Margrave Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Whatever actions you took under another flag do not cleanse the blood stains off the standard you now bear, waved by generations of tyrants, and dipped in the blood of those who fell in defense of their own sovereign nations and their own sacred honor. Time has passed, and now you seek to erase History itself by claiming another mantle. But look no further than your own house you now proudly claim, and you will see the footprints of murderers and assassins. Graves do not grow empty for the passage of time, nor do the murdered return to the arms of their families by the passing of seasons. Edited January 28, 2015 by Margrave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 ITT Kingzog called someone an idiot prone to making rhetorical errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcraftmazter Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 DBDC'S lack of desire to communicate With you. Communicate with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgaine Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Whatever actions you took under another flag do not cleanse the blood stains off the standard you now bear, waved by generations of tyrants, and dipped in the blood of those who fell in defense of their own sovereign nations and their own sacred honor. Time has passed, and now you seek to erase History itself by claiming another mantle. But look no further than your own house you now proudly claim, and you will see the footprints of murderers and assassins.  No alliance these days has clean hands that I know of. Perhaps the Green Protection Agency. [Hello, Jerdge] I never pretended otherwise.  Of course this is an intellectually dishonest attempt at distraction from the main point. He is essentially saying that your group did bad too at one point so you have no right to criticize what is being done now.  The main point is so long as the groups such as that of the enemy continues to start wars for frivolous reasons and plunder, the entire planet (including the alliances currently fighting alongside them) is at risk and will continue to shrink in numbers and in dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 The graves have grown over with grass, and the headstones have faded, so the criminal nature of Polaris' s atrocities are to be forgotten. What a generation of children, assisted by elders who know better, have done. Can anyone with history in this world countenance to this? The hand of time moves, so you are now made new, fresh as an innocent babe? No. I will not acquiesce or remit to you a position of morality or honor. You children should flee that spectre of ancient violation you now bear, and you elders should weep that the day has come in which once proud men and women now stoop and mutter before a banner of Polaris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerdge Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 No alliance these days has clean hands that I know of. Perhaps the Green Protection Agency. [Hello, Jerdge] [...]Hello Morgaine. It's a pleasure to see you post again. I remember you from those very ancient times. :) Of course, while the GPA's hands are definitely clean, the Agency isn't the only alliance to never have undertaken aggression and plunder. I'll take this opportunity to also thank Margrave for his comments. Regardless of the stance one may have about their content or his side, the rhetoric is beautiful. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hello Morgaine. It's a pleasure to see you post again. I remember you from those very ancient times. :) Of course, while the GPA's hands are definitely clean, the Agency isn't the only alliance to never have undertaken aggression and plunder. I'll take this opportunity to also thank Margrave for his comments. Regardless of the stance one may have about their content or his side, the rhetoric is beautiful. :) Tywin Lannister, in fitful dreams caught in snatches of sleep, wishes to speak with such flourish as I do. In all seriousness, however, I appreciate your commentary; it is always flattering as a rhetorician to be noted for ones wordsmithing. You yourself have proved to be no slouch in that arena either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgaine Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015  ...I will not acquiesce or remit to you a position of morality or honor.  No one is asking you to and you are in no position to grant or withdraw honour in any case.  You children should flee that spectre of ancient violation you now bear, and you elders should weep that the day has come in which once proud men and women now stoop and mutter before a banner of Polaris.   Bizarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Â No one is asking you to and you are in no position to grant or withdraw honour in any case. Â Â Bizarro So what you failed to do with verbosity you now attempt with brevity? Laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgaine Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) So what you failed to do with verbosity you now attempt with brevity? Laughable. Â There are only so many hours in the day, but to be declared a failure by the standards of the enemy and their toadies is a high compliment. Let us remember how they define "success." Â Hello Morgaine. It's a pleasure to see you post again. I remember you from those very ancient times. :) Â I am not sure everyone shares this gladness at the sight of my presence here. I look forward to this war's end so I can return to my duties as Priestess to the people of my nation. Edited January 28, 2015 by Morgaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Â There are only so many hours in the day, but to be declared a failure by the standards of the enemy and their toadies is a high compliment. Let us remember how they define "success." Â Â I am not sure everyone shares this gladness at the sight of my presence here. I look forward to this war's end so I can return to my duties as Priestess to the people of my nation. Â That you scoff and escape any attempt at a repartee by labeling me a toadie is a sweeter admission of defeat than if you tore your own banners before me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walshington Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited)  First of all, let me re-iterate that New polar Order is essentially non-political. We are practical and military. If I may presume to offer based upon my observations of how we conduct ourselves, we do not have much interest in intrigue, ideology and the like.    Watching Polar get jumped by 12 alliances after simply entering in support of allies reminds me of something. Not something from the mists of time, but from one year ago. I think it is this:    Of course, Polar was defending it's sovereignty against a supposed plot by NSO.  However, the above is what the war looked like for 6 days AFTER the surrender of NSO.  If I recall correctly, the terms imposed upon NPO were that their nations that had remained in peace mode from the beginning of the war through February 1st were be barred from sending and receiving aid for a period of 100 days.  Some may view this dogpiling of nine alliances on NPO as an imposition of Polar's will, on nations who never attacked them (only the peace-moders were singled out), from an alliance that simply entered to defend allies.  If I may presume to offer based upon my observations of how you conduct ourselves, you do have at least some interest in intrigue, ideology and the like -- unable to reduce the NS of the bankers, you stopped them from rebuilding those who had been reduced.  While you may be essentially non-political, the above conditions indicate there is some political acumen afoot; the coalition, after all, was named after you.   I would be a little surprised if this wasn't a chance to let you reap what you have sown, but I don't know DBDC's motives.  However, if similar terms are imposed upon you when you capitulate, the quotes by your members and allies in NPO's surrender thread about how easy, fair and just the terms were will likely haunt your attempts to elicit sympathy about that as well.  Meanwhile, those who previously complained will gloat.  It is easy for losers to adopt morality as a rallying cry -- much more difficult for winners. Edited January 29, 2015 by Walshington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciroton Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015  Actually, I am not debating with them; to do so is pointless. I am offering my observations and they are trying to undermine them in response. Sometimes when they post a response that is untrue or distorted, it is necessary to refute that. I am under no illusions of trying to change their minds; they are incorrigible.  I am hoping that others who are capable of being honest and objective will be stimulated to use their own minds and make their own conclusions. I am confident that if they are, they will see that what we are discussing has implications that go far beyond that of a "fun fight" and "winning."    It sounds like a debate from where I am sitting, since you are going over your points again and again with what seems to be the same person. Alas, I am not a very good debater, so I cannot say I recognize it when I see it for sure. Either way, if this is fun for you, keep it up.   Whatever actions you took under another flag do not cleanse the blood stains off the standard you now bear, waved by generations of tyrants, and dipped in the blood of those who fell in defense of their own sovereign nations and their own sacred honor. Time has passed, and now you seek to erase History itself by claiming another mantle. But look no further than your own house you now proudly claim, and you will see the footprints of murderers and assassins. Graves do not grow empty for the passage of time, nor do the murdered return to the arms of their families by the passing of seasons.   I'd like clarification on this point. Are you calling Morgaine a scoundral for their past? Or are you implying that, because they are a member of Polaris, they now bear the same sins as those who commited these supposed (since I am not very OWF active) atrosities? To me, it sounds like the latter.   I would be a little surprised if this wasn't a chance to let you reap what you have sown, but I don't know DBDC's motives.  However, if similar terms are imposed upon you when you capitulate, the quotes by your members and allies in NPO's surrender thread about how easy, fair and just the terms were will likely haunt your attempts to elicit sympathy about that as well.  Meanwhile, those who previously complained will gloat.  It is easy for losers to adopt morality as a rallying cry -- much more difficult for winners.  Comparing these two wars is very much a case of compairing Apples and Oranges. If not for the circumstances and the actors in different roles, than for your perceived ending. I very much doubt the government of Polaris would capitulate to such ironic terms, as much as you might wish it be otherwise.  Even if it would be, admittedly, funny. :v: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walford Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Walford, I realized something, in reading these missives; You, sir, a philosophical bigot. You are intolerable because you have never, in the time you have been a leader of your nation or a leader among the family of nations, been able to articulate or acknowledge the validity of a point, or a perspective, that did not fit hand and glove with your own. Â Without any substantiation of this series of gratuitous assertions peppered with ad Hominem attacks, all of this can be just as gratuitously dismissed. But the anger is coming across. Â Rather than ever make an acknowledgement to any of your opponents that while you disagree with them in the highest, you acknowledge that they have reasons to think that way, you paint all of them in the blackest and vile clothing, without a single light in relief. No one, especially so many people, are universally monsters. Were any to take you seriously outside of your circle, the universe would seem to them to be one filled with hate; an intolerable, Kafkaesque nightmare of pure hearted weaklings on one side and prevaricating monsters on the other, without relief, without a single shade of grey in your world of utter blacks and whites. Â It's actually quite simple. Those who starting these kinds of wars are not just having fun and winning w/o consequence as they imply. They are doing damage to everybody on Bob. That is why most have left. Â Â I, opposed to you philosophically as I am, can take a step back from my own punditry and view points and recognize both your innate humanness and the reasons and motivations, some of them arguably noble, that make you the speaker and thinker you are. Â I appreciate that. Â Â You cannot do the same for me, nor anyone who doesn't share your philosophy. That is hateful to me, and a raiment of shame that you wear as though you'd been purpl'd as a King. Â Â It is not really a philosophy and it actually does matter which side wins, which is implicit in yours and others' assertions. This isn't "just a game" in which it doesn't matter who wins. It is a situation in which if one side wins, everybody loses. Everybody. Â I know that the perpetrators cannot have their eyes opened to what is the logical conclusion of where things will go if this continues. But I am hoping that some will and maybe a change can be made before Bob dies. Â So many of my friends have been driven off Bob because other people who could have done quite nicely with us here decided instead to face us with the choice of being forced to do things their way or be wiped out. Â Who are the ones who are intolerant here? Why can't these people do their own thing with those who want to do things their way and leave those who are oriented toward other than warz-n-lulz-n-stuff can do that. Â That's how Orwellian, twisted and upside-down things have gotten. If you want to have people allowed the options of being at war all of the time or to be able focus on politics and economics, you are intolerant. If you use force to make it so everybody is playing a one-dimensional war-game and the rest can leave, you are an advocate for freedom. Â As I said, if things keep going as they are, we all lose. I don't want that. ------------------------------------ For starters, I will go back to a recommendation that I made years ago: The non-aligned need to be left alone unless they start something. These are mostly new rulers and their welcome should not consist of being swamped with incessant recruitment messages, battle reports and threats. They should not be threatened with ZI if they dare to fight back. If you are not a sociopath, try to think what it is like to be new and be confronted with this? Why can't people have the option to just be an independent nation and not be punished for it? Those are the seedlings of the next generation and we have to give them a chance to grow. Â How this can be accomplished can be discussed elsewhere once this war is over. But this is critical, because the non-aligned represent the future. That is why I undertook the "failed" experiment of organizing them for mutual protection. Perhaps some mutual agreement can be forged at some point to let our little babies have a chance to grow unmolested. Let them have a chance to browse the forums, get to know people and express themselves w/o fear. At one time, before NONE, we had a cadre of eccentrics who did not belong to any alliance. They were interesting and well-liked. There were even rogue alliances that hid in the ranks of the non-aligned who would suddenly post an AA on their nations, attack somebody and then disappear again. I remember dealing with them when I was a Platoon Commander at GATO. We had 300 wars declared on our little guys in the space of a month, all by non-aligned. It was exciting. Â Things could be so much more interesting here if we show some respect to each other and let people do their own thing. Â That is my ultimate goal. I want Bob to grow again and maybe even thrive. Some of us are doing things that are impinging upon that, so I am here to call them on it and offer some alternatives. Edited January 29, 2015 by Walford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I doubt terms on Polar nations that hid the whole war in peace mode would affect Polar much at all :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Whatever actions you took under another flag do not cleanse the blood stains off the standard you now bear, waved by generations of tyrants, and dipped in the blood of those who fell in defense of their own sovereign nations and their own sacred honor. Time has passed, and now you seek to erase History itself by claiming another mantle. But look no further than your own house you now proudly claim, and you will see the footprints of murderers and assassins. Graves do not grow empty for the passage of time, nor do the murdered return to the arms of their families by the passing of seasons. Dude you gotta get over it man that was seriously like 7 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Dude you gotta get over it man that was seriously like 7 years ago. Â Â (OOC: if you can't get down with me playing on the IC side of the IC/OOC divide, I don't know what to tell you. ICly, as a veteran ruler of nations, how does the passing of time make what happened okay? ICly, I'm also not just talking about \m/, but various other alliances that have suffered at the hands of Polar. Or did you think I had finally flipped and bought into my own Bull hockey? I don't know Morgaine, I respect Walford as a player of a side I've always been against, Tywin is kinda annoying and you're my boy, blue. But rhetoric is rhetoric and this has been a stellar opportunity for me to hone my craft. Gods above, I don't actually hate you people.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Tywin Lannister, in fitful dreams caught in snatches of sleep, wishes to speak with such flourish as I do.  Really?    It's naught more than an alliance of convenience, probably do to the fact that he views you as a misguided youth; say what you will about the man but he knows how to be tactical. If you removed this war and were both left to your own devices I doubt he'd be so peaceable to you in discussion.  Seems kind of hypocritical after saying this:  Rather than ever make an acknowledgement to any of your opponents that while you disagree with them in the highest, you acknowledge that they have reasons to think that way, you paint all of them in the blackest and vile clothing, without a single light in relief.    18:18   Margrave   Because then it leaves me bereft of the pleasure of ambushing you in public 18:18   Tywin_Lannister   lol 18:18   Margrave   with my carefully prepared counter arguments 18:18   Tywin_Lannister   theres a first time for everything 18:18   Margrave   beating you in IRC isn't as satisfying 18:18   Margrave   You don't have to acknowledge my victory in order for it to be a win  Edited January 29, 2015 by Tywin Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Â Really? Â Â You wanna clarify what you're reallying about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Â Â (OOC: if you can't get down with me playing on the IC side of the IC/OOC divide, I don't know what to tell you. ICly, as a veteran ruler of nations, how does the passing of time make what happened okay? ICly, I'm also not just talking about \m/, but various other alliances that have suffered at the hands of Polar. Or did you think I had finally flipped and bought into my own Bull hockey? I don't know Morgaine, I respect Walford as a player of a side I've always been against, Tywin is kinda annoying and you're my boy, blue. But rhetoric is rhetoric and this has been a stellar opportunity for me to hone my craft. Gods above, I don't actually hate you people.) Â OOC: I meant your IC grudge is still ridiculous lol. Not a single dude still in government from back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015  OOC: I meant your IC grudge is still ridiculous lol. Not a single dude still in government from back then.   OOC: Okay, think of it in COIN terms. If the US bombs my village, kills most of my friends and family, and then seven years later, I'm still hearing them talk (with new leaders, be it said) about how terrible my family and friends were, do you really think I'm going to be the kind of guy who won't be putting bombs in the road? That's why we, the Hobbesian Leviathan of the situation, don't indiscriminately bomb people (one of the reasons, more in this vein is not germane.) Polaris spent a long time beating up others and giggling about it while preaching about how wonderful they were. Never had to worry about camera's and Law Of Warfare violations, et al, like us.   IC: Seven years my friends have been dead. Across those seven years, Polaris ravaged others, and abused its seat of power. And now I am supposed to be sympathetic to the cause, because you've decided to join it? No, friend; I wish you well but you're a fool to think you can change the name Polaris to mean anything other than Tyrant, and I will do all in my power to see the day Polaris is formally, totally, and completely eradicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 We've been ravaged our fair share of times, as well. Hell, we've dropped 13 million NS now which would put us I believe in the top 5 all time. This goes along with the other losing wars. The way I see it, crimes are paid when you acknowledge them, and take an ass kicking. I don't fault NPO anymore for destroying 3-4 of my alliances. Life goes on, and it's tiresome to be the same person, doing the same thing, over and over. Â Expand your horizons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) I have an idea, given that you like warz n stuff, why don't you go non-aligned? You can do as we did and set your alliance affiliation as NONE (capitalized) and choose the same flag. That way some could figure out that there was a relationship and avoid you, but others might decide to take you on and see what happens. We didn't do diplomacy, we just fought -- and believe me, your defensive wars will keep you busy enough. Oh no, you wouldn't do that. You don't have the guts. Instead, you cravenly exploit the alliance system just as you exploit your [temporary] affiliated alliances. You hide behind the same AA to protect your precious pixels, then look for houses to break into and people to beat up. Â Prove me wrong and go out into the world as independents and see what courage and integrity is really made of. Â How could I have possibly missed this gem? Â Walford, in 2009 I helped to resurrect and then led one of the most hated alliances in the history of our world, doing so without benefit of a protector and after a previous incarnation had been hunted damn near to extinction and then outright prohibited from reorganizing under pain of eternal war. Organizing as 'NONE' would have been much more safe. Instead, we chose to poke our finger right in the eyes of those who wanted us destroyed. Â (In fact, I had previously been warned that I would be personally hunted down. At no point did I ever bow before those who made those threats. I did not apologize. I defied them, and damn the consequences.) Â I then systematically worked to undo years of mistrust, and on more than one occasion I managed to succeed, as did my successors. In this, we accomplished something through actions which your bluster about 'NONE' and whingeing about the peace residing in the hearts of men had utterly failed to do. We endured. Â You have nothing to teach anyone. Edited January 29, 2015 by kingzog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walshington Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015   Comparing these two wars is very much a case of compairing Apples and Oranges.  Yes, except for the poor CB, the dogpiling, the imposition of political will on an alliance who simply entered for her allies and the cry of "Immorality!" of the losers, these are completely different.    I very much doubt the government of Polaris would capitulate to such ironic terms  NPO probably said the same thing a few months before they capitulated.   I very much doubt the government of Polaris would capitulate to such ironic terms, as much as you might wish it be otherwise.   Well, you misread me -- I really don't have a dog in the fight.  Didn't with NPO either.  I just find it hard to listen to all the hand-wringing about the barbarians and the stormtroopers when it was Polar that was wearing the jackboots the last time I heard it.  Which was not all that long ago.  If you're going to play hardball, play hardball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyGrub Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I welcome the attempt to impose terms on our nations that have remained in Peace Mode for the entire conflict.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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