Trouble at the MCXA?

[sir jesus]

Indeed, it will be quite the situation for Gopher and Dr. Fresh to settle.

They are a democracy, correct? Maybe the membership should decide whether retribution is worth it.

After what I've read throughout the entire thread, TSO deserves it.

[Ejayrazz]

The amount of people posturing as to the unjustness of this and what precedent this will set is hilarious, by the way. The precedent already exists. It's called Might Makes Right. Half of you assisted in formulating said precedent, at some point in your history. TSO has TOP protecting them, and thus the might of Q behind them. Good luck trying to beat that.

The only alliance that has any place to do anything is MCXA, and right now they have far more pertinent things to address. I believe Sponge hit the nail on the head there - a civil war amongst recently separated brothers is not the answer. Now whether MCXA will eventually attempt to extract what many of you see as righteous retribution...well, that remains to be seen. But for right now, no matter how much egg you try to smear on TSO and TOP's faces, I sincerely doubt TOP will drop TSO, and even if they did none of you have any right to declare a crusade.

Indeed, it will be quite the situation for Gopher and Dr. Fresh to settle.

I would rather see Fresh and Gopher handle this situation than dozens of other individuals.

[zzzptm]

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Continuum

That's the Mobius Accords, with all the relevant language for purveyors of the tinfoil. If the recruiting is an act of war, then the question would be if TOP aided and abetted that act of war: if so, would it not be itself in breach of the Mobius Accords? If so, then TOP can only be expelled by vote or leave by voluntary withdrawal - there is no provision in the Mobius Accords for immediate expulsion.

Given that MCXA is still a member of The Continuum, along with TOP, it would be bound to settle any dispute over this issue in private channels and not in public, where certain actors seem to already have been tried and convicted.

Yes, precedents seem to be broken here, but perhaps there is more going on that persons not privy to internal MCXA discussions simply would not know and that, if known, would have a different assessment of events in that new light.

If TOP or MCXA exits The Continuum, we'll know the results of talks were not satisfactory to one party or the other. If both remain in The Continuum, then there's nothing more to see here, move along.

[theArrowheadian]

They are a democracy, correct? Maybe the membership should decide whether retribution is worth it.

After what I've read throughout the entire thread, TSO deserves it.

MCXA is not a democracy, that is one of the biggest misconceptions that is thrown around. It is an Oligarchy. Two heads of state, a High Council, and general assembly. The GA elects HC and the HC elect CCs when a CC steps down.

[Buds The Man]

Also a lot of people would be simultaneously laughing their $@! off raiding some of them.

Trufax.

Hizzy

Signing an MDP with a newly established alliance is a dull move. It can be disastrous. For TOP, this was a necessary move. They have yet to see their government function as a newly established alliance, TOP doesn't sign MDPs with just anyone, they chose accordingly and strategically. Though TOP knows TSO's leaders, functioning as one with a new charter and new set of rules is completely different, they are a newly established alliance. TOP will wish to see their progress, rationality, how they function as allies as well as progression with communication, etc. It is an honor to sign an MDP with TOP, it is one of the highest bonding holds in CN. Time to view this progression is needed, as well as their imminent protection. It isn't completely illogical.

A treaty is necessary, I am sure some alliances would've love to start trouble, it isn't unprecedented.

Good to see logic back in the game welcome back EJ

If TOS hadnt secured a treaty there would be many who would have taken the oppurtunity to exact revenge on Sam and co for past events. It makes sense and with a rather quick experiation gives them the oppurtunity to get house set up and FA in order and secure there place on bob. Yes i know this has probably already been said

[Dr. Dan]

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Continuum

That's the Mobius Accords, with all the relevant language for purveyors of the tinfoil. If the recruiting is an act of war, then the question would be if TOP aided and abetted that act of war: if so, would it not be itself in breach of the Mobius Accords? If so, then TOP can only be expelled by vote or leave by voluntary withdrawal - there is no provision in the Mobius Accords for immediate expulsion.

Given that MCXA is still a member of The Continuum, along with TOP, it would be bound to settle any dispute over this issue in private channels and not in public, where certain actors seem to already have been tried and convicted.

Yes, precedents seem to be broken here, but perhaps there is more going on that persons not privy to internal MCXA discussions simply would not know and that, if known, would have a different assessment of events in that new light.

If TOP or MCXA exits The Continuum, we'll know the results of talks were not satisfactory to one party or the other. If both remain in The Continuum, then there's nothing more to see here, move along.

Again, it was handled already. MCXA and TOP are on good terms. We spoke with each other out of mutual respect to see their thoughts on the matter. They were OK with it, so we are OK with it.

No one is leaving Q over this, as this was discussed ahead of time.

Edit: Also, I appreciate your kind words, Ejay. It is also an honor to be allied to Grämlins.

Edit Edit: Also a clarification to Bud, there are many many alliances that wanted to take up the mantle of protector of TSO. Do not think for one second that TOP is alone in their support of TSO.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[logan1]

You wouldn't get the chance to alliance hop because we weren't going to accept you because of your history of that.

regaurdless, as i stated if accepted i would have left right away.

you bled me for all the info on tso and i was 1 of the whistle blowers yet the info given to you had no baring on your decision to protect TSO.

in the end it seem the 2 of you belong together and i admit that i made a mistake in thinking yours was an alliance i could believe in.

wow, between my path from MCXA (during the TSO scandel) to applying at TOP how would have thought... i mean what are the odds for me to leave 1 and apply at another that promotes these actions?

i think we are both just happy to say we are not worthy of each other.

it just took your helping TSO to not have my feeling hurt over it.

[Bob]

Signing an MDP with a newly established alliance is a dull move. It can be disastrous. For TOP, this was a necessary move. They have yet to see their government function as a newly established alliance, TOP doesn't sign MDPs with just anyone, they chose accordingly and strategically. Though TOP knows TSO's leaders, functioning as one with a new charter and new set of rules is completely different, they are a newly established alliance. TOP will wish to see their progress, rationality, how they function as allies as well as progression with communication, etc. It is an honor to sign an MDP with TOP, it is one of the highest bonding holds in CN. Time to view this progression is needed, as well as their imminent protection. It isn't completely illogical.

A treaty is necessary, I am sure some alliances would've love to start trouble, it isn't unprecedented.

I've replied privately since my post was irrelevant to this thread, having been addressed in one of the many opening posts, and I'd prefer not to derail this thread because of my failure to read.

[Dr. Dan]

regaurdless, as i stated if accepted i would have left right away.

you bled me for all the info on tso and i was 1 of the whistle blowers yet the info given to you had no baring on your decision to protect TSO.

in the end it seem the 2 of you belong together and i admit that i made a mistake in thinking yours was an alliance i could believe in.

wow, between my path from MCXA (during the TSO scandel) to applying at TOP how would have thought... i mean what are the odds for me to leave 1 and apply at another that promotes these actions?

i think we are both just happy to say we are not worthy of each other.

it just took your helping TSO to not have my feeling hurt over it.

Can we leave this derailing argument out of it?

Out of respect to you, I do not think it is appropriate to discuss your merits of admission in the middle of another thread. If you'd like to talk about it more, please PM me Logan and we can discuss it in detail.

Thanks

[Feanor Noldorin]

regaurdless, as i stated if accepted i would have left right away.

you bled me for all the info on tso and i was 1 of the whistle blowers yet the info given to you had no baring on your decision to protect TSO.

in the end it seem the 2 of you belong together and i admit that i made a mistake in thinking yours was an alliance i could believe in.

wow, between my path from MCXA (during the TSO scandel) to applying at TOP how would have thought... i mean what are the odds for me to leave 1 and apply at another that promotes these actions?

i think we are both just happy to say we are not worthy of each other.

it just took your helping TSO to not have my feeling hurt over it.

If you wish to believe that then go for it.

Good luck throughout the rest of your journey's on Planet Bob.

[pezstar]

Just a few weeks ago, in a post on the now archived Open World Forum, Dr. Dan called this very situation "unethical". I wonder what happened to change the minds of the government of TOP so quickly.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1219265

Edited February 24, 2009 by pezstar

[Madmonkey24]

Just a few weeks ago, in a post on the now archived Open World Forum, Dr. Dan called this very situation "unethical". I wonder what happened to change the minds of the government of TOP so quickly.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1219265

Is saying that I love you too much?

[sir jesus]

MCXA is not a democracy, that is one of the biggest misconceptions that is thrown around. It is an Oligarchy. Two heads of state, a High Council, and general assembly. The GA elects HC and the HC elect CCs when a CC steps down.

Thank you for the clarification.

And I still believe the membership should still vote on it, that would be far more entertaining.

EDIT: Pezstar that is an amazing find!

Edited February 24, 2009 by sir jesus

[Dr. Dan]

Just a few weeks ago, in a post on the now archived Open World Forum, Dr. Dan called this very situation "unethical". I wonder what happened to change the minds of the government of TOP so quickly.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1219265

For the original question, I'd say a lot of it is circumstantial. If you are doing it from a position of power, where you could make/push the changes you desire, then I believe that is unethical. If the alliance isn't adjusting to the membership's desires or the membership's desires no longer reflect your own, I don't think it's unethical for you to take your buddies with you & leave.

I will quote this for convenience.

I believe that in this particular situation, the MCXA leadership was past a point of no return for how they wished to govern. If you can see, they were quite unhappy about the structure of the alliance and have now decided to create a completely different alliance in terms of style (Citadelesque, if you will).

There are other issues concerning the breakup that make the split necessary, however, I will leave that to TSO/MCXA to discuss in public if they so wish.

My values haven't changed, but I appreciate you being concerned with them .

[King Srqt]

Just a few weeks ago, in a post on the now archived Open World Forum, Dr. Dan called this very situation "unethical". I wonder what happened to change the minds of the government of TOP so quickly.

I would actually say that this is unethical, more so for the disingenuous behavior.

For the original question, I'd say a lot of it is circumstantial. If you are doing it from a position of power, where you could make/push the changes you desire, then I believe that is unethical.

ouch.

that was a good catch pezstar.

@ dr. dan. I believe the first part of the post that pezstar linked is a more closely related to this situation (which just happens to be the part you left off when you quoted it)

Edited February 24, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Buds The Man]

Edit Edit: Also a clarification to Bud, there are many many alliances that wanted to take up the mantle of protector of TSO. Do not think for one second that TOP is alone in their support of TSO.

Probably so but the point is Sam and Co in there time in running MXCA made just as many enemies as friends so it doesnt change the fact they would need a protector or some tie in order to survive the announcement and have a chance at getting on their feet.

[Dr. Dan]

ouch.

that was a good catch pezstar.

There is no situation there that compares.

The disingenuous comment involved other alliances. the second part I have bolded in the above post. I am not trying to alter my values for technicalities, they are the same.

Having been in this situation myself, being a founder of Valhalla, I have experience that has given me a different look at splinter alliances. Sometimes there is just a point where you can not change the alliance to fit you anymore, even if you are in government.

Edit: Just saw your edit KS, I hope this answers it. If not, I will elaborate more.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[Duncan King]

Read the whole thing, only took an hour.

Good luck to all parties involved. May you go on in peace.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Duncan King

[Baron deSandersted]

Dear Great and Powerful Friends of The Sweet Oblivion,

It is extremely sad to see each of you leave the MCXA.

The nation of Alisaunder will declare an official period of

mourning, in answer to your departure.

Our dear friends at TOP should care for you well and I

wish only the best for each of you.

Hail TSO!!

Your Humble Servant,

[pezstar]

ouch.

that was a good catch pezstar.

@ dr. dan. I believe the first part of the post that pezstar linked is a more closely related to this situation (which just happens to be the part you left off when you quoted it)

To be fair, I left it off. I was editing and my mom called in the middle of it and I messed it all up.

[Archon]

Dear Great and Powerful Friends of The Sweet Oblivion,

It is extremely sad to see each of you leave the MCXA.

The nation of Alisaunder will declare an official period of

mourning, in answer to your departure.

Our dear friends at TOP should care for you well and I

wish only the best for each of you.

Hail TSO!!

Your Humble Servant,

Oh my god, you're still alive? (OOC: play)

My day just got a million times better.

[ChairmanHal]

The amount of people posturing as to the unjustness of this and what precedent this will set is hilarious, by the way.

I make it out to be akin to a crowd gathering, hoping to see someone jump off the top of a large building. They don't want gray matter and blood splattered on them when the guy lands head first, but that doesn't stop them from chanting, "jump!" anyway.

The only alliance that has any place to do anything is MCXA, and right now they have far more pertinent things to address. I believe Sponge hit the nail on the head there - a civil war amongst recently separated brothers is not the answer.

And deprive the crowd of a good swan dive?

Oh that's right, you are being logical here.

Now whether MCXA will eventually attempt to extract what many of you see as righteous retribution...well, that remains to be seen. But for right now, no matter how much egg you try to smear on TSO and TOP's faces, I sincerely doubt TOP will drop TSO, and even if they did none of you have any right to declare a crusade.

They just want blood, they aren't particular who's blood as long as it isn't their own.

[Enimecnegnev]

I for one am one of those that left because of the atmosphere that had taken over MCXA. Whether you all think it is right or wrong, I don't care. I did what I could to smooth things over with the remaining membeship and do not regret my decission to leave. I have said this before and I say it again, I have had their backs in the past and will have their backs now and forever more.

o/ TSO

o/ TOP

o/ MCXA

[Reason]

Oh my god, you're still alive? (OOC: play)

My day just got a million times better.

Yes, definitely much better than the earlier re-entrance of Terry Howard.

God knows the last thing we need in this llamaed of a drama thread are more firestarters (no one is allowed to state my hypocrisy here =]).

Archon: I understand it is moot to debate the justness of the action and my original post covered that it was their right to choose. Moreover, this is a subjective matter for myself, and I do not believe that it is right to leave an alliance en masse in such a fashion. Will my opinion matter much to the outcome? No. Will much be done about this situation? I doubt it. Still, I feel it is more important to express my opinion than to sit out this one. Thank you for the true post, though - it is a situation of 'might makes right' when the marbles are all aligned in TSO's favour.

However, one must be careful; sometimes karma trucks come back to run over your dharma dogs.

[RulertheWhite]

As a member of an alliance that has seen this sort of thing at least twice, I must extend my personal encouagement to the MCXA. Things like this hurt. But, you can rebuild, as long as you feel there is something worth rebuilding.

o/MCXA