erikz Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I skim reviewed a bit and actually couldn't find any on my brief glance over the last several pages. Only saw the iFOKers, my apologies. Those two iFOKers used to be FOKers and voted on the Q matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkphysics Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 The argument regarding purpose is that exposing a leader's negative qualities isn't all that conducive to Vox's long term goals against the hegemony. At least that's what I got from Delta's excellently written post. Unfortunately, the more insightful and subtle arguments are overlooked and the debate devolves to one side characterizing the other with the arguments of the lowest common denominator. I think it's perfectly fine to be debating the motives/purpose behind this thread. What else would we be talking about? How evil Reyne is? I think the OP got that covered. I guess for me the motives seem pretty clear and leave nothing to debate. It fits VP's goals as it appears they are trying to expose more of the back room talk to let those not privy to such see what it is actually like. The methods of war that are afoot with VP and their enemies is espionage. Espionage entails exposing information, undermining plans, destroying confidence, and pitting allies against each other. How would this edition fit into that war method? 1. Expose information that is privy to only certain individuals (check) 2. Undermining plans (not in this issue, but they have done it before) 3. Destroying confidence (many tC alliances have expressed publicly a confident attitude towards defeating VPs efforts, but logs and other exposed information makes one wonder if that confidence level is still so high?) 4. tC alliances have admitted to using tactics to root out spies internal to their walls. Like it or not, this involves allies questioning each others trust (naturally) so they have accomplished that. Reyne is a leader who is part of VP's biggest enemy. How could attacking her character and exposing her special interest not serve towards the end game of the VP war machine? You don't defeat the entire army as a whole ... you break it apart and attack the segments. Not every move by VP would need to be an attack on NPO or the tC as a whole. VP I would surmise sees Reyne as a tool to be used to fuel anti-hegemonic thought as her character portrayed here leaves much to be desired and with her track record exposes the train of thought that is desired among VP's enemies. Did this issue server all the above purposes? Nope not at all, but it did server a purpose towards their 'war' machine and like it or not, it was successful. No matter how much the opponents downplay the seriousness or severity of the comments etc, people read this and do not dismiss it so lightly when considering one's character. You would be foolish to do so. How is this ironic? Also, how is it not the best defense? If her allies obviously have seen the positives in her to outweigh the negatives in all the time they've been allied to OG, then what makes you think seeing rehashed information is going to change any minds?Delta's post I was referencing: You are taking the perspective that they want to turn her defenders against her. I don't believe VP is trying to change your mind, but rather expose her character to those who are not so sure or not so clear on it. I do not know Reyne beyond what I see here, and that is enough to let me know I would think long and hard before I entered a form of agreement with her or her alliance. Much how the GGA thread exposed a lot of issues which any alliance should consider when working with them. The irony is your defense is really a confirmation of what they are saying. VP did not alleviate towards the 'working things out in the end' part as they knew you would. What they did is they controlled your response. They gave you only one option in 'defending' her actions and that option was not really a defense but a reaffirmation of her character and insights towards it being difficult to work with her even though the end results may be achieved. Manipulation 101 pretty much. By all means though, disregard what I say and continue to engage in the debate. I'm just a lowly observer in the matter and enjoy the ongoing discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotherington Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I asked him to ask Doch because he is an ex-polar who believe the war was justified. He isn't argueing whether the war is justified he is calling you out on holding OG and polar to completely different standards. In one case, you say certain behaviour demands an attack, in another you say it is perfectly acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 And I will assume based on your non-response that you are you are incapable of intelligent debate. I'll debate you when there is something to debate. I don't particularly care about Sponge, only the irony of you responding to a complaint that you commit character assassination against him by making a post that consisted entirely of a character assassination. Whether your statements were true or not, it's still an irony that appears to be lost on you. Of course, I can't blame you entirely, since I only just noticed the irony of you then responding to me with exactly the same tactic. It happens to all of us it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMMELHSQ Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) He isn't argueing whether the war is justified he is calling you out on holding OG and polar to completely different standards. In one case, you say certain behaviour demands an attack, in another you say it is perfectly acceptable. I didn't see anything in the screenshots that imply Reyne threatening an allaince. She just quoted me and agreed that she hates alliance X, Y, Z. How does make it the same as polar screenshots which had things like swearing that when TOP get isolated they will get them?? Not to mention the long hostile history. edit: grammar Edited March 25, 2009 by ROMMELHSQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 He isn't argueing whether the war is justified he is calling you out on holding OG and polar to completely different standards. In one case, you say certain behaviour demands an attack, in another you say it is perfectly acceptable. Exactly. Thank you. Now let's see if anyone else can understand this concept. I didn't see anything in the screenshots that imply Reyne threatening an allaince. She just quoted me and agreed that she hates alliance X, Y, Z. How does make it the same as polar screenshots which had things like swearing that when TOP get isolated they will get them?? Not to mention the long hostile history. Probably because the content you are talking about does not exist. There were no plans to do anything to TOP, and I have seen the information stolen from Polar by spies. It does not contain what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James IV Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Don't assume there hasn't been an apology just because it wasn't posted here. I know I have had my issues with OG and Reyne these last few months, but I am not lying when I say I think we have come out of this a stronger and tighter bloc than any time since Umbrella has joined. With the extent of the ignorance which plagues posters in this thread, I doubt any of you will believe me though. Perhaps it is VP's interest to make sure their saviors are closer for the upcoming war? I believe there is an old saying, "To get at what is strong, you must attack what is weak". Of course it could just be mere speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 With the extent of the ignorance which plagues posters in this thread With selective screenies, that's always been the purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMMELHSQ Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Probably because the content you are talking about does not exist. There were no plans to do anything to TOP, and I have seen the information stolen from Polar by spies. It does not contain what you are saying. polar, as far as i know, confirmed the screen as legit, but said it was posted because frustration and didn't really mean it. So no, the content was there. On a less serious note, why are you still crying about that war?? don't you and the community always ask for drama and war?? we did our share last summer and provided some entertainment, now its the others turn as their duty to the community. Edited March 25, 2009 by ROMMELHSQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotherington Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 No wars took place this summer, only executions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxNation Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 polar, as far as i know, confirmed the screen as legit, but said it was posted because frustration and didn't really mean it. So no, the content was there.On a less serious note, why are you still crying about that war?? don't you and the community always ask for drama and war?? we did our share last summer and provided some entertainment, now its the others turn as their duty to the community. You are both correct in a sense, though I think you are exaggerating Rommel. I know the screen shot you speak of, it actually said something to the effect that we will do all we can to be nice to TOP, but eventually because they hate us, we will have to fight them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Cousteau Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 On a less serious note, why are you still crying about that war?? don't you and the community always ask for drama and war?? we did our share last summer and provided some entertainment, now its the others turn as their duty to the community. The community craves war. Not gang beatings. We wish to ride off into a war with a cause. No one can respect those who participate in these gang beatings, that end in disgustingly high reps. And to tell you the truth, the war on Polaris was a side show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenzilla Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Well I can see this went well. Just a reminder that Reyne Mordigan's Greatest Hits II: Electric Bugaloo will be appearing in a new addition of The Tattler, coming soon!I do find it heartening that after months of us doing this stuff the hegemonic crowd still doesn't have the answer to their most important question: why? The fact you all can't figure that out is exactly why this world is slowly slipping through your fingers like so many grains of sand. I don't think they want to admit that they are no longer as Anu Drake once said "Kings of the World". People speak their mind now. Oh, and for people who can't comprehend the purpose of the article, did you ever think it might have been to drive Citadel closer together, and Old Guard to prefer Citadel to The Continuum when the time really matters? On a less serious note, why are you still crying about that war?? don't you and the community always ask for drama and war?? we did our share last summer and provided some entertainment, now its the others turn as their duty to the community. Bah, I started that war way better than you did. Go start a war without my help. Edited March 25, 2009 by Chickenzilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 It's not about responses or age. It's the fact that she said them at all. Every person has to answer for their actions at one time or another. I would say for a she-tyrant like Reyne, today is that day. "She-tyrant"? What? Reyne is good people. Honest and wonderfully blunt, too. So much so that no one can really find these things very surprising because it's not like she's ever hidden her opinions before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy canuck Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 And to tell you the truth, the war on Polaris was a side show. Not sure what you mean by that. I doubt Polaris would think that and since it was a war involving some of the most powerful alliances in the game I am not sure why you think that either. Not being sarcastic, just want to know what you think the main event was if this war was a sideshow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomInterrupt Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 He isn't argueing whether the war is justified he is calling you out on holding OG and polar to completely different standards. In one case, you say certain behaviour demands an attack, in another you say it is perfectly acceptable. On a less serious note, why are you still crying about that war?? don't you and the community always ask for drama and war?? we did our share last summer and provided some entertainment, now its the others turn as their duty to the community. Also MaineGOP is correct. When compared to the screenshots in the OP, they are not exact but they are similar in regards to the fact that is is government people, talking in private about frustrations. It can't be a CB and a reasonable and acceptable thing at the same time. Pick one and then either apologize to Polar, attack OG, or accept your hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the damned Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I am upset for the following reasons: 1) No mention of Sparta 2) The damn thing was posted a half hour after i left to go drinkin on my B-day. For shame schatt, for shame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 And as for those who try to paint Reyne as a 'One Man Band' - she isn't. She is the triumvir in charge of External Affairs, which means she is the public face of the Old Guard, and the 'point man' in the foreign policy arena. Trying to tell us something? The CB against Polar was due to the presence of a clear and imminent (apparent? I don't want to get into that again though, start a new thread or take it to PMs if you want to discuss it) threat, not just that you were saying mean things about us. Previously I stated that I couldn't believe the Grämlins could be so naïve as to not anticipate the behaviour of their allies during NoCB, but this certainly supports that naïveté. But I still don't believe it. (got accents covered too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMMELHSQ Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 You are both correct in a sense, though I think you are exaggerating Rommel. I know the screen shot you speak of, it actually said something to the effect that we will do all we can to be nice to TOP, but eventually because they hate us, we will have to fight them... I really don't like beating up a dead horse, but you must of have been playing CN server 2.0 then. Can't see anything about the word "nice" here. Now how is this compared with Reyne saying she hate certain allainces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uaciaut Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 No wars took place this summer, only executions. Brotherington i really missed you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenzilla Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I really don't like beating up a dead horse, but you must of have been playing CN server 2.0 then. Can't see anything about the word "nice" here. Now how is this compared with Reyne saying she hate certain allainces? If that was your CB for your war...wow. That's a GGA level CB right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Previously I stated that I couldn't believe the Grämlins could be so naïve as to not anticipate the behaviour of their allies during NoCB, but this certainly supports that naïveté. But I still don't believe it. So NpO/BLEU never discussed attacking Gremlins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Cousteau Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Not sure what you mean by that. I doubt Polaris would think that and since it was a war involving some of the most powerful alliances in the game I am not sure why you think that either.Not being sarcastic, just want to know what you think the main event was if this war was a sideshow? GGA's unbelievable ineptness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacky Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) On a less serious note, why are you still crying about that war? Nobody is crying about anything. They're pointing out the hypocrisy in supporting the tactic being employed against Sponge, but not against Reyne. It's the same thing essentially, bar for minor differences. Infact I would argue that Sponge hated far less alliances than you and Reyne have admitted too. we did our share last summer and provided some entertainment, now its the others turn as their duty to the community. I believe Grämlins did what they believed was right. Rather than doing something for the entertainment of others. Edited March 25, 2009 by Blacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMMELHSQ Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 If that was your CB for your war...wow. That's a GGA level CB right there. go read bob janova post about what was the reason for war. As I believe it was that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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