of you are fallen from grand alliances like Polar and Pacifica. You're not used to being nice.

/hides behind some solid cover

First off, I have never come out and slammed anyone for not giving reparations. During the beginning of the war I was about zero reps but I respect the feelings of my fellow tigers because I know their past is much different then mine. I would never say to them "How can you look into a mirror, do you realize how horrible you are?" because that is not true at all. I do believe that some of those that are losing this war will once again return to handing out reps should they ever grow in power. Whether or not handing heavy reps to them or white peace after this is over is the best method of possibly changing them, I do not know. I do know that opinions will differ and the way that Umbrella member tried to act the high horse was truly memorable of some others in recent past.

Finally...if you speak of that Pacifica comment in regards to me then you are definately not speaking intelligently. I learned to not play nice well before I was a Pacifican.

Just ask the Pacificans if you don't believe me.

Edited May 23, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Heracles the Great]

I was very pleased with where this thread went

Was there a response in the plans for this post?

[Heracles the Great]

So, I really dont know anything about you. When have you faced such odds and such destruction upon you and yours that Tyga has faced? Never? Oh you are such an honorable fellow for being able to look into a mirror at yourself and think yourself such a good fellow for bringing freedom to the world.

I can't speak for that particular member but I do know that many of those in Umbrella have at one point or another suffered great injustice at the hands of others. Does that actually change your opinion of their beliefs?

[HeinousOne]

I can't speak for that particular member but I do know that many of those in Umbrella have at one point or another suffered great injustice at the hands of others. Does that actually change your opinion of their beliefs?

Possibly, yes. It won't change my mind about acting in a smug way towards those who are not in agreement with you though.

[Azaghul]

No, it is a fact so obvious it didn't warrant mentioning. Add to that it was immaterial to the point I was making.

You pointed out that it uses up slots, so it was very relevant to that point.

I'm sure you are aware that in previous wars the loss of strength during the war had no part in the determination of peace terms. Alliances they fought in the past lost 75% or more of the strength and were still laboured with heavy reps payments as well as other restrictions for up to 6 months. I'm sure a symbolic reparations payment akin to MCXA's terms would have been fair and appropriate. Not to mention give some sort of consistency to the terms offered by members of the Karma coalition.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my argument. Just because it wasn't taken into account when determining terms doesn't mean that it isn't more important than terms.

I'm not saying reparations payments like MCXA's wouldn't have been more appropriate, I'm just arguing against the relative significance of them or the idea that their absence means they got a "free pass".

Who mentioned anything about big reps? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Hey if you weren't for big reps, that decreases it's significance even further.

[Gears of War]

Hey look, the sig I took 10 minutes in Paint to make is in the OP.

Contributing to the thread: Anyone in Q or 1V should have been paying reps out the wahoo. The fact they didn't only speaks to Karma's weakness.

[kingzog]

Thank you for the (sort of backhanded) good wishes, Stumpy. I like you, too. But I really do need to make a small correction.

As summarized by RandomInterrupt in another thread, Martens, with the knowledge and consent of the WUT signatories, abandoned Nordreich allowed those who refused to follow him (to NoV) to be 'branded' and hunted down.

An ugly chapter in Nordreich's history to be sure, but no....the alliance itself never disbanded. The community, of course, carried on in an informal way until the creation of the Community forums.

With regard to the end of NoV, I'm not sure "shrivel and die" is the best way to describe its ignominious end.

Many of the old resentments from Nordreich carried over to Norden Verein, and ultimately led to various splits from the alliance. When NoV was sufficiently weakened it was attacked and, after months of war, the alliance was compelled to disband or face endless war. (This may be where the confusion about disbandment originates.)

Another dark period in the community's history began....

Overcoming the longstanding grudges that led to NoV's demise took a great deal of openness, honesty and, yes, humility on the part of a lot of people. (Myself included.)

Me? I am very optimistic about the future. We have some very good people in place, fantastic friends in a number of alliances* and, slowly but surely, the Nordreich disapora is making its way home.

* For example, check out the nice graphic a friend from FAN made for us:

[Nizzle]

Hey look, the sig I took 10 minutes in Paint to make is in the OP.

Contributing to the thread: Anyone in Q or 1V should have been paying reps out the wahoo. The fact they didn't only speaks to Karma's weakness.

Yes, of course. Continue the cycle. Only when they pay reps can they learn reps are bad.

[Nizzle]

You are twisting my words. We all know what STA and Tyga have gone through so no need for me to go further into that. The point is your Umbrella friend is coming off as much more smug with all his talk about being able to look into a mirror and be proud of himself for doing "good". As if anyone who believes in reps would cry out in horror at seeing what they have become. What a joke.

Damn those people with their sense of right and wrong. What jokes they are. When will people learn that the only way to change things for the better is to do the same thing over again...just not as much?

I'm still failing to see how anyone's past factors into what the Umbrellian said. The past is the past, and I swear if I hear one more story about GW1 or GW2 I'll scream.

Do I really need to put the list of alliances that Umbrella is included in that will more then likely become the new "hegemony" of CN? So yes, if you compare sizes Umbrella could become the new Valhalla when you put it as you did. You are quite the visionary Nizzle.

Indeed, then what will become of those in this war that wish to have strong reparations paid by their enemy? Will they be another power bloc?

I cower in fear at living in the shadow of an alliance like the Gremlins or Umbrella. It's absolutely terrifying to think what they may do if they have power, after all...they gave these people white peace! They have a definition of right and wrong! They don't want REVENGE! What madmen!

Is there going to be a coherent and reasonable point anywhere in our future?

First off, I have never come out and slammed anyone for not giving reparations. During the beginning of the war I was about zero reps but I respect the feelings of my fellow tigers because I know their past is much different then mine. I would never say to them "How can you look into a mirror, do you realize how horrible you are?" because that is not true at all. I do believe that some of those that are losing this war will once again return to handing out reps should they ever grow in power. Whether or not handing heavy reps to them or white peace after this is over is the best method of possibly changing them, I do not know. I do know that opinions will differ and the way that Umbrella member tried to act the high horse was truly memorable of some others in recent past.

Really? Who else was it memorable of? I'd love to hear this.

Yet again, we come back to this victim's mentality. There is a reason for the rise of a justice system, good sir. It seems if we wanted an eye for an eye, the whole world would go blind. Am I right? Were everyone to be penalized for their past actions, I do wonder who would remain in this game as a viable power.

Before I get jumped on by someone screaming "Did I ask for them to disband? Did I ask for a viceroy? Did I ask blah blah blah"...that's obviously the end result of a semantic argument. Think more about what "eye for an eye" means. They did something bad to you, therefor something bad to them must be done.

Finally...if you speak of that Pacifica comment in regards to me then you are definately not speaking intelligently. I learned to not play nice well before I was a Pacifican.

Just ask the Pacificans if you don't believe me.

Oh, I really couldn't care less. I made that comment because some people, on both sides, forget where they started in this game and what they have done...but are so quick to only mention the positives of their history. I suppose it's called "convenience".

[KingSuck]

Believe it or not, all-out war is pretty expensive. Yes our warchests were pretty big to begin with, but they are currently no-where near what they were. I'd be mightily surprised if we managed to rebuild as fast as some of you people seem to think we will.

Other than that, interesting as always Stumpy.

[AirMe]

Believe it or not, all-out war is pretty expensive. Yes our warchests were pretty big to begin with, but they are currently no-where near what they were. I'd be mightily surprised if we managed to rebuild as fast as some of you people seem to think we will.

Other than that, interesting as always Stumpy.

This makes relative sense. And I don't want to help beat a dead horse anymore.

[HeinousOne]

Damn those people with their sense of right and wrong. What jokes they are. When will people learn that the only way to change things for the better is to do the same thing over again...just not as much?

I'm still failing to see how anyone's past factors into what the Umbrellian said. The past is the past, and I swear if I hear one more story about GW1 or GW2 I'll scream.

You see, it has already begun. Folks like yourself claiming to have a sense of right or wrong while any whom do not agree with you are out of their mind and are horribly unjust. Do you not think that NPO believes their campaign to bring Order to the world was just? It is just another world viewpoint that thinks it is the best and any others not in agreement are to be slandered.

Indeed, then what will become of those in this war that wish to have strong reparations paid by their enemy? Will they be another power bloc?

I cower in fear at living in the shadow of an alliance like the Gremlins or Umbrella. It's absolutely terrifying to think what they may do if they have power, after all...they gave these people white peace! They have a definition of right and wrong! They don't want REVENGE! What madmen!

Is there going to be a coherent and reasonable point anywhere in our future?

If everyone else has to form a power bloc as you state it wont be about reparations it will be because those you are defending are currently building a bloc that could possibly be the most powerful bloc ever. You forget history rather quickly when it suits your purpose.

Really? Who else was it memorable of? I'd love to hear this.

Yet again, we come back to this victim's mentality. There is a reason for the rise of a justice system, good sir. It seems if we wanted an eye for an eye, the whole world would go blind. Am I right? Were everyone to be penalized for their past actions, I do wonder who would remain in this game as a viable power.

Before I get jumped on by someone screaming "Did I ask for them to disband? Did I ask for a viceroy? Did I ask blah blah blah"...that's obviously the end result of a semantic argument. Think more about what "eye for an eye" means. They did something bad to you, therefor something bad to them must be done.

Oh, I really couldn't care less. I made that comment because some people, on both sides, forget where they started in this game and what they have done...but are so quick to only mention the positives of their history. I suppose it's called "convenience".

Oh, now I am putting forth a victim's mentality? No, I am simply putting forth a defense of folks to believe as they wish and that there can be a difference of opinion. Obviously you do not buy into that mindset. As for your views of a justice system it is obvious that the justice system you wish to point towards has done well in stopping crime from happening right? A justice system that thinks it is all about rehabilitation by showing what proper action is will have to continually have to do such. Sometimes right does have to be made with might. It is a shame you shall selectively avoid such past lessons. Then again these friends of yours will have the might to back up their "good" worldview won't they?

You may try to dismiss your own statements if you like but I would ask that you do not as it would steal all the fun from the rest of us.

Edited May 23, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Nizzle]

You see, it has already begun. Folks like yourself claiming to have a sense of right or wrong while any whom do not agree with you are out of their mind and are horribly unjust. Do you not think that NPO believes their campaign to bring Order to the world was just? It is just another world viewpoint that thinks it is the best and any others not in agreement are to be slandered.

Now we are completely away from your initial statement where you scolded someone for not having "faced such odds and such destruction upon you and yours that Tyga has faced?"

I also haven't called anyone evil, but enjoyed mocking your demonization of Umbrella.

If everyone else has to form a power bloc as you state it wont be about reparations it will be because those you are defending are currently building a bloc that could possibly be the most powerful bloc ever. You forget history rather quickly when it suits your purpose.

So now you are threatened by other alliances? What history am I forgetting that is so important? Do you even remember some of the reasons stated for this "Karma" alliance?

Oh, now I am putting forth a victim's mentality? No, I am simply putting forth a defense of folks to believe as they wish and that there can be a difference of opinion. Obviously you do not buy into that mindset. As for your views of a justice system it is obvious that the justice system you wish to point towards has done well in stopping crime from happening right? A justice system that thinks it is all about rehabilitation by showing what proper action is will have to continually have to do such. Sometimes right does have to be made with might. It is a shame you shall selectively avoid such past lessons. Then again these friends of yours will have the might to back up their "good" worldview won't they?

Might makes right? Dear me, now YOU sound like the Hegemony! Not Umbrella and friends! Maybe both of you are!

You're putting forth a defense of someone's opinion, stating everyone can have a differing opinion, by arguing against another opinion? Really? I'm arguing the validity of an opinion, not someone's right to have it.

Yet again, what relevant history can you display which forecasts this trend?

You may try to dismiss your own statements if you like but I would ask that you do not as it would steal all the fun from the rest of us.

I don't think I dismissed any statement. I did say I couldn't care less about your response.

[bzelger]

This makes relative sense. And I don't want to help beat a dead horse anymore.

Come now. It's not going to beat itself.

I would like to say that I quite like Umbrella. I would also venture to opine that there would be nothing accomplished even if somebody "won" this silly argument.

[Trace]

The spelling errors in this issue make me sick.

[Nizzle]

Come now. It's not going to beat itself.

I would like to say that I quite like Umbrella. I would also venture to opine that there would be nothing accomplished even if somebody "won" this silly argument.

What? You mean someone can win the argument?

*scurries off excitedly*

[HeinousOne]

Now we are completely away from your initial statement where you scolded someone for not having "faced such odds and such destruction upon you and yours that Tyga has faced?"

I also haven't called anyone evil, but enjoyed mocking your demonization of Umbrella.

I scolded because tyga's opinion is based directly upon the treatment he has received and he might feel that those who delivered such will not know the true depth of their actions without feeling such themselves.

So now you are threatened by other alliances? What history am I forgetting that is so important? Do you even remember some of the reasons stated for this "Karma" alliance?

Yes, I do remember and once again it seems I must state for you my personal feelings that reps are not necessary but I defend the right of others to think such is what should happen. Then we see you and yours willing to take all the help from the Karma leaders and the Karma bank but when it comes to terms you dont want them to say anything. So who the hell are you to bring up any reasons stated for this by Karma leaders? You certainly didn't pay any attention to them all when it came time to surrender terms.

Might makes right? Dear me, now YOU sound like the Hegemony! Not Umbrella and friends! Maybe both of you are!

You're putting forth a defense of someone's opinion, stating everyone can have a differing opinion, by arguing against another opinion? Really? I'm arguing the validity of an opinion, not someone's right to have it.

Yet again, what relevant history can you display which forecasts this trend?

Come on, certainly your reading comprehension is better then this. The Citidel's new bloc with the new members (when it comes out) will have the might to make whatever it wishes be right. Hence why the leaders of that future bloc are not really caring much for what other Karma alliances wish for. How you are flipping that to be that I am saying might makes right I do not know.

I don't think I dismissed any statement. I did say I couldn't care less about your response.

Your continuous responses say otherwise.