Hey-ho hey-ho it's off to work we go

[Caliph]

see now youre just making stuff up as you go. i thought this was about tpf/pc relations, when i call you out, you change the details and claim you were right the whole time. thats bull****

Cute.

So you weren't here for it, and you know the here and now, so since what I mention is in the past 2 years it must be false?

I admit I do not follow your logic. Feel free to peruse the CN wiki, or read about the history of planet Bob and the actions of the players.

I am not changing details, I am saying that TPF has acted badly towards not just PC, but other alliances. It is their collective actions, and not any one particular action, that has put them in this situation. It is not one action performed once, but a multitude of actions performed consistantly for the past 2 years that has TPF in this situation.

Edit: To clarify, TPF's actions towards PC has caused PC to want to war with them. TPF's actions towards other alliances have caused them to want to war with them. It is TPF's actions towards PC that caused PC to enter the war against them. It is TPF's actions towards others that have caused the other alliances to hit TPF.

TPF finds itself at war with multiple alliances not because of their treatment of PC, but of their treatment over all those other alliances, and for their treatment of others in a consistant manner.

Am I making sense here?

this is more bull****. 'hegemony' is not perpetuating crimes right now. i could list fan, gato, a host of items from the gga, but it doesnt matter because none of it is the here and now. only this war is here and now, and o i criticize your hypocrisy. you say you stand against injustice yet perpetuate the same injustices as the past. oh, and you might want to take note here that i hardly support every action the 'hegemony' has made. instead of making things up about me.

Hegemony is not perpetuating crimes at this current point in time, that is correct, however that is because they are not able to. When we have put criminals in jail, it is no wonder they have not committed more crimes, however if they so chose they could commit more crimes.

The Hegemony is on punishment, has been sentenced, and is living out its sentence at this current point in time with a further arraignment at a later date. They are in this situation for their consistant actions over a long time period. It is not just 1 or 2 incidents, it is a consistant pattern of behavior over years. They have treated others much more horribly than they are being treated now, and it is for this reason that you are not being taken seriously.

Do your homework. Research the past 2 years on the CN wiki. Talk to people who were there, on both sides. Try to get an understanding of what happened, because like in most things, this war didn't just happen for the heck of it. This war happened for a reason. The events of this war didn't occur in a vacuum, event A occured because event B occured as a result of treaty C being cancelled and alliance D getting rolled and ...well you get the picture. Events are interconnected.

These alliances in this war all have a history. Hegemony alliance's history shows harsher and harsher surrender terms being given after each and every war, it shows wars being fought with false CB's, and sometimes no CB's at all. When people spoke out against their actions, their party line was "Do something about it".

Well, we are doing something about it right now.

These alliances find themselves in this war based on their consistant actions over years. They have had a predictable set of behavior, and that is diplomatically isolate an alliance, make up or use a spy to obtain a CB on the alliance, and then hit them, and when their treaty partners come in, hit them too, and in the end make demands that the defending alliances pay the agressors for the damage they took in their agressive war.

If you are against Karma's policies, that is fine, however know what Hegemonies policies are as well, so you know who you are defending.

i admit it, i laughed. youve got a great stand up routine here man. honoring treaties! haha!

The TPF/PC NAP treaty was a joke, anyone who read the text on the treaty knew it was worthless. As for honoring treaties, Avalon honored their treaty, as did RAD, as did a multitude of alliances on both sides of this war.

As for not honoring treaties, do you know that MCXA, NATO, NPO, Echelon, IRON, and others on the "Hegemony" side have refused to honor treaties, or outright dropped treaties, with alliances in the exact same manner that Sparta and MHA have acted towards NPO in this war?

This is hardly the first time treaties were not honored in a war, however this is the first time treaties were outright ignored by the side that the NPO is not on or actively supporting.

the actions of every leader of pc from since its inception. thats what im referring to. pc are arrogant and hateful, full of malice and with zero sense of honor. i think it funny that you have yet to directly deny that claim i make.

So the actions of every TPF members since PC formed don't count? There is bad blood on both sides here, it is not unilateral.

ok now im really going to bed i promise

Sweet dreams.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Caliph

[mhawk]

Cute.

So you weren't here for it, and you know the here and now, so since what I mention is in the past 2 years it must be false?

I admit I do not follow your logic. Feel free to peruse the CN wiki, or read about the history of planet Bob and the actions of the players.

I am not changing details, I am saying that TPF has acted badly towards not just PC, but other alliances. It is their collective actions, and not any one particular action, that has put them in this situation. It is not one action performed once, but a multitude of actions performed consistantly for the past 2 years that has TPF in this situation.

Edit: To clarify, TPF's actions towards PC has caused PC to want to war with them. TPF's actions towards other alliances have caused them to want to war with them. It is TPF's actions towards PC that caused PC to enter the war against them. It is TPF's actions towards others that have caused the other alliances to hit TPF.

TPF finds itself at war with multiple alliances not because of their treatment of PC, but of their treatment over all those other alliances, and for their treatment of others in a consistant manner.

I suppose on the other hand you should be held accountable for all actions that have occurred on your IP? Well some would say yes, I would say no. The philosophical reasoning on that is the same, one targets the crimes committed by the leader/s of the nation/alliance. Supposedly each ruler is different and allowed a new start by forces that are anti EZI folks. How is that different than allowing an AA new start when all the decision makers that made past decisions are outside the alliance, or fully retired now? How even more hypocritical is it when individuals that committed the crimes call out people completely unrelated to those crimes just because they switched AA?

[Caliph]

I suppose on the other hand you should be held accountable for all actions that have occurred on your IP? Well some would say yes, I would say no. The philosophical reasoning on that is the same, one targets the crimes committed by the leader/s of the nation/alliance. Supposedly each ruler is different and allowed a new start by forces that are anti EZI folks. How is that different than allowing an AA new start when all the decision makers that made past decisions are outside the alliance, or fully retired now? How even more hypocritical is it when individuals that committed the crimes call out people completely unrelated to those crimes just because they switched AA?

To that I respond to you with the One Vision/GATO war 1 year ago.

I also point out the grudge NPO held over Legion for 2 years.

Simply put, the Hegemony, TPF's closest allies, your gov and membership, have supported wars in which the offending parties have been long since removed from their positions they held when they commited the offense.

GATO got rolled because Chris Chaos was back in their alliance at one point, but was gone from their alliance when NPO rolled them.

Hyperion got rolled because someone aided Chickenzilla's reroll, however they did not know that said nation was Chickenzilla's reroll.

Your alliance has supported stances like the one I am defending here, and used such logic and the exact same argument in wars, or in direct support of wars, in the past.

Why is now any different?

Why shouldn't TPF be held responsible for what you gov has done in the past, when you have held other alliances responsable for what their gov had in the past?

Why should we treat you any different than how your alliances treated others?

I appreciate your new stance, however I cannot help but wonder if you truly mean this, or if you are simply stating this as hopes that this is what we want to hear?

I personally agree with your words here, however I am raising the valid question: your alliances has treated others the same way I have described to you. Why should we treat you differently? Why should the standards TPF imposed on other alliances not apply to TPF itself now that TPF doesn't have the power to impose their will on others at the moment?

[mhawk]

To that I respond to you with the One Vision/GATO war 1 year ago.

I also point out the grudge NPO held over Legion for 2 years.

Simply put, the Hegemony, TPF's closest allies, your gov and membership, have supported wars in which the offending parties have been long since removed from their positions they held when they commited the offense.

GATO got rolled because Chris Chaos was back in their alliance at one point, but was gone from their alliance when NPO rolled them.

Hyperion got rolled because someone aided Chickenzilla's reroll, however they did not know that said nation was Chickenzilla's reroll.

Your alliance has supported stances like the one I am defending here, and used such logic and the exact same argument in wars, or in direct support of wars, in the past.

Why is now any different?

Why shouldn't TPF be held responsible for what you gov has done in the past, when you have held other alliances responsable for what their gov had in the past?

Why should we treat you any different than how your alliances treated others?

I appreciate your new stance, however I cannot help but wonder if you truly mean this, or if you are simply stating this as hopes that this is what we want to hear?

I personally agree with your words here, however I am raising the valid question: your alliances has treated others the same way I have described to you. Why should we treat you differently? Why should the standards TPF imposed on other alliances not apply to TPF itself now that TPF doesn't have the power to impose their will on others at the moment?

You say "you" (referring to me) quite a bit, yet I still fail to see how when most of our gov now was in Elysium, we supported those actions? I seem to recall the majority of "our gov" and "our members" that made those calls are the ones currently ATTACKING US.

Edited May 12, 2009 by mhawk

[xoindotnler]

Ask The Phoenix Federation and Valhalla if we have been fighting.

This is a DoW?

So declare more FFS, less talking more fighting.

[Caliph]

You say "you" (referring to me) quite a bit, yet I still fail to see how when most of our gov now was in Elysium, we supported those actions? I seem to recall the majority of "our gov" and "our members" that made those calls are the ones currently ATTACKING US.

Alliances are responsable for the actions of their leaders.

Remember that little gem that TPF and your allies spouted so many times in the past?

How does the fact that some of those members aren't members any more absolve TPF of that guilt when ...oh, lets see, when Chris Chaos not even in Planet Bob anymore didn't save GATO from getting rolled by One Vision?

TPF has supported alliances getting rolled and dismissed such facts as 'but those members or gov members aren't even in the alliance anymore' as not good enough to stop them from getting rolled.

I know TPF didn't roll GATO, but TPF supported that war.

Why then shouldn't we support a similar treatment of TPF?

I personally agree that a current gov shouldn't be judged for the old gov's actions completely, however the alliance must live with its gov's actions. However I also firmly believe in treating other people the exact way they treat others.

TPF treated others in this same situation as guilty.

Why then shouldn't we judge TPF using TPF's own logic?

[Jens of the desert]

address my points and not the age of my nation please

also try not to contradict yourself in the same line (bolded)

ok ok i promise this is my last post for real.

[ooc]night all dont get too worked up about pretend politics... though knowing how things work round these parts thats not likely to happen [/ooc]

Maybe I should put the words into inverted commas to make the sarcasm more obvious?!

This is definitely one war where it helps to be older to see the whole picture although normally age doesn't count for much.

[The AUT]

Hey, you guys have more pages in your war declarations thread than actual declarations!

Avalon, your revelation is upon you. That one declaration on your nation.. it's over call it a day.

[mhawk]

Alliances are responsable for the actions of their leaders.

Remember that little gem that TPF and your allies spouted so many times in the past?

How does the fact that some of those members aren't members any more absolve TPF of that guilt when ...oh, lets see, when Chris Chaos not even in Planet Bob anymore didn't save GATO from getting rolled by One Vision?

TPF has supported alliances getting rolled and dismissed such facts as 'but those members or gov members aren't even in the alliance anymore' as not good enough to stop them from getting rolled.

I know TPF didn't roll GATO, but TPF supported that war.

Why then shouldn't we support a similar treatment of TPF?

I personally agree that a current gov shouldn't be judged for the old gov's actions completely, however the alliance must live with its gov's actions. However I also firmly believe in treating other people the exact way they treat others.

TPF treated others in this same situation as guilty.

Why then shouldn't we judge TPF using TPF's own logic?

So lets say I as leader of TPF perma ZI and attacked TFO. After the war I resign and you become leader of TPF. I join whatever alliance you are and call you out for TPF's perma ZI of TFO. Now lets go farther and say that the majority of membership in TPF when I perma zi'ed TFO also went to your alliance, and your alliance members went to TPF. Should you be judged for my actions? Could I morally cite that as some sort of justification against TPF?

My argument is no. An AA is more about the people, culture, and decision making element, than some arbitrary letters that carry sins of the father with it. Had TPF merged into Elysium, would elysium have been guilty of TPF's sins? The argument is very much the same as IP's and you can take my word and actions on EZI stuff or not, but that is my personal and thus TPF's position on the matter.

Edited May 12, 2009 by mhawk

[Caliph]

So lets say I as leader of TPF perma ZI and attacked TFO. After the war I resign and you become leader of TPF. I join whatever alliance you are and call you out for TPF's perma ZI of TFO. Now lets go farther and say that the majority of membership in TPF when I perma zi'ed TFO also went to your alliance, and your alliance members went to TPF. Should you be judged for my actions? Could I morally cite that as some sort of justification against TPF?

My argument is no. An AA is more about the people, culture, and decision making element, than some arbitrary letters that carry sins of the father with it. Had TPF merged into Elysium, would elysium have been guilty of TPF's sins? The argument is very much the same as IP's and you can take my word and actions on EZI stuff or not, but that is my personal and thus TPF's position on the matter.

Personally, I agree with you here to an extent.

I never supported the Hegemonies line that "an alliance is forever responsible for the actions of its government".

Governments can change. I have seen alliances killed off, and kept down, because some refused to believe they could change. I've seen alliances being told to change or get rolled, and then while they were changing they got rolled anyway.

I agree that a new government should not bear the sins of the old government, however the alliance must always bear the sins of the government. You can right some wrongs, however it takes time and effort to show that the alliance has truly changed.

So far all I see is posts from you that state how you want to repair relations with PC.

If TPF had gone through with your plans on hitting PC and PWN a few weeks ago, I wonder if you would be stating these same things now.

I wonder how much of this is truly what you believe, and not what you think we want to hear.

[mhawk]

So far all I see is posts from you that state how you want to repair relations with PC.

If TPF had gone through with your plans on hitting PC and PWN a few weeks ago, I wonder if you would be stating these same things now.

I wonder how much of this is truly what you believe, and not what you think we want to hear.

There were never plans to hit PC or PWN. The last time a war was even considered against PC was in early November. Even then it was only considered briefly before I decided against pursuing any course of action like that.

These talks of hitting PC are lies and rumors. Infact I went to twisted and other PC gov members to inform them the stuff they were hearing was from Sponge and the result of a counter spy operation. I even showed the evidence of the operation. I had talks with CTB stating we were not going to roll anyone and that we considered the issue between TFO and IRAN resolved when TFO returned admin controls of IRAN's forums.

There were never plans to attack pc and we were in full contact with PC gov relating to ALL rumors we encountered regarding a TPF PC war. These communications were however ignored or considered tricks.

Edited May 12, 2009 by mhawk

[xoindotnler]

Avalon, your revelation is upon you. That one declaration on your nation.. it's over call it a day.

Correction two .

[Shurukian]

The thought of RAD made your alliance surrender. How does it feel?

You made a miserable decision signing a treaty with a pathetic alliance in The Phoenix Federation. Pay for the decisions you've made.

At least your leader acknowledged this mistake to some extent and surrendered.

Time for Avalon to find this revelation. Until that time, we'll FORCE it.

Excuse me, but I acknowledged no such thing. All I acknowledged was that TSI had put up a good fight and spent our resources. I also knew that TFO would be asking for nice reparations. My 'folding' was simply to the effect that if I wanted to be able to pay these reparations, we would have to bow out now, before RAD unleashed on us. I apologize that you see that as acknowledging that TPF is wrong in some way, because I never said such a thing. I'm proud to be a TPF protectorate, and no war will change that. TFO and IS were good partners to fight, and I wanted to ascertain that we could get them what they wanted Reparations wise. (Within reason.) I see no strategy in letting another alliance hit us simply to decimate our reserves and rendering us not only incapable of paying TFO and IS, but also having us owe reparations to RAD as well. Or perhaps you could point out the strategy in such?

I don't really understand what you're trying to play here. First you tell me that warning me of RAD was something to help TSI, to prevent us from getting hammered. Now you're saying it was simply to make us fold? If we had 'loved our infrastructure' we would have never entered the war in the first place. I would expect that since we acted with honor towards you, and your protectorates, we would receive the same. I would hope that I am not wrong in that sentiment. You tell me you're glad we're out of the war, since you don't mind us, now you tell us we're dishonorable for surrendering?

Twisted, you know I enjoy our conversations, but I must ask that if you have respect for me, you will have respect for my members as well, regardless of your disagreements in opinion. I would also probably suggest sober posting.

That is all.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Shurukian

[TwistedRebelDB47]

I don't really understand what you're trying to play here. First you tell me that warning me of RAD was something to help TSI, to prevent us from getting hammered. Now you're saying it was simply to make us fold? If we had 'loved our infrastructure' we would have never entered the war in the first place. I would expect that since we acted with honor towards you, and your protectorates, we would receive the same. I would hope that I am not wrong in that sentiment. You tell me you're glad we're out of the war, since you don't mind us, now you tell us we're dishonorable for surrendering?

RAD was coming to end the war. I don't care what your reasons were for leaving, or the time frame. RAD was coming to help out our protectorates and I trust they would have been able to seal the deal as soon as they got involved. I told you that RAD was coming as reinforcements to make you rethink your decision of staying for another day or two. Is it worth it to you to do two days more damage to TFO/IS and eat RAD's nukes? I think we both can agree that the decision was no.

Letting you know RAD was coming was to your benefit and ours. It prevented TSI from taking unneeded damage, and it prevented TFO and IS from taking unneeded damage. The only loss was for RAD missing out on some war, but I made sure we could get my boys right back in.

EDIT: Regardless, good luck to our brothers at The Forsaken Ones helping us take care of business with Avalon! I couldn't ask for better friends and allies than the crew we got today.

Edited May 12, 2009 by TwistedRebelDB47

[Kevin Cash]

So you weren't here for it, and you know the here and now, so since what I mention is in the past 2 years it must be false?

I admit I do not follow your logic. Feel free to peruse the CN wiki, or read about the history of planet Bob and the actions of the players.

ive been an observer for some time. i need not possess a nation to be an observer. trust me, i am well versed on history.

TPF finds itself at war with multiple alliances not because of their treatment of PC, but of their treatment over all those other alliances, and for their treatment of others in a consistant manner.

so people like the ccc were mistreated by tpf?

The Hegemony is on punishment, has been sentenced, and is living out its sentence at this current point in time with a further arraignment at a later date. They are in this situation for their consistant actions over a long time period. It is not just 1 or 2 incidents, it is a consistant pattern of behavior over years. They have treated others much more horribly than they are being treated now, and it is for this reason that you are not being taken seriously.

no, the reason im not taken seriously by you is because i dont stand behind the karma agenda. make no mistake about that.

Do your homework. Research the past 2 years on the CN wiki. Talk to people who were there, on both sides. Try to get an understanding of what happened, because like in most things, this war didn't just happen for the heck of it. This war happened for a reason. The events of this war didn't occur in a vacuum, event A occured because event B occured as a result of treaty C being cancelled and alliance D getting rolled and ...well you get the picture. Events are interconnected.

i know how things work around here, which is why i always found it amusing how much people whine about casus bellis as they rarely if ever are more than a grain of sand in the clockwork of cybernations.

These alliances find themselves in this war based on their consistant actions over years. They have had a predictable set of behavior, and that is diplomatically isolate an alliance, make up or use a spy to obtain a CB on the alliance, and then hit them, and when their treaty partners come in, hit them too, and in the end make demands that the defending alliances pay the agressors for the damage they took in their agressive war.

If you are against Karma's policies, that is fine, however know what Hegemonies policies are as well, so you know who you are defending.

half of those now on your side were, right up until this war, a part of the 'hegemony,' will they also be held accountable for their actions, or do they get a free pass for ditching their allies?

The TPF/PC NAP treaty was a joke, anyone who read the text on the treaty knew it was worthless. As for honoring treaties, Avalon honored their treaty, as did RAD, as did a multitude of alliances on both sides of this war.

the argument is 'poison clan didnt break the treaty because they broke the treaty.' this argument does not even follow as a logical statement, it contradicts itself, it is nothing less than absurd. clauses like that are included to absolve the other party of obligations should one decide to break their promise and their word.

As for not honoring treaties, do you know that MCXA, NATO, NPO, Echelon, IRON, and others on the "Hegemony" side have refused to honor treaties, or outright dropped treaties, with alliances in the exact same manner that Sparta and MHA have acted towards NPO in this war?

i do not support any alliance ditching their allies for any reason. i do not support those past actions nor do i support the dame dishonorable and cowardly acts carried out today. though i will note as far as npo goes, polaris betrayed them and put them in a very tight spot. they clearly made the wrong decision in abandoning their allies, however, it was not a cold calculated decision like most other cases, so i reserve a little bit of judgment towards them specifically.

[Kevin Cash]

RAD was coming to end the war. I don't care what your reasons were for leaving, or the time frame. RAD was coming to help out our protectorates and I trust they would have been able to seal the deal as soon as they got involved. I told you that RAD was coming as reinforcements to make you rethink your decision of staying for another day or two. Is it worth it to you to do two days more damage to TFO/IS and eat RAD's nukes? I think we both can agree that the decision was no.

Letting you know RAD was coming was to your benefit and ours. It prevented TSI from taking unneeded damage, and it prevented TFO and IS from taking unneeded damage. The only loss was for RAD missing out on some war, but I made sure we could get my boys right back in.

EDIT: Regardless, good luck to our brothers at The Forsaken Ones helping us take care of business with Avalon! I couldn't ask for better friends and allies than the crew we got today.

nukes are used in tech raids to end the raid and make the nation pay up. i see no difference here. your protectorates bit off more than they could chew by entering this war, they cried to you for help, and then you extorted their opponents.

there is zero difference, and your attitude towards tsi in this thread does not incline me to believe otherwise.

[cowen70]

Syndicated: I do love kirk but I prefer the cigar smoking bourbon drinking image

Mhawk: No reply? No internet on your island?

Kevin: You are just one giant propaganda machine?

To be honest I'd be pleased if those who would arge with kevin the one stop PR machine could do it outside the thread as he is quite capable of distorting threads for 40 pages or more.

[mhawk]

I wonder, there must be a vast disconnect between you and the other members of your gov and membership. Did they ship you off to an island with a box of cubans and a bottle of rum? (which to be fair sounds great)

I ask because anyone who bore witness to the interactions between TPF and PC knows that the war has been coming for a long long time. The only thing that prevented it was heightened tensions in Q and the possibility of a bigger war as far as I am concerned. Yes you could have beaten them initially but settled for repeatedly kicking them in the and then I suspect a large portion of your AA began to regret this and really wanted to hit them but found themselves unable.

Maybe thats not your opinion, but if it is I hope the view is nice and the cigars plentiful.

Edit: On a different more ontopic note. Our MoW was brand new to the AA as the war kicked off. The fact remains I and others took on superior numbers and came off better. Then when numbers looked like evening out then surrender was swift. I wish Avalon only the best in this, I already have at least one competent opponent.

The reason we did not hit PC in nov was because a large portion of my members voiced they liked PC. Now pretty vocal for hitting pc were guys like Kilkenny/wing ect that had OOC surrender terms presented to them by PC during the polar war. Yeah there is alot of bad blood between those guys. However if my guys wanted to go hit pc, they were more than welcome to go rogue out of leave the AA, but it was always 100% clear anyone under TPF followed my and our gov's lead and to that extent there was no plan to hit PC. When I let PC off it was slayer and some old school retired guys that told me I'd regret it. I feel if you want to make the suggestion that I was too hopeful and committed to peace when I "should" have been pursuing continued isolation and war, then you are right and I was wrong. But to be faulted for erring on peace is not a horrible crime and I told those that criticized my release of PC that I could live easier with that than the mindless extermination of a bunch of former members.

[AnCapistan]

Yes sir, 10,000 tech is surely too high! Especially when its all paid for!

Good Luck TFO.

Um....so I guess it's all alright when they tie up your aid slots with their 150/3 mil tech "deals" and plunge you further into bill-lock.

TSI got horrible terms. I'm at MCXA and I can't say I was "happy" with the terms but they were certainly fair.

TSI has to pay more tech than us and what they're like 1/20 th of our size.

And Jesus you Karma types are becoming exactly like what you claim the Hegemony to be.

Twisted I talked to you alot when I was MoW of TFO and I never saw this from you.

You guys basically pulled a TSO and took TPF's members. Difference is you never manned up to your mistakes and payed reps like TSO did.

/me tips hat to TSO <3

And you are essentially abusing the entire prospect of "Karma". Karma is a universal force. TSI do not give up hope you will rebuild.

EDIT: Repeat

Also

Calling in treaty partners is how inter-alliance warfare works, stop whining about it. Reparations aren't anything new either so I don't understand why its so terrible to be doing tech deals where you're being paid for the tech instead of having to just straight up pay 7K tech without compensation for it.

TPF will never be in a position to do that to my alliance. So...ok.

HAHAHAHAH

As I recall TFO's former Duke got all mad and made a basic cry for support on the OWF saying that TFO will prevail and that the 4 people ganging up on them would die (This was when SLDR, TSI, IRAN etc. attacked).

Let me find that topic...one second please

FOUND: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55236

Edited May 13, 2009 by Mr Damsky

[Ivan V]

Fight well, Avalon!

In before profiteering peace deal.

lol j/k

Edited May 13, 2009 by Ivan V

[Guffey]

Fight well, Avalon!

In before profiteering peace deal.

lol j/k

we have alot of fight left is us with only 39 nations.

TFO- 38 nations,

RAD-46 nations

PC- 74 nations

and yet we still stand. throw some more at us will ya?

[SyndicatedINC]

we have alot of fight left is us with only 39 nations.

TFO- 38 nations,

RAD-46 nations

PC- 74 nations

and yet we still stand. throw some more at us will ya?

Ask an ye shall recieve my fellow lord. Unfortunately this leaves us in a tough spot, we have tried to fill as many requests to dance as possible however we are currently full up on partners (read ooc: outgoing slots) so unfortunately we may have to insist that more of our enemies use the self service pumps (read ooc: defensive slots). Unfortunately not enough have chosen to avail themselves of this opportunity.

[popsumpot]

This thread is a massive copy right infringement.

UCN has declared monopoly on all bunny love here!

/me prepares the UCN war machine to take back our bunny honour.

[Newhotness]

PC threatened to have us rolled with MDP's and then we were extorted. I have an odd feeling that if TPF ever did the same to your alliance you wouldn't consider it a fold either.

*My own opinion, not TSI's.

This isnt directed at you specifically but the people who are using the "we were threatened then extorted" argument.

1. Oh noes, big bad RAD is gonna attack you! Run!

Seriously? from all the trash talk ive seen on OWF we arent that big of a deal, so why run from the fight?

2. If you knew you were being extorted, and the terms were that bad, why did you agree to the terms? If it was that bad, you might as well have kept fighting.

Now all you guys are doing is sitting back, out of the war, and complaining in every thread anyone affiliated with PC makes. just get over it and pay the reps. You dont have to like any of us but dont !@#$%* and whine in every single thread.

[Augustus Autumn]

This isnt directed at you specifically but the people who are using the "we were threatened then extorted" argument.

1. Oh noes, big bad RAD is gonna attack you! Run!

Seriously? from all the trash talk ive seen on OWF we arent that big of a deal, so why run from the fight?

As Shurukian pointed out, it comes down to simple combat effectiveness. There was zero point in the Initiative remaining in the fight to simply provide defensive slots for RAD to occupy and that was that. I don't believe at any point I've sat back and laughed at the combat abilities of RAD (though I've certainly questioned your methodology of declaring wars ). By saying "Hey, if you don't surrender before X time RAD will be declaring war" there's an implicit threat there. It's called the carrot-and-stick method. It simply comes down to whether or not you believe that the information given about RAD's intentions was truly meant as a kind heads-up or whether it was meant in a less-than-polite manner.

2. If you knew you were being extorted, and the terms were that bad, why did you agree to the terms? If it was that bad, you might as well have kept fighting.

Now all you guys are doing is sitting back, out of the war, and complaining in every thread anyone affiliated with PC makes. just get over it and pay the reps. You dont have to like any of us but dont !@#$%* and whine in every single thread.

Here are the two options that were given:

1. Accept surrender terms being dictated by a person who began by making an unreasonable demand and would not take advice or redirection from others present on that side of the table (persons from two other alliances and a Karma mediator)

-or-

2. Receive attacks from three alliances (RAD, Poison Clan and Lone Star Republic) including nuclear bombardment on nations unable to resist the strikes with no reasonable expectation on the part of the Initiative for a change of circumstances for the better (basically, just taking damage for the hell of it with no gain and no change to the reparations being asked for)

Given those options, the leadership of the Initiative made the better choice as I see it. Certainly, the personal complaints being lodged by members of this alliance can be seen as "whining" and if that's how they are going to be perceived I won't argue the point. Did we have to surrender? No, there was no reasonable way for any of the alliances fighting us to take direct control of our nations and force the acceptance of terms (OOC: hijack our accounts). Would it have been irresponsible for the Initiative's leadership to not make the choice we did? I think so. I certainly have my pride but I'm not willing to put it ahead of those persons who have entrusted the well-being of their nations to myself and, more importantly, the Empress.

Does that mean people should be thrilled about having to pay reparations? I don't think so. Certainly members of other alliances, when faced with what they saw as uneven reparations demands, have publicly expressed their displeasure with them (see: Athens, Mushroom Kingdom, GATO, FAN, etc.). People are going to do so here as well and I'll support their alliance-given right to free speech no matter what. Should the day come when RAD or any other alliance finds itself in a position of having been unfairly treated as they see it (I actually never want to see this happen, believe it or not) you'll find me there supporting your rights as well. And yes, you can hold me to that.

As I said before in this line of discussion, I'll be taking note of the performance and conduct of The Forsaken Ones on this new front. They've chosen to make a new effort in this war and I'm more than willing to reserve judgment on their future conduct as the future is not set in stone and people can learn. When all is said and done we'll see how things go.