The GM's Hall

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I can provide information on how satellite apperature satellite radar and even give you images of the resolution quality. Can you give me evidence that the United States has trouble tracking.. not global shipping.. but global fleet movements.. the latter is an altogether different matter and has been done since the cold war via a combination of intel systems.

 

Global shipping's only a problem because there's so much to track. Capital ships.. on the other hand.. are far less common. And big ships like a capitol ship fleet.. are even rarer in gigantic blobs like a carrier formation.

 

Do you realize an aircraft carrier stands a minimum of 175 feet above the surface height of the ocean? Do you understand how huge the radar return is on that?

 

It would take 1-2 days and multiple passes to make sure they didn't miss being imaged.. but they would eventually be id'd and imaged and then added to a tracking board for future passes.

 

I'm sorry, but if you think you can hide a mass of metal that large and spread out to a modern power with a space program.. it's delusional.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Mogar]

not to mention again, there is only two ways to get a fleet there, one of which I have my best equipment watching constantly, the other requiring far more than a few hours longer to go by but would at least provide more of a "surprise", but also would realistically be picked up by Tikal's numerous assets in the Atlantic.

[Triyun]

A very valid complaint, especially considering that Zoot then used the magic teleport to attack another player's assets, ie your fleet and island. Any of the mentioned parties would've at least stopped the Norse fleet to question their motives and destination.

Also, in the Atlantic, Tikal would likely have seen the Norse fleet's movements, got curious and informed its allies about it.

 

Zoot, do you have anything to add to this or defend your actions?

 

No you wouldn't have.

[Zoot Zoot]

I dispute none of what Mogar is saying, however I did sail via the Atlantic, whilst it is not specified in the RP itself. Secondly as there is no nation thus far with a policy/doctrine blocking access to any ocean that I know of, I did not deem it a problem that I sailed through international waters into the Indian.

 

As far as Tikals claims are concerned, I call BS, and it is unfitting of a GM arbitrating a dispute to make some comments for fear of accusations of bias, something your personal attitude towards me Lynneth on IRC about this whole thing, has shown nothing but that.

 

As for Mael, unless you have systems in the southern oceans that can relay such precise information to your satellites, or for that matter, even know what you were looking for and why, your claim is also voided. Given how new my nation is nobody would have any reason to be curious about a European fleets movements unless it was a European state or an African state given the course of sail. Only when it entered the Indian would that become a reality. Secondly, unless you have assets specifically watching the sea lines between South Africa and Antarctica. If you can show me the RP describing this, then fine, but I don't think there is.

 

In short, the course of my fleet would of nullified most detection by most states apart from Europe and Africa until I entered the Indian and closed within range of functioning OTH radar stations, something Japan does not yet have in the Indian ocean that war west.

 

As far as 'magically' teleporting my fleet, I argue this, the first response Mogar should of had was to intercept my fleet much earlier if he wants to use that argument, and he never did, and neither did anybody else, he RP'd on recognising the arrival of my ships and the following engagement. The 'magic ships' argument/dispute, is one that should of been made when it was relevent, and not mid way through the RP. The only instance of this being applicable in this senario given how its panned out is the instant deployment of Spartan, Novakian and Australian fleets to within range in one post, during the course of an engagement that is still ICly, in the first hour, if not first half hour.

 

I leave it for Rudy and Bio to make judgment as I do not trust Lynneths judgment in this instance, even though he is not involved ICly, his feelings are quite clear OOCly.

[Mogar]

so I should just say "well your entire post didn't actually happen, dodododo continue building radar stations", instead I did attempt to create a RP with you, which you then attacked me in, as such I am going to treat it entirely differently than the thread with Uber, as Uber didn't start firing at me and we had a clear OOC discussion before he posted a thread of the general direction the thread would go, as opposed to you intentionally antagonizing me.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Zoot, you are not a GM you cannot void my claim. I know how satellites work.. and I have mine in LEO at 0 eccentricity in evenly spaced orbital rings scanning over 21,200 km2 of the earth's surface every  5 seconds with radar and imaging systems. You may be missed in a couple passes, but your ships WOULD be located and imaged.. and eventually once imaged, they would be identified. Saying fleets are a needle in a haystack on the world's ocean is a myth. The earth's circumference is only 40,075 km. That should give you an idea how much ground I'm covering.

 

I can cover 366,336,000 km2 in a 24 hour period. Surface area of earth: surface area of earth 510.1 million km². Number of passes needed for total coverage: 1.5

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Hereno]

Not Public

The Hungarian military detected the fueling of the nuclear missiles in Milan, and therefore all military and government leadership were able to make it safely into bomb shelters, as did most of the citizens.

Challenging this on the following grounds:

1. You wouldn't "detect" Milan "fueling" (what the fuck) our nukes. There is no prior RP of any surveillance or even interest in Milan by you or any of the others.
2. Even if you could know, you would have only a few minutes to respond.
3. There's no way you have all of these bomb shelters and shit, and there's no prior RP.
4. You don't even have an SDI, this is some top tier gamey bullshit, man.

[The Zigur]

It's pretty funny that Zoot is teleporting fleets when he had my nation wiped for spawning mine

[Euphaia]

It's been possible to detect fueling of ICBMs since the mid 90's.  Watch 'Crimson Tide'.

 

Besides, why the hell do you want to kill off even more civilians?  Is your government that twisted?

 

Is several thousand innocent civilian deaths not enough for you?

 

I mentioned the death of 50,000 soldiers and the billions of dollars worth of devastation you were likely after the most, at the top of the RP post, under Non-Public.

 

It doesn't much matter, anyways.  I'm not withdrawing from the Alvonian border.  The war continues.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Euphaia

[Hereno]

It's been possible to detect fueling of ICBMs since the mid 90's.  Watch 'Crimson Tide'.
 
Besides, why the hell do you want to kill off even more civilians?  Is your government that twisted?

Why would I launch nukes for them to not kill anybody? Also, considering the way I'm looking at this map, your entire border build up is probably toast. 5 nukes is more than enough to give anyone on that border /at least/ third degree burns and nerve damage if they're spread out evenly, with most of them being killed instantly. I want the damages RP'd out correctly.



That's just three there, just as a demonstration. And I launched another at Budapest and three more at the border like that. Any troops along the border would be incapable of operating. You basically just tried to shrug off 7 nukes like it was nothing. Edited August 6, 2014 by Hereno

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It's pretty funny that Zoot is teleporting fleets when he had my nation wiped for spawning mine

 

I actually agree :P There is a certain irony here.

[Euphaia]

Then you really are twisted, if you really want more civilian death. :P  Several thousand is plenty.

 

No, 10-15% is about all the soldiers you'd kill with five nukes.  I'd be about 25 miles of damage, out of at least 300 miles of border.

 

I didn't shrug it off.  I ackowledged a 10% loss of troops, several thousand civilian deaths, and billions of dollars worth of devastation.

 

I also publicly mentioned that Mlian hit Budapest, my capital, with the two nukes.

 

 That's plenty.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Euphaia

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It's been possible to detect fueling of ICBMs since the mid 90's.  Watch 'Crimson Tide'.

 

Besides, why the hell do you want to kill off even more civilians?  Is your government that twisted?

 

Is several thousand innocent civilian deaths not enough for you?

 

I mentioned the death of 50,000 soldiers and the billions of dollars worth of devastation you were likely after the most, at the top of the RP post, under Non-Public.

 

It doesn't much matter, anyways.  I'm not withdrawing from the Alvonian border.  The war continues.

 

This is not correct. It is possible to fuel ICBMs without it being detected if they're in silos.. and the only way to detect fueling icbms outside of silos is to know their position so they can be monitored. With no rp of intelligence gathering you'd not know where the icbms are at to watch them take on fuel. It's not like a fuel truck hooking up to an ICBM generates an electromagnetic return like the ir signatures of an icbm launch.

 

In my case, I'd be able to note and track truck mounted icbms because of an extensive satellite network I have actively rp'd the deployment of with the necessary equipment to note and track said equipment.

 

That said, either way.. Hungary is a mess. :P I think Euphaia's casualties meet with expectations, but that's just my sentiment. I'm just a third party unbiased observer to this event. Just trying to help keep it real.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Euphaia]

Fine.  I'll change it to just detecting their launch, then.

 

I won't change the amount of civilian deaths just for Hereno's twisted pleasure though.

[Hereno]

In my case, I'd be able to note and track truck mounted icbms because of an extensive satellite network I have actively rp'd the deployment of with the necessary equipment to note and track said equipment.

so much technobabble about everything :<

---

I'm not trying to be a dick about the nukes and all but considering I'm prolly gonna be toast and am precluded from going into Britain now I at least want my shit to be accurate and even you know.

[Euphaia]

They were accurate enough to cause billions in devastation and 50,000 military deaths. :P

 

It's inaccurate to say that they'd have a big enough blast radius to affect more than 25 miles out of a good 300-500 miles of border.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Challenging this on the following grounds:

1. You wouldn't "detect" Milan "fueling" (what the $%&@) our nukes. There is no prior RP of any surveillance or even interest in Milan by you or any of the others.
2. Even if you could know, you would have only a few minutes to respond.
3. There's no way you have all of these bomb shelters and !@#$, and there's no prior RP.
4. You don't even have an SDI, this is some top tier gamey !@#$%^&*, man.

Honestly, you don't even need to see the refueling to avoid the death of politicians. They may have just been camping at Lake Balaton or god knows where they were.

 

And 4. does not even make sense. It's not like the RP states the nukes were shot down.

 

so much technobabble about everything :<

---

I'm not trying to be a dick about the nukes and all but considering I'm prolly gonna be toast and am precluded from going into Britain now I at least want my !@#$ to be accurate and even you know.

You got noone to blame but yourself. You decided to use nukes for whatever defense, now it's war till unconditional surrender. No reason for me to be any bit friendlier or back down before lolnukers.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

They were accurate enough to cause billions in devastation and 50,000 military deaths. :P

 

It's inaccurate to say that they'd have a big enough blast radius to affect more than 25 miles out of a good 300-500 miles of border.

 

You can get 3rd degree burns over a 25 km radius from both missiles, or a 50km diameter. Two nukes, 100km diameter sum. You will have up to 3rd degree burns over a 62.1371 mile long line along the border. That's a huge humanitarian catastrophe. You won't have enough doctors in the area to treat most of these as they will be burned themselves. Initial deaths may not be high, but deaths from those burns if not rapidly treated could sky-rocket over time. Not to mention the REM exposure.

 

Fortunately, he specified an airburst in his post, so fall out will be minimial, but you'll still have a large # of radiation deaths. Your post for  casualties is a good initial number, but your death count doesn't stop there.. it starts there.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Hereno]

Honestly, you don't even need to see the refueling to avoid the death of politicians. They may have just been camping at Lake Balaton or god knows where they were.
 
And 4. does not even make sense. It's not like the RP states the nukes were shot down.
 
You got noone to blame but yourself. You decided to use nukes for whatever defense, now it's war till unconditional surrender. No reason for me to be any bit friendlier or back down before lolnukers.

Yeah, they could, but this entire post of yours shows you missed the point behind my pseudo-silly post. It was making fun of all of the elawyering and stretching of reality that everybody here does in order to give themselves an advantage. I RP in good faith, and all of my characters are flawed and mortal. But everybody wants to "oh they were doing X" or blah blah blah, yeah you can make an excuse to win in pretty much any situation but I'm not the kind of person who does that. If you nuke me, I'm going to RP being nuked the way I think it would actually happen.

I'm not blaming anybody for anything - Lynneth said I could reroll, flat out, but I've chosen not to. Euphaia actually cares about his nation and it would be wrong for me to expect him to eat nukes without giving him at least the shot at warring me to get some revenge. But that's also why I want to make sure my nukes are treated fairly... if someone is going to beat me in a war, they need to beat me fair and square. Edited August 6, 2014 by Hereno

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Also wanted to mention for those concerned about my satellite spotting abilities, while it may take me 2-3 days to identify you with active identification; if you use your  active radar for your fleet even once.. you're going to show up like a giant red lightbulb on passive radar detection.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

I'm not blaming anybody for anything - Lynneth said I could reroll, flat out, but I've chosen not to.

Wow, you must be some paragon of virtue to not reroll after ragenuking. Please, tell us more about some of the wondrous deeds you've done - we'd love to know.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Horo, might I ask the value in your post to this discussion or are you just out to throw a temper tantrum?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Euphaia]

I respect that you want your nukes to be treated fairly.   That is all I am trying to do too.  I actually put a bit of research into nukes as best as I could (given that there's only been two nuclear explosions in history and they were 70 years ago).  No more than 5 miles of damage per nuke, is what I was able to find.   

 

My best guess is that the Alvonia-Hungary border is at least 300 miles long, probably more.  So  I am unable to see how realistically 5 nukes would kill  500,000 to 600,000 worth of troops, stretched out over 300+ miles, would all be wiped out.

 

I RPed what I thought was a fair-to-both-sides  estimate of 50,000 troops deaths, and I RPed that Budapest has billions of dollars worth of devastaion, meaning a good deal has been completely destroyed by your nukes.  That is what seemed like a fair estimate to me, based on the information I was able to find.

[Biohazard]

To Horo, and to anyone else who is spewing hate in this thread.

 

[b]Stop mucking it up.[/b]

 

I will personally ban anyone from the IRC channel, should you guys continue to hurl insults at each other. I've asked once before, and I've asked multiple times on IRC. 

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I respect that you want your nukes to be treated fairly.   That is all I am trying to do too.  I actually put a bit of research into nukes as best as I could (given that there's only been two nuclear explosions in history and they were 70 years ago).  No more than 5 miles of damage per nuke, is what I was able to find.   

 

My best guess is that the Alvonia-Hungary border is at least 300 miles long, probably more.  So  I am unable to see how realistically 5 nukes would kill  500,000 to 600,000 worth of troops, stretched out over 300+ miles, would all be wiped out.

 

I RPed what I thought was a fair-to-both-sides  estimate of 50,000 troops deaths, and I RPed that Budapest has billions of dollars worth of devastaion, meaning a good deal has been completely destroyed by your nukes.  That is what seemed like a fair estimate to me, based on the information I was able to find.

 

The only nukes used in war in history were sub megaton yields.  The 5 megaton yields are significantly larger, by like a factor of 500 times stronger.

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19711107&id=ICEsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2p0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=2430,746385

 

http://www.nevadasurveyor.com/cannikin/

 

The ground quake alone from this 5 megaton test registered 7 on the richter scale. The surface blast wave.. 4.8. Unfortunately for us, and fortunately for the world, there were few tests by this level of power that were detonated above ground to know what a crater would look like. Most were either vastly larger.. or vastly smaller, or done underground.

 

If, for example, you detonated this over Cincinnati Ohio, you'd flatten the city itself.. leave a crater over most of downtown.. and irradiate the surrounding counties to unsurvivability. You'd kill at a minimum 250,000 of 300,000 people. Thew few that would survive, the 50k, would be dead in days if they didn't know how to protect from radiation and most would still die even if they did. The few that did survive.. would be in deep shadowed places.. like parking garages under a lot of concrete.. IF they can get out of the collapsed areas, they MIGHT live.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex