The GM's Hall

[Beauty]

If the computer hardware fries it'd only take a 1 hour  (tops) swap of the motherboard, cpu, and possibly graphics chip. If it fried the generator equipment, that could be longer as replacement parts might have to be fabricated.

I'm only in my first year of IS so how strong would you say that the Japanese virus was?

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

I'm only in my first year of IS so how strong would you say that the Japanese virus was?

Not very. What kind of networks do your military systems have? How is a Japanese intruder into your networks going to actually find the source material for your radar systems themselves? It is unlikely that there is a big red sign pointing straight towards it, especially considering that it's sensitive data. I'd place bets on that kind of thing being encrypted too, which means that they won't be able to use the data that they steal.

Hacking is not as easy as Mogar's post implies it to be. Similarly, it is also difficult to actually ascertain that you are being hacked. There aren't any specific warnings that come up - it'd just be another user using the network, who happens to be in the former Russian Empire.

That does raise the point, however. Japan will not be able to receive any data from your networks, because your systems would be sending it all to some random place in the former Russian Empire, as directed to do so by the IP.

[Mogar]

you technically can't even react to it, as there was no spyrolls done and as such the attack has not taken place.

[Beauty]

Not very. What kind of networks do your military systems have? How is a Japanese intruder into your networks going to actually find the source material for your radar systems themselves? It is unlikely that there is a big red sign pointing straight towards it, especially considering that it's sensitive data. I'd place bets on that kind of thing being encrypted too, which means that they won't be able to use the data that they steal.Hacking is not as easy as Mogar's post implies it to be. Similarly, it is also difficult to actually ascertain that you are being hacked. There aren't any specific warnings that come up - it'd just be another user using the network, who happens to be in the former Russian Empire.That does raise the point, however. Japan will not be able to receive any data from your networks, because your systems would be sending it all to some random place in the former Russian Empire, as directed to do so by the IP.

Thank you Horo I appreciate it! :)

[Hereno]

Something being simply "encrypted" doesn't mean much of anything. What matters is the type of encryption. Inevitably, if asked, Triyun will be forced to specify that his encryption is AES-256 or something else equally impenetrable, essentially meaning that it is impossible to intercept and decode any transmissions between states that someone doesn't want to be read. Such is the world we live in. As far as I'm concerned, Markus, there's no way for you to make that spy roll. And yes, in case you all haven't caught on, this was my opinion before I pretended to be ignorant so you'd all rev up your lie-cannons and elawyer machines.

On that note, it is my opinion that Triyun's involvement in this dispute is entirely OOC motivated and should be wiped, given FHIC has not been around since before Britain came into existence. Alvonia has a treaty with France; as far as I know, there were not even relations between Britain and the Cisalpine Republic before this event occurred, let alone anything even remotely resembling a reason for Triyun to be engaging in military actions in tandem. However, there's nothing wrong with what Hungary or Romania did, because Alvonia did just fight a war with them.

You can consider all of that my GM-official™ position.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123582-the-french-connection/?p=3302591

In light of the earlier ruling, we're going to have to discuss this.

[Triyun]

Realism is a thing:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations)

 

The English logic on the position is three fold:

 

1) France by having the largest military force close to Britain and what is a percieved as a large amount of political legitimacy is the ne most likely to be able to threaten the British Isles.  Britain therefore has an interest in reducing its influence.

2)  The Prioritization of French Sovereignty over other Sovereignties when no one else signed the treaty is a necessary threat to the Westphalian System also something against British Interest

3)   A rivalry between the Italians and French is very much in British interests because Britain can force France to invest more resources away from Britain.  At the same time, British involvement overt rather than covert was the result of the IC actions of Scandinavia stating there would be a personal union.  It is no small mystery that the threat of a combined Scandinavian French State is in no doubt a threat to the balance of power in the North Sea, and weakening that union as well as preventing the French fleet in Norwegian Ports (see the German Navy's actions there in WW II) could be taken as a clear threat and an objective worth preventing.

 

The British Government would retain a policy of merely weakening the French through covert means and French scepticism if the Scandinavians did not threaten to unite with France.  

[Hereno]

I did post it here specifically so you could defend yourself, but the reason I think this needs to be brought up isn't because I think your CB is a bad one. Normally, I wouldn't care. You can be threatened by France all you want, that's legitimate in my eyes. And I also want to clarify that I don't care about your military actions in the north Atlantic, because I agree completely that you have a valid reason to be there. But I've already retconned actions of yours in the same conflict in regards to France for being OOC-based. In light of that, I'm wary to let you go ahead and go through with this because you've already been prevented from entering once, and because, ultimately, FHIC's nation is paused and you guys are RPing around it.

What everybody should have done was just agreed to pause it and wait two weeks, rather than trying to grab it or assign it back to her without consulting the GM team, but we're past that now and so all I'm worried about is if we'd be allowing you to troll someone who's nation is supposed to be frozen in time by allowing this to go ahead. And yes, I do think that your taking an aggressive posture against her while she's not here isn't very fair play, but then it's not in the rules that you have to be courteous, and there is a discussion process for a reason.

[Triyun]

If I'm not violating any rule how is it a GM matter.

 

Snowhaven is not France, so whether or not FHIC is paused isn't material.  It was once France but she made the choice to give it away.  People taking in the information she's away is OOC not IC and should thus under the rules not be accounted for.  People aren't obligated to put RP on pause cause one person is away for months IRL are they?  Surely this game is bigger than that.  And surely one person does not merit favor no matter who they are on that.

 

Further I am also a Mediterranean Power as well as a North Atlantic Power as Cyprus was under annexation and is now part of Britain.  It is in my interest in the Med to force French calculus to be focused on Italy as well.  The issue is that the weakening the French on any point ultimately redounds to my overall benefit as they are my largest threat by numbers, and even more importantly the actions are not so much a result of the French but by their allies trying to establish norms of French priority.

 

To make other states bound by French treaty obligations is clearly against British interests both in terms of geography but also in terms of norms and customary law.  You see this as a reason why Russia and China veto items in the UN IRL that don't directly affect them but they do not want to infringe on sovereignty as its a thing they themselves value.

 

For trolling France I troll France on IRC and mock it in titles, but I've clearly ICly RPed reasons for a hostility towards France generally, and as far as my strategy whether to weaken in one area to make it unable to concentrate in another is certainly a fair and valid strategy especially in light of how its allies behave.  

[Evangeline Anovilis]

What everybody should have done was just agreed to pause it and wait two weeks, rather than trying to grab it or assign it back to her without consulting the GM team, but we're past that now and so all I'm worried about is if we'd be allowing you to troll someone who's nation is supposed to be frozen in time by allowing this to go ahead. And yes, I do think that your taking an aggressive posture against her while she's not here isn't very fair play, but then it's not in the rules that you have to be courteous, and there is a discussion process for a reason.

I think, the annexation of white land is robbing people who would want to roll in this white land of the opportunity to actually respond to others taking their country. They do not have the opportunity to contest the status quo later anymore, and you know, is it their fault for not being around yt? Maybe they are busy, maybe they have not yet heard? Let's pause landgrabbing and wait for people to actually come and take the land as new nations. Well, sadly, that's not how it works. People who are away won't have equal opportunity ever. People who are around will be stronger, just by being around and active. We can't just pause the RP, merely because someone got locked and can't respond to something that might be of interest to them. Sure, this may seem unfair to the person locked, but ultimatively, it is the price you pay for being away and while it sounds harsh, when you decide that something else is worth your time more than a forum RP, well, you most likely got your reasons (and most likely it is better to spend your time otherwise). Let's assume, it'd not be two weeks, but two months. Should we then wait two months, because maybe FHIC has interests somewhere? That's not really reasonable either, is it? When I left this community and later rejoined, I also had to start from square one and was also not bitching how Rudolph annexed part of Romania which any Romanian player at some point might want. Face it, who is not here has certain disadvantages. And we got to live with them.

[xoindotnler]

I blame the CNRP people for bringing CNRP land grabbing into CNRP2.

[Mogar]

I can always make CNRP3.

[Hereno]

I think, the annexation of white land is robbing people who would want to roll in this white land of the opportunity to actually respond to others taking their country. They do not have the opportunity to contest the status quo later anymore, and you know, is it their fault for not being around yt? Maybe they are busy, maybe they have not yet heard? Let's pause landgrabbing and wait for people to actually come and take the land as new nations. Well, sadly, that's not how it works. People who are away won't have equal opportunity ever. People who are around will be stronger, just by being around and active. We can't just pause the RP, merely because someone got locked and can't respond to something that might be of interest to them. Sure, this may seem unfair to the person locked, but ultimatively, it is the price you pay for being away and while it sounds harsh, when you decide that something else is worth your time more than a forum RP, well, you most likely got your reasons (and most likely it is better to spend your time otherwise). Let's assume, it'd not be two weeks, but two months. Should we then wait two months, because maybe FHIC has interests somewhere? That's not really reasonable either, is it? When I left this community and later rejoined, I also had to start from square one and was also not !@#$%*ing how Rudolph annexed part of Romania which any Romanian player at some point might want. Face it, who is not here has certain disadvantages. And we got to live with them.

I never said I thought it was a good idea to let someone pause France for 3 months, but that's the GM decision that was made. Ironically enough, by the same GM team who's first act in office was to get rid of the previous GM team's decision about Tywin. But that's not really what's up for debate, given that the time period has almost elapsed. What's up for debate is if moving against a country that doesn't exist yet should be allowed, given we know that the person has OOC interests in the attack? Triyun hasn't really been secretive in his bragging about hitting France; talking openly in #cnrp2 about it. Imagine if you wanted to roll into white space near me, and I heard wind of it so I sent a bunch of troops into the area and started getting ready to attack you for no reason. And now imagine if I've been bragging in the public channel that I wanted to roll you, specifically, you, for weeks before you rolled in. That would be ridiculous, right? I feel as though that's more or less the same case here. He could at the very least wait until FHIC is back before he starts moving against her. Nutmeg is different, because the land borders him and there's no other motives behind it other than him wanting the land. But there is a larger picture here and I don't think the intention behind the ruling to pause France was to have her come back to a gun pointed right in her face and no time to maneuver. Edited August 29, 2014 by Hereno

[Mogar]

"But I'm not breaking any rules guiz" At least he did openly admit it is his IC policy to plot against a paused nation.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I blame the CNRP people for bringing CNRP land grabbing into CNRP2.

Yeah, look at all that crazy landgrabbing that's about equally as prevalent among people from CNRP than it is among those who are against CNRP. Definitely was us who brought it in.

 

I can always make CNRP3.

And in CNRP74, there will most likely still be landgrabbing and OOC arguments.

 

I never said I thought it was a good idea to let someone pause France for 3 months, but that's the GM decision that was made. Ironically enough, by the same GM team who's first act in office was to get rid of the previous GM team's decision about Tywin. But that's not really what's up for debate, given that the time period has almost elapsed. What's up for debate is if moving against a country that doesn't exist yet should be allowed, given we know that the person has OOC interests in the attack? Triyun hasn't really been secretive in his bragging about hitting France; talking openly in #cnrp2 about it. Imagine if you wanted to roll into white space near me, and I heard wind of it so I sent a bunch of troops into the area and started getting ready to attack you for no reason. And now imagine if I've been bragging in the public channel that I wanted to roll you, specifically, you, for weeks before you rolled in. That would be ridiculous, right? I feel as though that's more or less the same case here. He could at the very least wait until FHIC is back before he starts moving against her. Nutmeg is different, because the land borders him and there's no other motives behind it other than him wanting the land. But there is a larger picture here and I don't think the intention behind the ruling to pause France was to have her come back to a gun pointed right in her face and no time to maneuver.

Well, talk about FHIC having no time to maneuver, should Triyun hit her on completely trumped up reasons the moment she returns. Currently, Triyun is interacting with people who aren't locked and who brought themselves into the dispute.

[Mogar]

And in CNRP74, there will most likely still be landgrabbing and OOC arguments.

 

Well, talk about FHIC having no time to maneuver, should Triyun hit her on completely trumped up reasons the moment she returns. Currently, Triyun is interacting with people who aren't locked and who brought themselves into the dispute.

I doubt it, OOC arguments only started happening in intensity once the 50k ban was lifted, lyster and uber argued but it was solved fairly quickly.

 

So the blatant IC plotting against France is acceptable until it's too late to wipe? sounds logical.

[Uberstein]

My argument with Lyser only ended because he agreed to a white peace, so I didn't really care anymore. If the war had continued, I would have had a reason to keep arguing my point.

[Voodoo Nova]

IC plotting is still IC moves. If he's not invading FHIC's nation, then how is the lock being broken? If an action might possibly be against FHIC's wishes for something to happen and she isn't here, then she can't do anything about it until she returns.

 

This would be like if someone wanted to use the entrance to the Red Sea while I am at OCS. Based on my IC policy, I reserve the right to block whoever I want whenever I want in my waters. If someone is entering the Red Sea from my waters to attack my allies, that is obviously against my IC interests. If I'm not here, then oh well. I can't do anything about it. There is no waiting or pausing until I return. The same goes for FHIC and Snowhaven.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Voodoo Nova

[Hereno]

Well, talk about FHIC having no time to maneuver, should Triyun hit her on completely trumped up reasons the moment she returns. Currently, Triyun is interacting with people who aren't locked and who brought themselves into the dispute.

That's the thing. Once she's here, I don't care if his characters consider her a threat. But allowing him to consider her a threat before she is actually playing... when he's already told us straight up that he's maneuvering to do what you say he's going to do... by the time he's done maneuvering, he has the CB and it's valid IC then. But it would be RP'd history that exists with France as, at best, a complete non-factor in the situation. Meaning that there is no valid reason to move against it.

It isn't like I think he can just never be able to move against her, and you can't deny that it's not very sportsmanlike to unpause someone's controller and start beating them up when they aren't there to play. This is an identical online equivalent to what amounts to cheating. Triyun's insistence on not giving her a fair fight is only even more proof, as if more than his words were needed, that it is in the best interest of the RP for the rules to be enforced here.

IC plotting is still IC moves. If he's not invading FHIC's nation, then how is the lock being broken? If an action might possibly be against FHIC's wishes for something to happen and she isn't here, then she can't do anything about it until she returns.
 
This would be like if someone wanted to use the entrance to the Red Sea while I am at OCS. Based on my IC policy, I reserve the right to block whoever I want whenever I want in my waters. If someone is entering the Red Sea from my waters to attack my allies, that is obviously against my IC interests. If I'm not here, then oh well. I can't do anything about it. There is no waiting or pausing until I return. The same goes for FHIC and Snowhaven.

The difference being that France is not taking any actions, which is in fact the crux of my argument. Edited August 29, 2014 by Hereno

[Voodoo Nova]

That's the thing. Once she's here, I don't care if his characters consider her a threat. But allowing him to consider her a threat before she is actually playing... when he's already told us straight up that he's maneuvering to do what you say he's going to do... by the time he's done maneuvering, he has the CB and it's valid IC then. But it would be RP'd history that exists with France as, at best, a complete non-factor in the situation. Meaning that there is no valid reason to move against it.

It isn't like I think he can just never be able to move against her, and you can't deny that it's not very sportsmanlike to unpause someone's controller and start beating them up when they aren't there to play. This is an identical online equivalent to what amounts to cheating. Triyun's insistence on not giving her a fair fight is only even more proof, as if more than his words were needed, that it is in the best interest of the RP for the rules to be enforced here.


The difference being that France is not taking any actions, which is in fact the crux of my argument.

 

And when I'm locked, I won't be able to take action either.

[Hereno]

And when I'm locked, I won't be able to take action either.

Yeah. That's not really the issue being discussed here...

At this point I think I'm just not going to agree with you guys on this one. Unless Ty or Markus can come up with better arguments, I don't think I'm going to be budged.

[Voodoo Nova]

Yeah. That's not really the issue being discussed here...

At this point I think I'm just not going to agree with you guys on this one. Unless Ty or Markus can come up with better arguments, I don't think I'm going to be budged.

 

I think we're discussing two different topics here. So I'll also end my participation on this topic.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Voodoo Nova

[Mogar]

they've always had it.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

That's the thing. Once she's here, I don't care if his characters consider her a threat. But allowing him to consider her a threat before she is actually playing... when he's already told us straight up that he's maneuvering to do what you say he's going to do... by the time he's done maneuvering, he has the CB and it's valid IC then. But it would be RP'd history that exists with France as, at best, a complete non-factor in the situation. Meaning that there is no valid reason to move against it.

It isn't like I think he can just never be able to move against her, and you can't deny that it's not very sportsmanlike to unpause someone's controller and start beating them up when they aren't there to play. This is an identical online equivalent to what amounts to cheating. Triyun's insistence on not giving her a fair fight is only even more proof, as if more than his words were needed, that it is in the best interest of the RP for the rules to be enforced here.


The difference being that France is not taking any actions, which is in fact the crux of my argument.

The fact is, France is on the map, it is canon, FHIC and Lyser have set into motion RP that ICly can lead to a personal union. Triyun is not acting on some weird OOC knowledge, he is acting on what IC, FHIC RPed and it is RP she can also use once she returns. Triyun also is not making up anything new about france, he merely states that the combination of France and Sweden will be a potential threat and it is something Lysergide pointed out.

 

France at the current time may be locked, but that does not mean outside of France France does not exist canonically and that we need to pause RPs. Outside of france, FHIC is just superinactive with GM sanction. If the GMs would have thought such could cause problems, that's what you get for locking nations this long. And whether you supported the initial ruling or not is not the matter here. It happened.

[Hereno]

The fact is, France is on the map, it is canon, FHIC and Lyser have set into motion RP that ICly can lead to a personal union. Triyun is not acting on some weird OOC knowledge, he is acting on what IC, FHIC RPed and it is RP she can also use once she returns. Triyun also is not making up anything new about france, he merely states that the combination of France and Sweden will be a potential threat and it is something Lysergide pointed out.
 
France at the current time may be locked, but that does not mean outside of France France does not exist canonically and that we need to pause RPs. Outside of france, FHIC is just superinactive with GM sanction. If the GMs would have thought such could cause problems, that's what you get for locking nations this long. And whether you supported the initial ruling or not is not the matter here. It happened.

The key point here is that Triyun has already been precluded from going after France during this same incident by a prior ruling. You're cherry-picking and presenting the aspects of the situation out of context with each other. Do you not understand that nothing else and no other nations are being looked at here? We are specifically talking about Triyun and Great Britain. Not you, not Voodoo, and not either of your nations. Nor Alvonia, Nutmeg, Mogar, Saxony, or anybody else. Understand? I only posted it here because I think it's fair that Triyun gets a chance to present his case, although in retrospect we should have just made it a group PM between the relevant parties, because nothing is ever accomplished by arguing ITT.

[Markus Wilding]

I've been doing a little bit of reading on what exactly transpired when FHIC was granted her lock, and I've come to the conclusion which will bolded for your TL;DR pleasure.
 
As Lynneth ruled shortly after FHIC's original lock (and the ensuing debate that followed):
 

Everyone stop arguing about nothing. FHIC'll get her France back after she's done with Basic unless Rudy overrules me. And nobody can touch it via RP either, due to the nature of how a 'lock' works.

 
Which was confirmed shortly after by Rudolph:
 
 

iVouch and iBack Lynneth on this. This was why the measure of GM's approving extensions was put into place. As has been said prior to this on several other points before this was "contested", raise discussion on it and have the community as a whole to generally approve it (IE: Have a resounding majority who agree).

 
Emphasis mine. You may have an IC reason to dislike France, but the problem is you are trying to act against someone who cannot respond themselves. This goes against the nature of a cooperative community and I find no choice but to uphold a ruling made by previous GMs (Lynneth and Rudolph) concerning this situation.
 

Triyun is violating the lock set on France by acting against it. ANY actions taken against France should be retconned.

That being said, I would also recommend that Lynneth add the following to the map thread rules:
 
 

Activity Requirements
A total of 3 weeks is the maximum allowed time to go between IC posting before you will be removed from the map, with GM notification this can be extended to up to 2 months, longer extensions may be granted upon GM discussion of the case to allow for extenuating circumstances. (Basic Training for example.)
During longer extensions, called a "lock", nations that are locked cannot be touched via RP.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Markus Wilding