Triyun Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Mael your points don't really make much sense at all as you've not shown any evidence of their being space based radars that can track movement, the most you have shown is SAR imaging. The tech currently isn't there. Having radars online require a lot of power, especially one with a 600 kilometer scanning radius, which is very limited in space even with solar panels. Having the radar turned on all the time which is what you would need to know when to make those pings is even harder. The U.S. doesn't have this ability with China, the abilities it has relate much more closely to a lot of other classified stuff which is only hinted at in the open source literature plus satellites, plus and this is the most key, China's maritime geography and the face its encircled at sea. 30 minute updates of global or even regional shipping movements is not at all realistic unless they are giving away their position. What you're describing simply does not exist at all IRL and if it was possible to do at any reasonable cost we would do it cause it does have a lot of utility. But in reality it is much much patchier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) You are not a GM Triyun.And yes, it did, if you read my posts.. such a satellite did exist. It just de-orbited because they outsourced the launch. If you can't read all the content I've given related to the item in question I'm not going to bother reading your posts on the subject either. Edited August 18, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 You got ruled against Mael. Just drop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 No, as Hereno and I disagreed on the system. We are waiting on Ty to post his thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californian Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 In regards to the satellite tracking, I've taken the pleasure of independently going through the various threads and posts debating what Mael has implemented. The relevant rules are that military RP is limited to 2013 tech and must have been built/in use/active. I think the biggest issue is that Mael is implementing a system, as the satellite tracking of ships relies on several pieces of equipment and analyses to implement, whereas the RP rules deal mainly with whether a single piece of equipment is valid or not. From what I've read many of the pieces of this tracking system would be considered "built" as of last year, though there's no real life equivalent of the fast tracking method in place. This then becomes an argument of RP creativity - if a nation focused on building a bunch of these satellites using platforms and RTGs which have existed prior to 2013 had enough money and men to staff them, and used algorithms and computers that are shown to exist, can a player be allowed to RP out this system? From what I see here, Markus believes the answer is no because such a system as a whole does not yet exist while Hereno believes the answer is yes because the pieces exist and Mael has rightly or wrongly used them to RP out this tracking of ships. I personally feel strongly that this goes against the intentions of this RP to tone down the technobabble and advantages someone tries to get by creating new equipment or systems. As such, I will take a conservative approach and agree that the (near) real time tracking of ships would not be allowed. The tracking of all fleets across the globe in 30 min goes beyond the realm of what the RP allows for, but I do believe that with enough dedicated satellites and men the tracking time could be decreased to 1-2 days versus the 7+ days that it seems to currently take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) So let me see if I understand the determined ruling. The system would be effective, but not for real time tracking. It would take 1-2 days to acquire and track ships. I did give a conservative time frame that ran from several hours to a day or more to catalog a fleet. If my understanding is correct, then it's basically recognizing the system does work it's just that in terms of processing time we're going to favor a 1-2 day period to catalog fleets.. the conservative side of the time frame for processing and analysis? Am I correct on this understanding? If I am correct in this understanding the 1-2 day observation time requirement might be something we should post to the map thread for satellite monitoring and intelligence systems that have been thoroughly rp'd and developed. Just in the event someone else takes the same initiative. Edited August 19, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I believe you are correct in your thinking. 1-2 RP days would be needed to catalog a fleet, no active tracking. That being said, it should be assumed that nobody knows about things instantly unless it's within reason (on your border, in your waters, on your land, etc.). I personally do not believe a posting has to be put into the map thread regarding how long satellites monitor things. Intelligence systems very rightly fall under military technology, which as I'll point out many times, is limited dependent on nation statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 I'll do it in the Community-Approved™ manner next time. Having a change to how annexation works halfway through actually doing was somewhat jarring. I probably should've been a bit more clear on why I was doing it like this - the total population I'm integrating comes to approximately 17.4m people, meaning that it would only been three posts per "region" to annex. To that extent, I have three different two-liners. I just decided to specify each province for a sense of completeness. It seems like you did not decided to change your posting style, in fact copypasting from the post previous, on top of verbatim for multiple provinces. I know, it is difficult to actually spend 30 seconds per provinces upon wikipedia actually reading up about what exactly is in the provinces you are annexing, but I do not think it is asking an exceptional amount of energy out of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 OOC: Are you serious, I'm meeting the requirement for both, I'm just not double posting cause its bad forum etiquette? I moved this convo out of your thread so we don't clutter it up.He wasn't trying to say that your post was invalid; he saw that you wrote them together and was trying to make sure you knew that you had to actually write about each area in order to get your stuff on the map in time. No worries, man. You're fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 (edited) It seems like you did not decided to change your posting style, in fact copypasting from the post previous, on top of verbatim for multiple provinces. I know, it is difficult to actually spend 30 seconds per provinces upon wikipedia actually reading up about what exactly is in the provinces you are annexing, but I do not think it is asking an exceptional amount of energy out of you. These posts unfortunately do look gamey and terribly duplicated. They took little more.. in most cases.. than about 3-6 sentences and ctrl + c then ctrl+v punched several times to make. I had to be sent back to the drawing board once when I worked on annexing India because the content wasn't sufficiently relevent and then wrote a nice story about the rollout of the new government across the country. I think the same should happen here. Give us a story Horo, not headlines. If you want a good example, watch Vektor's work with his Iraq expansion. I'm actually quite impressed by the effort he's putting into it and am following it. Start here. Edited August 20, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 I moved this convo out of your thread so we don't clutter it up. He wasn't trying to say that your post was invalid; he saw that you wrote them together and was trying to make sure you knew that you had to actually write about each area in order to get your stuff on the map in time. No worries, man. You're fine. I did write two sentences about each region, I kept them in the same post though, is the clerical formatting a problem? Because otherwise I'm unsure where its a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 These posts unfortunately do look gamey and terribly duplicated. They took little more.. in most cases.. than about 3-6 sentences and ctrl + c then ctrl+v punched several times to make. I had to be sent back to the drawing board once when I worked on annexing India because the content wasn't sufficiently relevent and then wrote a nice story about the rollout of the new government across the country. I think the same should happen here. Give us a story Horo, not headlines. If you want a good example, watch Vektor's work with his Iraq expansion. I'm actually quite impressed by the effort he's putting into it and am following it. Start here. Are you and Mogar wanting us to take another look at our previous ruling, or are you attempting to challenge that ruling as community members? If either of those are the case, just say so and we'll go from there. Otherwise, please chastise Horo's RP outside of the GM thread so that Hereno isn't confused anymore. I did write two sentences about each region, I kept them in the same post though, is the clerical formatting a problem? Because otherwise I'm unsure where its a problem. The formatting was confusing to some people, which is what prompted Markus' post. Given your clarification, all is well. I'd recommend you not write it like that anymore in the future based on the confusion, but there are no problems that I see and no editing is necessary for it to count as one post towards each of the regions as you intended to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Are you and Mogar wanting us to take another look at our previous ruling, or are you attempting to challenge that ruling as community members? If either of those are the case, just say so and we'll go from there. Otherwise, please chastise Horo's RP outside of the GM thread so that Hereno isn't confused anymore. I was unaware there was a previous ruling. My apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatose Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I was under the impression that Persian/Japanese RP was suspended, pending some sort of ruling. If that is the case, why is the Imperium of Japan still building up arms? http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/121797-mitsubishi-heavy-industries/?p=3299963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Other GMs feel free to disagree, but I do not take that as responding to Persia. There are multiple countries both in Asia and elsewhere that have fleets larger than Japan, so I see no fault with this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 ICly, it was a method for me to acknowledge how many of the hayabusa class I created before any bullets started flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Alright everyone. We've come to a set of trilateral decisions. Given the circumstances at hand, we feel it is inappropriate to allow the Persian show of force to go into Japanese waters. Vektor has two options: he can either edit the post so that there is no stand-off with Japan, or the entire show of force is to be retconned. However, we understand and appreciate that the strait of Malacca is an important area, and so we are confirming that Persia does have sufficient interest in the Indian Ocean to challenge the Japanese, and so the subsequent stand-off and blockade undertaken by Persia is considered canonical. That RP is now unpaused, but Vektor has to tell one of the GMs whether or not he wants to edit the show of force post before he can continue on with the RP. Additionally, we want to express discontent with the Icelandic expedition into the Indian Ocean. It is the opinion of the GM team that this should have been retconned, but in recognition of how much RP has since happened that is at least partially dependent on that incident, we feel that we can no longer retcon it without screwing things up even worse, so we hesitantly confirm that this is incident is also canonical. --- As for Mogar's post since I paused the RP, I'm of the mind that it doesn't make much of a difference one way or another to the RP. This wasn't discussed among all three of us, but I agree with Markus' opinion on it. If he wants to consider that a ruling, I give my blessing, but whatever happens it is in no way dependent on the above decision which is wholly the work of the entire GM team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) It's not just Vektor, it's three nations who do not want the Japanese in the Indian Ocean. What rule did the IOC violate, which resulted in the retcon? Edited August 21, 2014 by Voodoo Nova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 It's not just Vektor, it's three nations who do not want the Japanese in the Indian Ocean. What rule did the IOC violate, which resulted in the retcon? Vektor has already stated his intentions to edit the post so that the Persian ships no longer go into Japanese waters. Only that and the subsequent almost-battle that happened in the Japanese waters are retconned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Requesting a spyroll on Triyun to determine if my servers can decrypt his message to the Cisalpine Republic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 How exactly was this intercept collected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 How exactly was this intercept collected? I don't know how valid of a reply this is to you, Markus, but I learned my lesson about doing spy rolls when the RP hasn't been included in the post. :P Go get me a link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 RP within The French Connection thread: Click me In addition, I've been actively collecting information on any messages sent in Europe, especially ones that are sent to and from the Eastern Bloc nations, Cisalpine Republic, or Great Britain, as I very clearly explain here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 So, you are intercepting communications sent from the Med to Northern Italy, which don't even pass through your territory, nor do you have RPd any method of interception in the Gulf of Genoa, where it'd be required in this instance. Feel free to explain this method of interception... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 I'll be perfectly frank, I have no idea how this sort of stuff works. That being said, any explanation I can offer would most likely not be acceptable to either you or Triyun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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