Congrats to Sparta

[Bob Janova]

No, it is not.

MHA stated that their treaty with Grämlins pre-empts all other treaty obligations.

Grämlins were involved in the planning of this war at the top of the coalition leadership.

Was MHA unaware of Grämlins planning a war against their allies?

We were not planning a war against anyone, we were coordinating a defence against a possible attack on our friends and allies. Turns out that was a good idea, since the Hegemony did attack our allies by proxy and the defence was well coordinated.

You can make 'planning a war' claims all year and they still won't be true. The fact is, if Hegemony had not been planning a war, and had it not actually started one, then we wouldn't be here and Sparta would still be chilling below IRON.

And no, MHA was not unaware of the fact we were preparing a potential defence.

[Solace19k]

Why would we derail someone's topic that was meant merely to congratulate for a pass. (However a temporary pass, as we all know war stats are misleading.)

Why argue over something that could be as simple as "We like Athens a whole bunches, Whichever side they choose, we will defend."?

Or something as complex as "Our programs have to be halted, so and so is on vacation. My grandmother uses the internet to shop for doodads every weekend and we have this super secret pact with a magic 8 ball that decides all of our maneuvers on planet bob as well as in real life. Not to mention we are drunk 90% of the time."

My point is, Unless you are Spartan government and were actually part of the plans whatever they may have been.

Every motive you are drafting for Sparta is purely speculation and therefore accomplishing nothing but throwing a thread started by an outside party off topic and turning it into a troll cave.

In no way do I speak for Sparta's official stance on any of this, but I believe one of the greatest strategic minds in history stressed the importance of deception in warfare. This applies to many walks in life as well. Assuming that people in decision making positions are aware of this pretty famous "manual" in many Alliances, one can merely draft theories of motives and potential outcomes of this complicated scheme. Rendering pretty much every "opinion" moot and invalid. Both of which in my opinion don't belong in this thread. That's just me though ... anyway back to my landshark ...

Congrats Sparta either way. Although I'm quite sure we were happy where we stood before the war as far as rankings in the sanction race, and honestly could care less about holding on to number 2 or even number 1.

[Shinpah]

the only legitimate reason to declare on an ally is if they were actively and obviously planning to harm your alliance. you are traitors, 'bawww they didnt tell us about the war' is not a valid reason to not only throw your defense obligations out the window but later directly attack your so called 'ally.' i will agree that you did not have to uphold the aggression end of the treaty but thats it.

the whole 'treaties dont chain' idea is just a convenient excuse for people to not honor their word, and i call !@#$%^&* on it. when you sign a treaty, its not for show, its your word, and sparta among others has demonstrated that their word is utterly worthless

I do believe that they stopped being an ally once the treaty was cancelled.

Also, because OV has a MDoAP with Vanguard, who is a member of C&G, which includes Athens, which has a MDoAP with Sparta: an attack on OV is an attack on Vanguard is an attack on Athens is an attack on Sparta.

[The AUT]

I do believe that they stopped being an ally once the treaty was cancelled.

Also, because OV has a MDoAP with Vanguard, who is a member of C&G, which includes Athens, which has a MDoAP with Sparta: an attack on OV is an attack on Vanguard is an attack on Athens is an attack on Sparta.

Funny how now treaties are allowed to cascade based on a selective basis. Anyone else getting this comedic gold?

[Feanor Noldorin]

So yes, I agree with Heft's post and congrats to TOP for being skilled opportunists.

We side with Hegemony then people will say we've betrayed Gramlins/Umbrella/FOK/MHA/FCC.

We side with Karma and people say we betrayed IRON and Old Guard.

We stay neutral and we are mocked for being stat collectors.

Those are some really great options aren't they? Of course those three options don't even mention how we spent days of our time trying to broker a peace agreements between the initial parties involved just to have our oldest treaty partner attack OV during those talks. I understand if your simple mind can not properly comprehend the incredibly complex nature of this war for us so atleast have some good sense to shut your mouth when you are talking about subjects that you know nothing about.

[Mogar]

I think IRON will bounce back quickly if they get peace anytime soon. It doesn't look like anyone is interested in giving NPO decent/any peace, though. They're dropping at about 500k a day so TOP and Sparta will pass them in a few days. Sparta seems to be losing much less NS than the other major alliances so #1 should be theirs by the time NPO drops below them.

As Sparta's MoD just said, their top tier nations are not fighting.

I do believe that they stopped being an ally once the treaty was cancelled.

Also, because OV has a MDoAP with Vanguard, who is a member of C&G, which includes Athens, which has a MDoAP with Sparta: an attack on OV is an attack on Vanguard is an attack on Athens is an attack on Sparta.

Hey man, whatever you want to say to get you into the war.

We side with Hegemony then people will say we've betrayed Gramlins/Umbrella/FOK/MHA/FCC.

We side with Karma and people say we betrayed IRON and Old Guard.

We stay neutral and we are mocked for being stat collectors.

go with the stat collectors option and let everyone else blow themselves up.

[Shinpah]

Funny how now treaties are allowed to cascade based on a selective basis. Anyone else getting this comedic gold?

Now? :lol:

I don't speak for Sparta, but I do believe that the only alliance they have an MADP with didn't active the aggression clause, meaning the only treaties that they must uphold are those that are defensive treaties, which they have done.

Hey man, whatever you want to say to get you into the war.

Actually my alliance declared on an ODP >_>

Edited May 4, 2009 by Shinpah

[youwish959]

Are you referring to the part in the War of the Coalition where Sparta was jumped by 10 alliances and then pleaded for assistance from Q, or the part of that war where Sparta came into the war of their own accord via treaties and such and kept Greenland Republic (as I recall) busy so that Valhalla and GGA (as I recall) could fight off those attacking them.

One of those scenarios is correct, one of them involves Q helping Sparta and one of them the other way around. Try and figure it out

From who? GR? Really? Lawlz. And let's be honest, we didn't start it either

To say that tC isn't beneficial at all to Sparta is a lie tbh, but to say that Sparta needed it for the protection is pure hokum.

I'm referring to the part where your obligations to the Continuum kept you from having to honor your obligations to Polaris due to the superseding clause.

[Azrael Alexander]

We side with Hegemony then people will say we've betrayed Gramlins/Umbrella/FOK/TOP/RoK/Sparta/TAB/Fark

We side with Karma and people say we betrayed NPO/Zenith/TORN/NATO

We stay neutral and we are mocked for being stat collectors and cowards

Point well made i thought i would show it for MHA as well

[WalkerNinja]

We side with Hegemony then people will say we've betrayed Gramlins/Umbrella/FOK/MHA/FCC.

We side with Karma and people say we betrayed IRON and Old Guard.

We stay neutral and we are mocked for being stat collectors.

Those are some really great options aren't they? Of course those three options don't even mention how we spent days of our time trying to broker a peace agreements between the initial parties involved just to have our oldest treaty partner attack OV during those talks. I understand if your simple mind can not properly comprehend the incredibly complex nature of this war for us so atleast have some good sense to shut your mouth when you are talking about subjects that you know nothing about.

Fea, please try to express yourself as monosyllabically as possible in the future. This will reduce confusion.

[Geiseric]

I'm referring to the part where your obligations to the Continuum kept you from having to honor your obligations to Polaris due to the superseding clause.

Obligations to Polaris? Uh, okay, and we didn't even get to touch them... she said she was 18 though.

[Andrewbw]

as your alliance's MoD, I wouldn't be publicly stating your big nations don't want to fight or are inactive.

And what great, sound political advice you just keep on giving. I love it

[ROMMELHSQ]

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=29470

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=84186

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...?Nation_ID=5394

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=90642

Theres an interesting sample size for you. NPO has 4 100k NS nations come out of peace mode 3-4 days ago (making them the 4 strongest for NPO in the war), more than half of the wars their in are aggressive ones declared by NPO, and you'll notice not a single Sparta nation on any of them (despite the fact that 40% of the nations 100k NS plus in alliances at war with NPO are in Sparta).

Head shot

[Mogar]

Actually my alliance declared on an ODP >_>

I know, you declared on me )): =WE= )):

And what great, sound political advice you just keep on giving. I love it

It's a gift, what can I say?

[Haflinger]

We were not planning a war against anyone, we were coordinating a defence against a possible attack on our friends and allies.

I suppose the fact that the alliances currently arrayed against the NPO and her allies are the same ones that were proposed somewhat famously as an anti-NPO force something like six months ago is just a coincidence then?

My dear Bob, I don't believe in coincidences.

[Ejayrazz]

I suppose the fact that the alliances currently arrayed against the NPO and her allies are the same ones that were proposed somewhat famously as an anti-NPO force something like six months ago is just a coincidence then?

My dear Bob, I don't believe in coincidences.

Everyone is anti-NPO these days if there is merely a disagreement in beliefs of playing the game. I guess that makes NPO anti-Gremlins, anti-MK, etc etc?

Really. No.

[Mogar]

Everyone is anti-NPO these days if there is merely a disagreement in beliefs of playing the game. I guess that makes NPO anti-Gremlins, anti-MK, etc etc?

Really. No.

I'm anti NPO and I fought on their side for gods sake.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Matthew Conrad]

Sparta, quit BSing us. You knew exactly how the sides would potentially line up. You knew that you would most likely be on the winning side. You guys aren't exactly known as big dice rollers. You just started flopping a bit early, so you could avoid some of this conjecture. You guys didn't leave Q until you were fully sure that you would be protected and had multiple assurances.

It can be seen that you guys just used Q as a house for protection, because in the same thread that you announced your withdrawal from Q, your friendly Ephor of Foreign Affairs, George the Great was already insulting the Continuum. IN THE SAME THREAD AS YOUR LEAVING THE CONTINUUM!!! Funny how opinions change so quick, eh?

Because publicly we decided not to embarrass Q while we were still technically allied, we are terrible people right? Why don't you look at other alliances that bashed us for canceling our treaties with them in the same thread. This was before the war so you can stop that whining before you start. If you want to distort things rather than see them for what they are because they aren't convenient for your personal grudges, fine.

I could easily say NSO just entered the war after it had been well decided so they could get an easy victory. See what I did there? But the difference is that I know that's not true because I respect Ivan enough to know he joined the fray to aid friends rather than for a petty personal gain.

[OverCaffeinated]

Is it ok to say congratulations to Sparta still or has this thread gone past that already?

Congratulations anyways and I hope your stay near the top of the list is a long one.

[Ejayrazz]

I'm anti NPO and I fought on their side for gods sake.

I think classifying alliances as anti-NPO, when in fact they are not, is illogical. I lead my alliance at one point, I think I would know. We have people who like them and we have people who hate them, like every other alliance, even their OWN allies. Hell, not every ally of ours has members that likes us, you can't please them all, but to put an anti-NPO label on an entire alliance?

Anti-NPO alliances are those like Vox, BS, FAN, etc.

[supremelord]

Is it ok to say congratulations to Sparta still or has this thread gone past that already?

Congratulations anyways and I hope your stay near the top of the list is a long one.

No, it's not too late. Thank you. Also thank you to all of the other posts of congratulations. I hope that IRON and the rest of our allies are able to quickly recover from this war.

Edited May 4, 2009 by supremelord

[shahenshah]

TPF maybe but Iron interesting? For always following NPO's footsteps?

Please! We didn't hassle the entire world to join Coward coalition for nothing!

-

I foresaw this comming the moment the rumour mill started Sparta-Q problems and the logs being leaked and all. However, many have gone up and down in such ways. Through trick or treat, Sparta gains a rank and I congratulate Sparta for that. It is there moment, lets not be party poopers. I doubt any alliance can claim higher ranks with a 'spotless' record.

It is fair to criticise certain actions, but it will be hypocritical to say Sparta was the only one, we aren't living in Utopia. I may not agree with certain recent actions of Sparta for obvious reasons, but this is a Game of Politics and war and if one packs the emotions in a suitcase and thinks rationally, they at least deserve a congrats if not anything else.

Personally tho, I'm a TOP or IRON fanboi for the #1 spot. Now I just hope Spartan recruitment drive isn't as competitive post war ;D

Edited May 4, 2009 by shahenshah

[Matthew Conrad]

the only legitimate reason to declare on an ally is if they were actively and obviously planning to harm your alliance. you are traitors, 'bawww they didnt tell us about the war' is not a valid reason to not only throw your defense obligations out the window but later directly attack your so called 'ally.' i will agree that you did not have to uphold the aggression end of the treaty but thats it.

the whole 'treaties dont chain' idea is just a convenient excuse for people to not honor their word, and i call !@#$%^&* on it. when you sign a treaty, its not for show, its your word, and sparta among others has demonstrated that their word is utterly worthless

First, if NPO recklessly declared war on all of Citadel for "spying" without warning any of their allies of their intention or motive, and Citadel's allies come running to defend them, Sparta is expected to drop their treaties with our other allies and exclusively protect NPO despite the fact they knowingly put us in danger too?

I'll do you one better. NPO did actively plan to harm our alliance by proxy by planning the demise of OV. They should have known starting a war like that would put us in danger too so they expect us to destroy ourselves defending an ally who doesn't respect us or even keep us in the loop about their military actions? By your "rules" we were then not obligated to defend them. Any way you slice it, you're incorrect about us.

Second, you didn't answer my question about your apparent creation of a new account just to harass us.

EDIT: Thanks, I personally hope IRON rebuilds swiftly. If you guys overtake us that's cool; I personally don't care if we are #1, #2, or #3. Doesn't really make a difference.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Duncan King]

Wrong on so many levels, never thought I would see jab shots with illogical measures coming from you. We are STILL fighting IRON and it is STILL a good war on the upper levels. Look at our stats, we are involved in wars with higher nations, a simple nuke can take thousands of NS away. We are kicking $@!, but we are still taking damage. Yeah, we're cowards because we are helping FARK. Gremlins were in from the beginning and we are fighting an alliance doing pretty damn well, you're actually insulting IRON's warring capabilities. Try the whole "Gremlins is being dishonorable" rant, but it isn't going to get you anywhere.

You were like the second or third alliance to declare, it's not like you were the vanguard going in against impossbile odds.

We side with Hegemony then people will say we've betrayed Gramlins/Umbrella/FOK/MHA/FCC.

We side with Karma and people say we betrayed IRON and Old Guard.

We stay neutral and we are mocked for being stat collectors.

Those are some really great options aren't they? Of course those three options don't even mention how we spent days of our time trying to broker a peace agreements between the initial parties involved just to have our oldest treaty partner attack OV during those talks. I understand if your simple mind can not properly comprehend the incredibly complex nature of this war for us so atleast have some good sense to shut your mouth when you are talking about subjects that you know nothing about.

Fea, please try to express yourself as monosyllabically as possible in the future. This will reduce confusion.

Wow, I disagree with you and suddenly I'm stupid. You didn't even bother with the argument, you went right to the insult. I'm sorry if I'm too dense to understand the great intellectual body that is TOP. We may disagree, but that doesn't make either of us stupid.

Citadel and those MDPs are non-chaining and OG entered under an MDP of its own. Nice try though.

The thing about optional clauses in treaties is they're really useful. When you honor them, you have honor but when you sit on your hands and let an ally die, it's no skin off your back. Creative treaty planning can mean that you have allies on all sides and don't actually have to choose a side if you aren't 100% positive that you would win. Is it possible? Yes. But is it something that you should do? No. I think there is something to be said for choosing a side and going with it, not pretending to be neutral and then jumping in once it's clear who the sides are and which side is stronger. But this conversation is not about me and I'm leaving it now.

Congratulations to Sparta. I remember when you were founded as a splinter of OIN and I'm happy to see you doing well.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Duncan King

[Heft]

How was what top did any different with that the MHA did? It should have been very clear to our allies that we did not want this conflict? The only mistake we made was we really did not need to join in the fight with IRON but it was at the request of the Grämlins.

MHA made an announcement stating that you would simply not honor certain treaties. TOP is among the handful of alliances that have at least made some attempt to try and reconcile their conflicting obligations in a decent way. MHA is among the larger crowd that decided to just give up on that and ignore the obligations you didn't like. MHA is also among the more select group (along with Sparta) that directly benefitted for a long period of time from your relationship and connection with the NPO and with the "hegemony" and have now turned your back them. Yes, they made a mistake, and maybe you disagree with how they've played the game for awhile now, but you benefitted from it, and from their actions, and you cannot simply walk away from them and act as if you've been opposed to them all along. Gramlins left Q months ago, long befor ethere was any assurance that it would play out like this, as did FOK. I have my own disagreements with both of them, but I can at least respect that they moved on when they felt it was time, and didn't continue to enjoy the benefits and privileges of being in that power bloc right up until it collapsed.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Heft