Justice For Traitors

[President Obama]

What's wrong with more conflict? This is a game, only 3 weeks ago people wanted more conflict....Conflicts keep this game interesting.

I agree. All[Well, not all] anybody complained about in the just finishing era of the Continuum was that things were to boring and the game was stagnating, so it's hypocritical to want the 'opposition' gone from the game(mainly the NPO at this point, still a very formidable power when they get a peace treaty).

It would be horrendous to drive the former leaders of the hegemonic structure from the game and leave it to Karma alliances/NpO/TOP alone.

[Homura]

I stopped reading there. Seriously have you been paying any attention to what has been said so far? Karma never pretended to be a world police of any kind.

Great, you missed out on the best part of my post, and completely misrepresented my point. I'm amazed.

[Haflinger]

They started THIS war. So its logical that they pay for their aggressiveness. Its as easy as that.

Ah, as I've said elsewhere I would be greatly surprised (and in a good way, heh) if the terms agreed to at the end of this war were simply designed to repair OV. It seems perhaps that you're one of the people who like that idea. They appear to be pretty few and far between on your side; with luck the NPO's terms will reflect that idea, but I honestly doubt all of =LOST=, DICE, Vanguard, VE, Sparta, R&R, MOON, UCR, International, FOK, OV, Avalanche, GUN, GR, GOD, and RoK will agree with you.

[Doitzel]

What's wrong with more conflict? This is a game, only 3 weeks ago people wanted more conflict....Conflicts keep this game interesting.

Open conflict is good, keeping in mind that conflict does not equal war. People need to take it to these boards and smack each other around. If you think sponge, Schatt, and I are going to be your dancing monkeys after this war then you've got another thing coming.

Everyone has come out of the woodwork and is saying what they think -- well, everyone but NPO, but we don't need them contrary to their belief -- for this war and you know what? This is the most fun this game has been in years. We needn't let it die with the last white flag. Alliances need to get rid of this gag order and radio silence bullcrap and get out here in the mud with everyone else. You got a beef? Come out here and start picking fights. Fun for the whole family. I don't want to see people moaning about a lack of entertainment. This is a group effort here, people: what you give is what you get.

Personally I'm getting a little sick of conflict. I'm gonna sit in a nice, soft recliner, buy a little infra, maybe sell a little tech, and moan about the lack of entertainment.

[Doitzel]

-Edit: Double

Edited May 6, 2009 by Doitzel

[Mogar]

Open conflict is good, keeping in mind that conflict does not equal war. People need to take it to these boards and smack each other around. If you think sponge, Schatt, and I are going to be your dancing monkeys after this war then you've got another thing coming.

Everyone has come out of the woodwork and is saying what they think -- well, everyone but NPO, but we don't need them contrary to their belief -- for this war and you know what? This is the most fun this game has been in years. We needn't let it die with the last white flag. Alliances need to get rid of this gag order and radio silence bullcrap and get out here in the mud with everyone else. You got a beef? Come out here and start picking fights. Fun for the whole family. I don't want to see people moaning about a lack of entertainment. This is a group effort here, people: what you give is what you get.

Personally I'm getting a little sick of conflict. I'm gonna sit in a nice, soft recliner, buy a little infra, maybe sell a little tech, and moan about the lack of entertainment.

^Post moar, arguing and tensions on the forums are what make war fun, GW2/3 Era anyone?

[Gruthenia]

Without someone breathing down my neck i would eventually grow bored with the game because competition itself is the main fuel here.

So NPO want it all and they think everyone else has either 2 options - bow down to them or stay against them. Well in the end they're right (as you can see lol), but the main issue at hand is that no one else besides them ever played to win so far, everyone just molded their FA policies to fit NPO's.

Anyway my point is taking NPO's fangs off won't change much. If anything they're a predator we are somewhat used to and people know what to expect of them and that they will aim for #1 again. Without treaties someone would take their place or CN would just become stagnant again because alliances within the hegemony won't know who to follow around.

Well, nature abhors a vacuum, so I imagine, cut off from NPO's leadership, the hegemony as a collective would break up, and you'd see something of a scramble among the Karma alliances, as well as perhaps some of those fighting with Karma but not as part of Karma, to get them in their corners in a realignment. And I think the Karma side has proven themselves to have some ambition by having the guff to fight a winning world war.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

I would really like for people to understand that I am crying out against the lenient terms. I don't believe in forcing alliances to disband. But I believe that due punishment should be given to all of the alliances on the other side of the war, and I am shocked and angry (As MANY are) that some of them are getting away so lightly.

I presume you've communicated your shock and anger to Mr Moldavi, in light of the NSO's announcement of white peace with TPF?

[Proxian Empire]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything that Wentworth has just said. If there is a lesson to be learned from the fall of the Hegemony, it is that force is not the best means of maintaining order on Planet Bob. I'm interested to see if this lesson gets learned by the folks who will now be taking the reigns.

Of course you would say this after MCXA greedily stole from Polaris at the end of the war. Why wouldn't you want easy surrender terms when you are on the receiving end? How hypocritical of someone flying MCXA AA.

[Haflinger]

Of course you would say this after MCXA greedily stole from Polaris at the end of the war. Why wouldn't you want easy surrender terms when you are on the receiving end? How hypocritical of someone flying MCXA AA.

Perhaps everyone in TSO, TOP, FOK, R&R, Fark & Umbrella who received Polaris tech should also be forced to return it.

Eh, plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

[Proxian Empire]

Perhaps everyone in TSO, TOP, FOK, R&R, Fark & Umbrella who received Polaris tech should also be forced to return it.

Eh, plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

I dare you to find a quote of me suggesting that those cowards should get away with the tech they stole from Polar. I have never indicated that in the slightest, and if you knew anything about me then you would know the bullcrap that those ridiculous cowards in TSO put me through for the past half of a year through secret terms and forcing me out of alliances.

[Haflinger]

I dare you to find a quote of me suggesting that those cowards should get away with the tech they stole from Polar. I have never indicated that in the slightest, and if you knew anything about me then you would know the bullcrap that those ridiculous cowards in TSO put me through for the past half of a year through secret terms and forcing me out of alliances.

Ahhh, there's the Penchuk I knew from before. I missed ya.

[pasquali]

the irony is that it is people with your extreme mentality that validated npos fears and caused them to act the way they did

when ov conspired with blackstone, it is this mentality which affirms their fears that they were defending their very right to exist

Their very right to exist...

Oh, yeah, I remember that right. It's the one they took away from several other alliances.

[KingSuck]

sparta, mha, fark, gremlins, top, the rest of citadel (minus og), and of course who can forget our favorite alliance odn

these people ignored their obligations as well

the only difference is they didnt make up for their mistake by later entering to atone for their mistake, each of them ignored their obligations to the so-called 'hegemony' side until the treaties on the karma side finally chained their way up to them so they could betray those who lifted them to the level they are at now (with the exception of the optional defense network who simply jump ship every time a big war comes their way)

may i ask, margrave, what sort of punishment you have in mind for these people, who are arguably worse that those who atoned (ie admitted) for their mistake by entering anyway?

or are they somehow justified because this thread only exists for you to rage at the other side for being 'evil' or whatever the hell it is you actually believe, and this is merely a convenient cover for your true feelings?

i also enjoyed the part were you raged at the fact that innocent alliances who merely honored their word got white peace. what crime are these alliances guilty of, a number of them small protectorates who, ignorant of global politics, are entering to defend the only friends they know. seriously, the op makes you look like the biggest fool if one only takes a minute to read between the lines, but then, that was alwas who you really were, right, margrave?

(in before ad-hominem attacks)

This post seems to have been ignored over the hustle and bustle of this thread. Any chance it could be answered? I'm quite interested in hearing the response.

[HellAngel]

This post seems to have been ignored over the hustle and bustle of this thread. Any chance it could be answered? I'm quite interested in hearing the response.

Meh i tried to call him out but he didnt reply. I dont think the accusations at the beginning were thought through, but i actually agree with the second half. Honoring treaties should not result in ridiculous surrender terms.

[SoxNation]

Meh i tried to call him out but he didnt reply. I dont think the accusations at the beginning were thought through, but i actually agree with the second half. Honoring treaties should not result in ridiculous surrender terms.

yeah what obligation does the FCC have to the Hegemony side, all of our MDP's are on the other side and OG went in based on a treaty, we had no obligation (nor did they ask us) to defend them.

so thats retarded.

[Ceremony]

I think it is clear that the original theme of this thread has been proven to be very much a minority opinion, since even the OP's own alliance granted white peace to TPF, one of the alliances which canceled their MADP with NPO.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Ceremony

[shahenshah]

yeah what obligation does the FCC have to the Hegemony side, all of our MDP's are on the other side and OG went in based on a treaty, we had no obligation (nor did they ask us) to defend them.

so thats retarded.

Where is FCC mentioned in that post?

Let me tell you, I haven't heard a single negative vibe coming out from a single IRON member about FCC and interestingly most of the people who are hitting us. It will be the silence of the friends that will be remembered, at least on my own personal level. You guys are honoring your obligations. We are honoring our obligations and we are paying the price for being silent partners for whatever happened...and we're taking it on the chin, but I cannot say the same for every alliance.

But I wish them good luck, they have taken their paths, we take ours, and it is not like we are forcing them to do anything, We are just happy that we fight along our friends, who are with us, through thick and through thin...and some friends who maybe on other side but atleast are making genuine attempts to balance their obligations even in such messy situation. I am proud of those alliances that have gone through thick and thin, there are few on Karma's side too who have fulfilled their obligations during rough times like STA etc and I genuinely respect them for that.

Edited May 6, 2009 by shahenshah

[agafaba]

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become a villain"

I dont hold any illusion that this is the end of tyranny and war, just a slight delay until someone replaces them.

inb4 Karma 2.0 year 2010

[shahenshah]

I dare you to find a quote of me suggesting that those cowards should get away with the tech they stole from Polar. I have never indicated that in the slightest, and if you knew anything about me then you would know the bullcrap that those ridiculous cowards in TSO put me through for the past half of a year through secret terms and forcing me out of alliances.

Well people may have perceived that about you because mostly only certain alliances are the subject of your posts and not every other that may not be now on our side. But its good to see more objectivity in your posts.

[shahenshah]

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become a villain"

I dont hold any illusion that this is the end of tyranny and war, just a slight delay until someone replaces them.

inb4 Karma 2.0 year 2010

I hope there are no karmas and counter-karmas in future, rather, bloc fights and not curbstomps and yea, not repeated beatings of 'hegemony' either, that would be sucky

[Proxian Empire]

Well people may have perceived that about you because mostly only certain alliances are the subject of your posts and not every other that may not be now on our side. But its good to see more objectivity in your posts.

No one should assume that critic of the Hegemony suggests forgiveness or blessing of the other traitors who served their NPO masters willingly. This includes TOP, TSO, TORN, and others who will get their share of karma down the road. The work has only just begun.

[Dochartaigh]

If honesty was a characteristic that would be rewarded on Bob I am sure quite a few people could answer that. In your mad haste to scramble to the public stoning of the NPO you seem to have overlooked some rather obvious facts. Karma my fat Aunty.

HellAngel speaks of Gramlins style justice and if Gramlins=Karma, I would be far more comfortable, because I trust them to at least be responsible. Some of the others among you, not so much. Back stabbing scum calling other people cowards doesn't sit well with me. Most of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and judge yourself by the very standards you seek to set.

Margrave, tactically you may well be right. Crushing the NPO makes perfect sense, beat them within an inch of their life, give them terms that beat the ones Polaris received, berate them, mock them, ridicule them... then I and many others will be coming for you, because you will be what you detested. Kicking any alliance repeatedly in the head is not good form and never will be. The thing that defines polite and honorable society (that which Karma preaches by their default official position) is how we treat everyone, not just those who it is convenient to do so.

Punishment, revenge, judgment, it all seems to make so much sense. I can tell you I didn't need a beating to learn a lesson and I certainly did not need to fund the tech spent in this war either. So now will the NPO fund the next war against whoever you cut from the herd next?

People have asked me repeatedly why I do not support Karma's cause, you need look no further than Margrave as a shining example of why. Having lived through the beating Polaris received, the crippling reps and the removal of well-loved and long serving members of our alliance, I was reminded of what I do not want to happen to others ever again. The funny thing is I didn't need the lesson, I was in an alliance that disbanded rather than accept the Hegemony and their stupid terms. Until Karma, as a whole, shows they intend to treat their prey with fairness and real justice then I will continue not to support the rubbish that gets posted here.

Whilst I have the greatest respect for both LiquidMercury and Archon, I am genuinely afraid that Pandora is out of the box and that not even their responsibility and good sense will control people seeking revenge for every slight over the past 3 years. I am encouraged by the terms issued and accepted so far, but we all know that Old Guard were largely protected by their Bloc mates on Karma's side. Lets see what happens when Valhalla, TPF, IRON and the NPO are offered terms. That is the chance to show I was wrong and I will gladly admit it if and when I am.

Here is AlmightyGrub's pro-tip. Let bygones be truly bygones when this war is over. Wipe the slate clean and start again, you will find it as refreshing as I did. It is funny when you talk to the other side, after the dust has settled, you find that most of the time you aren't really all that different.

If it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees, perhaps not forcing people to live on their knees will breed a different world?

I have to agree a lot with this post. Too many times I am seeing posts quite similar to Margraves and it shames me for being on Karma's side. NPO does deserve worse terms than any other alliance on the Hegemony side but that is due to them causing this war and as some vindication for past actions. I am not saying treat them as they have treated others because then we are no better than the NPO. those who seek true karma and true retribution have only achieved a single goal, maybe even without realizing it. You have become NPO. you have become that which you are fighting and which you speak out against. I have never liked hypocrisy and this (Margrave's post) is by far the biggest pile of hypocritical !@#$ i have ever read.

Margrave points to alliances that have disbanded such as IAA, Gen[m]ay, \m/ and i point to Vox Populi (though they are now receiving peace on many fronts), FAN (think they are too), and OcUK (who also got peace) as to how an alliance does not disband unless they damn well want to disband. i do not blame anyone for the disbandment of any alliance but said alliance as i nor you nor anyone can physically disband an alliance. if an alliance decides to disband, then that alliance must not have been that important to the members of said alliance. Hell, I stated during the SPW, that I would have continued to fight for Polaris no matter the odds, even ending up like FAN if necessary. Those who do not have that willpower or loyalty to their alliance should look themselves in the mirror and ask why. If it is the leadership, then the members should look at their leaders and wonder why they are leading the alliance. but i digress.

If this war only serves to have Karma alliances end up becoming the "monsters" we are fighting, then it has accomplished nothing but serve as a catalyst to the "I told you so" that would come from NPO. and frankly, who wants that?

fake edit: I read to like page 2-3 and was tired of reading so much bs being spouted from the Karma side.

[SoxNation]

Where is FCC mentioned in that post?

Let me tell you, I haven't heard a single negative vibe coming out from a single IRON member about FCC and interestingly most of the people who are hitting us. It will be the silence of the friends that will be remembered, at least on my own personal level. You guys are honoring your obligations. We are honoring our obligations and we are paying the price for being silent partners for whatever happened...and we're taking it on the chin, but I cannot say the same for every alliance.

But I wish them good luck, they have taken their paths, we take ours, and it is not like we are forcing them to do anything, We are just happy that we fight along our friends, who are with us, through thick and through thin...and some friends who maybe on other side but atleast are making genuine attempts to balance their obligations even in such messy situation. I am proud of those alliances that have gone through thick and thin, there are few on Karma's side too who have fulfilled their obligations during rough times like STA etc and I genuinely respect them for that.

"sparta, mha, fark, gremlins, top, the rest of citadel (minus og), and of course who can forget our favorite alliance odn

these people ignored their obligations as well"

did you read the post i was responding to? that is what I was taking objection to, the claim that the FCC ignored our obligations.

[Dochartaigh]

Of course you would say this after MCXA greedily stole from Polaris at the end of the war. Why wouldn't you want easy surrender terms when you are on the receiving end? How hypocritical of someone flying MCXA AA.

funnily enough, my anger followed TSO instead of stayed with MCXA. to me it is TSO that did the harm to Polaris as those in TSO were most of the gov in MCXA at the time of the terms. but c'est la vie.

also, hello.