The GM's Hall

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I was referring to yours, not the thread itself. My spy rolls I can at least link to two posts that would assist in mine, no magical moles.

 

You mean those two recon "spy" posts you didn't request rolls for and that all you did was move troops around in and magically had successful outcomes. By your standards, don't think those count. You will be held to equal accountability. I answered a spy roll with a spy roll, that's fair to me.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

I am required to make a spy roll for operations in another person's country, I am not required to make a spy roll of doing reconnaissance, unless you'd like to make that a rule in which case your bullshit SATINT might come under even more fire.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I am required to make a spy roll for operations in another person's country, I am not required to make a spy roll of doing reconnaissance, unless you'd like to make that a rule in which case your !@#$%^&* SATINT might come under even more fire.

 

Grasping for another tangential threat or argument to make yours more legitimate.. *tsks*. If it's part of an espionage opreation... yes, I expect spy rolls. You seem to have indicated you expect every phase of an espionage op to have spy rolls. I simply ask the same. Also, satint is remote observation, not espionage.If it were the case then every fricken radar scan and satellite operation would require a spy roll.. so it makes your argument even more ludicrous.

 

Lets just stop.. let the gms have more time. I won't post another line if you don't post any more. I simply responding to your last statement. But if you must have the last word, I'll let you. Make it good. If you post again and I feel compelled to respond, it will be in the discussion bus.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

I expect something as intimate as placing a high level mole into another nation's military to require multiple successful rolls, there is a massive difference between a four year+ operation which would be required by placing a mole where you are suggesting(She'd have to be at least 22, since she would have to be an Officer in order to do the job she hypothetically has), and what would amount to at most an hour behind enemy lines.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Response in discussion bus.

[Markus Wilding]

Now, Ty may disagree on this, but here are my thoughts on the situation:

 

Regarding [post='3297533']this post[/post], Mael, you have put zero effort into RPing the presence or attempts to place a mole in Japanese high command. To my knowledge, there has been nothing in your past RP indicating you have done such a thing. With that in mind, I would recommend this post be wiped completely for the following reason(s):

• Blatant godmodding (using a Druk Yul agent in the Japanese military that had not been established prior by any RP)

 

You may have a CIA, and you may have hundreds of spies, but that does not give you, or anyone else for that matter, free reign to say "I have spies here" without any effort whatsoever. Mogar's rolls were reasonable as he had assets in the area that could act upon his orders. I realize everyone doesn't have the time to RP out the fine details, but that is not an excuse to cheat your way with a spyroll. With one post, Mael, you not only claimed the existence of a mole that was somehow attached to the exact general that was carrying out Mogar's plan, but you also claimed to have access to literally every single piece of information that would completely counter Japan's efforts to begin a false-flag war. If this isn't godmodding on a huge level, then butter my butt and call me a biscuit.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

So should I just edit my post? Put one line where I attempted to plant a mole.. request a spy roll.. then repost the same exact post if I get two successes? I just want to know what the expected standard is here.. because by mogar's accounts I should require six rolls. THen later they said if I had just put one post where I was forging my id or bribing my way end it would have been accepted. I just want a common standard we all must abide by. In my opinion our actions aren't entirely different. His just has more fluff. He rolled. I rolled. Not really much more of a mechanic to it. In game I'd just roll against his country and the action'd be done.

 

It's not god-modding because I'm countering one specific incident.One he initiated.

 

And quite frankly I don't see how roll versus roll can be god-modded.. how much more unbiased and neutral do you get than the system the game is based on? Everything else is opinion, these are raw numbers.

 

God modding implies I just did it without an attempt. I actually had a roll for it. God modding implies the action occured without the ability to counter, but mogar had his spy defenses, I just won against them.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I know the above isn't a ruling, but  I'm just giving my input on your thoughts, lets discuss it here some. I took the risk, I made the rolls. It was in response to his rp. In my opinion.. we should all operate under the assumption everyone else has spies in our territory. It's how it works in game. If I roll a spy op against you ig.. and I succeed, the results occur. Just as if I had a spy in your nation without allocating spies. It's totally unbiased.

 

The RP to have a CIA and an intelligence improvements is being a nation with those improvements and wonders. It's after all a game based off cn. It's part of being a modern nation. We should all mutually respect that we have these capabilities and use it to enhance the rp not be using it to throttle each other using rules lawyering to void rp.

 

In reality, the US has spies everywhere. So does every major power. A more accurate and realistic system would simply have contested rolls. If I did something against target a, target a could roll back against me in a counter operation to attempt to mitigate my efforts. The measure of success or failure of both parties would determine final outcome.

 

Putting a requirement on a post count merely favors the rp to those who have the time to make ridiculous #s of posts and only makes the rp bureaucratic. It doesn't really improve the rp and will only lead to garbage posting to meet requirements. We need a KISS system that allows the use of espionage without requiring a novel for every espionage interaction as in theory my spies should be active around the globe in every country to various degrees dependent on need.

 

Keep in mind as I recommend this system, I too would be subject to the same rules. Exceptions could be made for over the top stuff.. such as say planting a nuke somewhere to blow up someone's base or capitol which would require a few more rolls and posts. But typical espionage work, leaking data.. that happens all the time in reality and it's ridiculous we're having this conversation simply because one player cannot accept the fact they lost in a single situation and adapt to it. It is ruining the rp. Heck, only reason I did this was to set up the RP mirror of wikileaks for the fun of it.

 

At this point I'm steered towards avoiding future intel network and espionage and intel rp all together just to save headache.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Markus Wilding]

If you edit then repost as you suggest, I would still have a major issue with that post since, according to Mogar on IRC:

 

[08:35:38] <Mogar> also for the record, it's not Japan's actual government setting up the false flag attack

[08:35:42] <Mogar> it is literally one particular general

 

So not only would you need to know that this general is planning this false flag, you would need to get to his camp, bribe/convince your way to his side, not be caught by him (I would imagine generals know their secretaries/aides/bum-wipers) and then steal or make copies of the footage all without someone getting suspicious. This is a level of coincidences that only happen by an act of God with a strange sense of humor in RL.

 

I consider your post godmodding because, as I said, there is no effort put in to place this mole within the Japanese command. Just a simple line at the end of "oh, it's a 20 year old secretary of the general who is secretly a Druk Yul agent". Where was that RP? When were they established as Druk Yul agents? When was ANY Druk Yul agent established inside the Japanese military? There is no reasonable answer, because as I also pointed out, just because you have a CIA wonder and plenty of spies IG does not give you free reign to just slap an agent down wherever convenient for you. It is my opinion that you will need to work for this intelligence, and you will need to actually spell out how exactly your agents are getting in and getting access to this information. This applies to EVERYONE who wants to look at stuff they shouldn't - you will need to work for it.

 

EDIT2: This also is not the place to discuss such things, take that to the Discussion Bus.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Markus Wilding

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It happens all the time in RL. People in the right/wrong place at a certain time. Such people have changed the course of history many times. Do I really need to go through a list of historical coincidental intelligence windfalls to point this out? It's very simple. I succeeded on my rolls.. fair and square.. I get to determine what happens as a result of them unless countered!

 

Again, god moding implies there was no system to give Mogar a defense. Mogar had a defense.. his own espionage system! I simply won my tests against it.

 

You will work for it is code for, "It is a system of opinions and biases that is not based on a fundamental and fair decision making process that biases in favor of players with the time to spend all day at their computers posting." I work in reality, jack, how bout you?

 

Tell my why I should bother, based on your system, even trying to use espionage unless I'm a text wall poster?

 

As for your last comment, you were the one who pointed me here to discuss it, going there now.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Markus Wilding]

It happens all the time in RL. People in the right/wrong place at a certain time. Such people have changed the course of history many times. Do I really need to go through a list of historical coincidental intelligence windfalls to point this out? It's very simple. I succeeded on my rolls.. fair and square.. I get to determine what happens as a result of them unless countered!

 

Again, god moding implies there was no system to give Mogar a defense. Mogar had a defense.. his own espionage system! I simply won my tests against it.

 

You will work for it is code for, "It is a system of opinions and biases that is not based on a fundamental and fair decision making process that biases in favor of players with the time to spend all day at their computers posting." I work in reality, jack, how bout you?

 

Tell my why I should bother, based on your system, even trying to use espionage unless I'm a text wall poster?

 

No, you do not need to do so. As has been pointed out in different arguments before, CNRP2 does not work like real life. In real life, world militaries aren't restricted by arbitrary numbers, world leaders aren't 28-39 years old, nations don't collapse on a weekly basis, and nuclear radiation isn't something people have to deal with on a daily basis.

 

What is Mogar to do to counter your post? There is nothing he can do. You set your post up in such a way that there is no counter that does not expose the Japanese general of wrongdoing. There is no way for him to save face.

 

It's also code for "you don't get a free ride because you have wonders and lots of IG stuff". I would have put this exact same argument on Mogar if he tried to infiltrate your government with one post using a secretary in your capital.

 

Why should I bother going to war with the Eastern Bloc when they forcibly removed me from Poland and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern? Because there's things that we have to RP that we may not necessarily want to. I'm not telling you that you have to put down a wall of text, although I know you're definitely capable of it. I'm telling you that it won't be as simple as a one and done instantwin spyroll.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Then do as I suggested, Just have Mogar roll a counter. If he succeeds on both , I'll revise the post and he'll have killed the spy before the leak is made. If he succeeds on one I'll get the information out, but he'll know who is responsible. That way our espionage systems are actually working against each other.

It's not arbitrary, respects my successes and will easily put the rp on track to a fair outcome. Heck, give him a 20% bonus for good rp from me towards his roll objective for good rp. I'll admit he did more work on it than me.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Opinion of the rest of the GM team on my ship/aircraft?

Edited August 16, 2014 by Evangeline Anovilis

[Beauty]

Are we still doing the discussion then vote thing to pass new resolutions or has it changed? (No before anyone puts words in my mouth, I am not bitching about anyone's land in this potential proposal)

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Last request for hopefully 24 or more hours.. "Whatever the spy rule is determined to be.. map thread.. pronto."

[Hereno]

Opinion of the rest of the GM team on my ship/aircraft?

 
I want to let Ty have a look at it. Markus was against both, but Lynneth was for both, and I'm currently undecided.

Are we still doing the discussion then vote thing to pass new resolutions or has it changed? (No before anyone puts words in my mouth, I am not !@#$%*ing about anyone's land in this potential proposal)

As far as I know this is correct.

[Beauty]

Ok well I posted one already anyway. I was gonna ask in IRC but chu know.

[Markus Wilding]

After taking some time to talk to Voodoo, I'm giving a tentative ruling on Maelstrom Vortex's satellites. Logs below for posterity reasons.

 

Maelstrom, you are currently using your satellites to actively track fleets using radar. After taking some time to look at the technology, I have to say that you cannot do such a thing. You can have analysts that look over the images the software is giving them, but the technology is not there to actively track a fleet at sea, nor be able to distinguish nation of origin. I have no choice but to rule it as implausible and should be revised.

 

Logs:

 

[spoiler][14:59:31] <Voodoo> What are yall going to do about Mael's magic-satellite?

[14:59:59] <Markus_Wilding> magic-satellite?

[15:00:19] <Voodoo> The things he's using to track fleets in real-time

[15:00:34] <Markus_Wilding> ah

[15:02:34] <Voodoo> with satellites that don't exist

[15:03:59] <Markus_Wilding> that is a problem

[15:04:16] <Voodoo> because, as I'm reading it, he's using active radar from space

[15:09:43] <Voodoo> http://www.janes.com/article/28503/us-navy-software-improves-satellite-imagery-analysis-for-maritime-detection

[15:10:00] <Voodoo> As for him using Rapier as proof of it being operational, it's not

[15:10:13] <Voodoo> Rapier is merely a software on a computer that detects anomalies

[15:11:02] <Voodoo> and requires other software to possibly identify things

[15:11:08] <Voodoo> It cannot see flags or work in color

[15:13:28] <Markus_Wilding> from what little i do understand of this (and not able to really consult ty or hereno on this right now) it sounds like this should be as impossible as eva's soviet carrier

[15:13:37] <Voodoo> Well

[15:13:44] <Voodoo> The concept is being worked on

[15:13:48] <Voodoo> but not in the way Mael thinks

[15:14:25] <Voodoo> The whole system, Rapier, AIS, etc as one can find anomalies and help analysts find things faster

[15:14:31] <Voodoo> but it can't track anything

[15:14:49] <Voodoo> Analysts still need to sift through the images, the system just helps them point out more anomalies

[15:15:33] <Markus_Wilding> well, here's the main question

[15:15:38] <Markus_Wilding> is it operable in 2013?

[15:15:42] <Voodoo> No

[15:15:44] <Markus_Wilding> er, not operable

[15:15:47] <Markus_Wilding> in active service

[15:15:50] <Voodoo> Nope

[15:16:11] <Voodoo> Because the system, as it is now, is pretty limited in it's scope and use

[15:16:26] <Markus_Wilding> then there's definitely no way he can use it to track things

[15:16:42] <Voodoo> The Ship Detection system works as a part of Rapier

[15:16:46] <Voodoo> Rapier is not deployed

[15:17:09] <Voodoo> err

[15:17:13] <Voodoo> It's used by ONI

[15:17:40] <Voodoo> but not for tracking

[15:18:01] <Voodoo> or for ship detection

[15:19:15] <Voodoo> Not at this point in time, anyways

[15:20:16] <Voodoo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level

[15:20:22] <Voodoo> So you can see what TRL 8 stands for

[15:23:35] <Markus_Wilding> so the entire system is at 8 right now?

[15:24:22] <Voodoo> Each of the parts

[15:24:29] <Voodoo> Ship Detection, Rapier

[15:24:36] <Voodoo> but not for tracking

[15:24:43] <Voodoo> That's beyond its capabilities

[15:26:12] <Markus_Wilding> so the system is designed purely for, in layman's terms, giving analysts images and saying "hey, look at these, something's kinda off"?

[15:26:23] <Voodoo> Yea

[15:26:40] <Voodoo> So it just cuts down time spending looking at images

[15:26:59] <Voodoo> Could it be used for tracking in the far future? Sure, when they get to the video stuff

[15:27:05] <Voodoo> but that's years away

[15:27:30] <Markus_Wilding> mmk

[15:27:34] <Markus_Wilding> i think i get it now[/spoiler]

 

Other GMs may disagree with me. This act is not final. Stay in school, kids.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Markus, was the following information considered in your ruling?

http://www.public.navy.mil/spawar/Pacific/TechTransfer/ProductsServices/Pages/RAPIER(RAPidImageExploitationResource)ShipDetectionSystem.aspx

That system was just published for public use by the US Navy and has been in use for years prior to 2011. It just literally was patented in 2011. I doubt they'd publish and patent a system that didn't work. The page in question even indicates the system is and has been in use. It even has pictures from an existing platform.

I don't even know why you're looking at video as part of the platform. The satellites do not use videos. They just snap high resolution photos. Something satellites have been doing from orbit from ages.

I literally take a radar scan, take an image shot, and then post it to a board on the wall in the command center with the location and id of the fleet, assuming it can be id'd by markers from orbit. Some can, some can't.. depends on if they're flying a flag or masking their id and whether the ships are unique to a particular navy. I should definitely be able to track a fleet, but not necessarily know its owner unless it has been tracked from a port of origin or meets one of the prior criteria.

I note when I say "fleet" underwater vessels are excluded. Can't see what's not on the surface.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Markus Wilding]

Nothing in there seems to indicate to me that you can use said system to track fleets and identify a nation of origin. Even the images used on that site are black and white, which are useless on a top-down perspective. From what I can tell, the system is designed to find and hand an image to an analyst for further study, not be able to spit out "look, here's where the enemy fleet is". It is far from being able to do anything like track and identify a moving fleet.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

That's what the cameras would be used for. Once say rapier finds a "Carrier" class vessel by its size and dimensions. The next thing that would happen is the cameras on board that satellite or the next one to pass over that area by orbit would zoom in and capture a high res image of that vessel. Rapier and the AIS are being used to keep track of the location of the fleets and their dimensions and vessel count. The cameras are being used to ID the vessels and I've previously posted what Carriers look like if you know exactly where to look and take a picture of them from space. They look like this:

http://www.thewire.com/global/2011/12/chinas-first-aircraft-carrier-seen-space/46202/

Now if I see that say.. sailing out of Vektor's harbor.. I'd know there was a good chance it was his ship unless there were visits there by other nations recently.

[Markus Wilding]

Please explain this post, then, if all your system is doing is taking pictures.

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123354-south-indian-ocean-exploration/?p=3294043

 

And this one.

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123416-global-alert-druk-yul-to-test-nuclear-warhead-in-cocos-islands/#entry3294824

 

And this one.

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123416-global-alert-druk-yul-to-test-nuclear-warhead-in-cocos-islands/#entry3294676

 

And this one.

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/122947-druk-yul-sponsored-international-space-program/page-3#entry3290851

 

This is just to July 29th. I'm sure if I go through more of your posts I can find more just like this. You have actively and continually posted about tracking other people's naval assets, which as has been discussed, is impossible with the technology as it is. Do I really need to go back to when you first started in this RP to point out more instances, or will you revise your systems to be in line with 2013's technological limitations?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Yes, that's actually very simple really.

They're not a single one using video. THey're simply using a tracking board. Kind of like a weather plotter might track a hurricane or an old ww2 war room might track the movement of troops.

Your definition of "tracking" seems much more extravagant than mine.

The only thing I'm using the satellites for is getting a radar scan, taking a photo, and posting the image to a plotter board. That's my definition of "Tracking". It will allow me to know what the fleet is, where it's located, it's general direction, where I can expect to find it on the next fly-over of the next satellite so the position can be updated, sometimes depending on the situation and the quality of the image return.. who owns it unless I already know that by where the fleet originated from. I cannot use the images to say "lock an antiship missile" as the data would be out of date by the time it was used.

The whole process actually takes about 30 minutes to execute. However, in tandem with OTH radars and other equipment more precise locks can be acquired.

The same is true for commercial tracking, except that if the ship has a transponder, the data can be updated with the transponder as well and is actually easier to register.

The third post may be slightly confusing to those not familiar with the RP. The ARES mentioned in that system was the missile system used to deliver the satellites. You have the ARES missiles.. and you have the ARES satellites. ARES missiles/rockets deliver payloads to orbit and nuclear warheads kind of like the old Titan series from Nasa. The ares satellites work as I have been describing as a tandem radar and imaging tracking system that relays positional data to the surface for identification and plotting.

 

The satellites over the island in question took high resolution of whatever was on the island and the fleets in the region. We had pictures, not real time streaming video. We knew who was there. Video isn't required for that.

Example map representing the data:

 

Anything more than what I'm describing above would require a nearby radar on the surface, a drone, or some other intelligence to peg and monitor an exact current position for weapons targeting that isn't pointed at a general area.. like say.. a nuke.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

You have yet to link a satellite though that has radar and imaging built in the same system. RAPIER also, as Voodoo has pretty clearly shown, is not a functional system at this time. A primary part is at trl 8 but the things needed to work in unison with it aren't. The fact that they have filed for a patent does not mean it's in active use.

[Hereno]

The technology is quite clearly in existence. That's not what I'm worried about. The two aspects that matter are:

1. How quickly targets can be identified.
2. How accurately they can be tracked.

With the crux being whether or not it is feasible that these already-existing technological systems could be applied to tracking naval movements in the way that Mael is doing. At this moment, I don't see what the big deal is. No naval fleets are just going to sneak across the planet.

That's not a ruling, it's how I feel based on the information given so far.