The GM's Hall

[The Zigur]

Zoot should detail these technological upgrades so they can be researched and countered appropriately.

[Triyun]

Making it nuclear powered I would object too as would I to equipping it with much DEW (though a limited amount is reasonable i.e. whats currently on service on that Amphib).  That requires huge rebuilding of hulls that would be inappropriate to classify as upgrades.  The biggest challenge is to make a nuclear powered electric drive (the only conventional surface ship electric drive is the Zumwalt, which is not nuclear powered).  You need an electric drive to power a lot of DEWs.  So that tech is a bit far off. As far as the guns, I think that by 1991 there isn't much to improve on.    Do keep in mind 'Murica invented computers to do artillery shelling.  I think that the biggest thing is that you could do some limited radar upgrades and upgrade the software on the CIWS.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Triyun

[Zoot Zoot]

Also for the record

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/123031-information-bureau-of-milan/?p=3290740

 

I am contesting Herenos suddenly development of anti ship ballistic missiles and massive stockpiles of said weapons. It comes nearly five days after I declared war on him RL, it comes after i provided a detailed breakdown of military forces arrayed against him, and it comes after Tywin suggested them in the OOC2 thread earlier this evening during mine and Eva's little argument.

 

I am calling this out as a godmod, and I wont be recognising their usage against me in this war at all given the cheating circumstances of their sudden appearence in his roleplay.

[Rudolph]

Anything under current rules is permissible as long as there is prior RP (IE: Development) for them in the first place, be it a country working out the kinks of their modernized battleships to ensure they work properly or a country developing ASBM's.

[Lynneth]

I hereby confirm Rudolph's post.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I consider ASBMs to be standard munitions given I'm rping what is mostly a missile porcupine in terms of strategic capability. This isn't to note pros or cons for the argument.. as that's already been determined, but just for future note in case someone questions my possession of lots of them.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Zoot Zoot]

Its not his usage I am contesting, its that he suddenly has lots and lots of them in the middle of a war with zero prior rp, and I would like a ruling on wether his suddenly development of them is godmodding or not.

[Triyun]

An ASBM is extaordinarily complicated possessing a massive acquisition and kill chain.  A lot of RP would probably be required.  Also they aren't being acquired in large amounts.

[Hereno]

Its not his usage I am contesting, its that he suddenly has lots and lots of them in the middle of a war with zero prior rp, and I would like a ruling on wether his suddenly development of them is godmodding or not.

 

My military stuff still isn't done, as can be seen by looking at the OP of my information thread. Also, I don't have "lots and lots" of them... go re-read the post. It's not even a deal-breaker, it's just a cool missile. Moreover, I didn't ask you (Zoot) to attack me... you attacked me knowing I didn't have everything I have listed out yet. Triyun is waiting for me to do so before he attacks, and he will benefit by knowing my full force composition. Why should you gain that same advantage without having to wait and work with me? Not just that same advantage, but now you can tell me what my own military has to be? Maybe I shouldn't have been so light-hearted about the Iowa thing earlier, considering you're going to lawyer like fuck about everything apparently... I wonder what of your own forces would be gone if you were subjected to your treatment?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

An ASBM is extaordinarily complicated possessing a massive acquisition and kill chain.  A lot of RP would probably be required.  Also they aren't being acquired in large amounts.

 

Hogwash.. every major modern country has them, even Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_ballistic_missile

 

They're no more complicated than any other ballistic munitions system. If you want us to rp out in detail the creation of these.. then we need to do the same for every major capitol ship, every icbm we build, every mrls system we deploy, every sky guard.. etc.. etc.. because there are systems in common use of comparable complexity. You just don't want your ships to get sunk because people were ready to be protected from them.

 

Every tomahawk would have to be rp'd out. Every amraam build.. I'm just saying.. the tech is common in 2014.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Zoot Zoot]

Its not e-lawyering, its mutual respect, if you won't show me any after the concession I gave you, that's fine, its in the GMs hands. But if you don't respond to my attack in the next 3 days, ill request an auto advance.

[Hereno]

Its not e-lawyering, its mutual respect, if you won't show me any after the concession I gave you, that's fine, its in the GMs hands. But if you don't respond to my attack in the next 3 days, ill request an auto advance.

It is not a concession for you to /actually tell me what is attacking me/. I don't have to speed up and go do a bunch of military work just because you've decided you want to attack me before I have things ready. Nothing has forced you to attack me. I never provoked Babylon or Sparta for that matter. If you're going to just be a jerk about everything, then leave me alone and RP with someone else. How about you and Triyun attack each other, like you OOC told me was going to happen when you helped Markus and I? Then you could both RP a war, which is what you want, and I could continue bothering nobody and being Milan over here in Italy.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

Damn. Always comes back to Triyun. :(

[Zoot Zoot]

It is what it is, the battleship ruling isn't clear so could the gms explain if I can use them or not in this war, and can I have a godmodding ruling made please, especially now as hereno is saying he will not respond at all until his military development rp is complete.

[Lynneth]

You get your battleship. You didn't RP working out the kinks, so nothing of the post-1991 things will work exactly as intended. You'll have to RP them appropriately. All the problems. Hereno can use the ASBMs, considering that his arsenal isn't anywhere near complete. Incomplete information doesn't give you a free pass.

[Zoot Zoot]

I'll be waiting for confirmation from Bio and Rudy on the ASBM ruling given the circumstances.

[Hereno]

Damn. Always comes back to Triyun. :(

They're both hitting me. One is acting differently, so I use Triyun as an example of being courteous, and that's "it coming back to Triyun"? If anything, I complimented Triyun. They can both gtfo of my territories, though. <_<
 

hereno is saying he will not respond at all until his military development rp is complete.

This never happened. Straight out of nowhere, just lie after lie...

Thank you, GMs, for being reasonable.

[Captain Enema]

Would both of you stop moaning and get to rping? Hiding in the GM thread each and every time something doesn't go exactly the way you want it isn't rp. 

[The Zigur]

Hereno, make sure to attack Zoot on the specific nature of his technological upgrades, including the exact modules used for his upgrades.

[Triyun]

 

Hogwash.. every major modern country has them, even Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_ballistic_missile

 

They're no more complicated than any other ballistic munitions system. If you want us to rp out in detail the creation of these.. then we need to do the same for every major capitol ship, every icbm we build, every mrls system we deploy, every sky guard.. etc.. etc.. because there are systems in common use of comparable complexity. You just don't want your ships to get sunk because people were ready to be protected from them.

 

Every tomahawk would have to be rp'd out. Every amraam build.. I'm just saying.. the tech is common in 2014.

 

This is incredibly wrong and demonstrates a lack of understanding.  

 

Tomahawk is a land attack system designed to hit a fixed target, using a sometimes GPS assisted but onboard intertial guidance system.

 

The DF-21-D from whats been gathered on the open source is a very complex weapon, which uses a very complex system of different space borne sensors to try and identify the location of a carrier while it is moving, which is very hard because 'big ocean, small ship'.  Once you locate the carrier no small task, you need to have the intelligence capacity to identify hat the ship is in fact a military warship (this is also not guaranteed witha detection) and then present that decision to a national command authority to fire the DF-21-D (in most nations it would be at the presidential level, which means more bureaucracy, because its a pretty huge deal if you tear apart a super tanker).  

 

Now during all this that ship is moving a lot of which ways, and it will detect when the sats could possibly see it, which means you have to narrow that envelope to make a decision to much shorter than one can just 'stand up'.  

 

Once this is achieved you've got to launch a multi-stage missile, the final stage of which has to have a really complex guidance system encapsulated in a physics shattering hypersonic glide system, and be able to hit a moving target (faster you're moving, harder it is to do course correction to engage the moving target).

 

Tomahawk and DF-21-D are not the same.

 

It should also be noted that the Tomahawk had 20 years of tweaking in combat.  If the fairly proven stuff of like radar on an Iowa can't work exactly as intended.  The DF-21-D which has never been tested, nor has any other ASBM ever been put into use, is way way way out there as far as reliability.  (also it can't shoot stuff close in)

Edited August 3, 2014 by Triyun

[Maelstrom Vortex]

One word can locate a carrier and any other surface ship: Radar. Most cap ships stand at least 200 feet above the waves.

 

Complex missiles are old hat to the United States, but it's about the only power that can do it. Eh.. just discovered China has maneuverable MIRVS too.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-df-3a-mirv-multiple-us-targets-one-missle-2012-12

 

A whole list of current variants and their roles:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuverable_reentry_vehicle

 

And oh look! The Pershing has a radar built into its nose! *ponders harm variant*

Edited August 3, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[The Zigur]

I'd advise building a digitized Over The Horizon Radar Network (like the Australian JORN) to locate distant carriers, but that alone is not necessarily enough to guide a ballistic missile to a moving target... you may need closer more accurate assets to finish the job.

 

The purpose of those anti-ship ballistic missiles is not necessarily to actually ever use them, it is to force warships and the carriers that support them from coming within operational range of shore... i.e. blockade deterrence. This is why Zoot freaked out and had the GM's wipe my nation when I revealed my fleet in the Crimea... his ships were easy prey when on blockade duty near Greece.

 

With carriers (and their task groups) located more distantly at sea it is easier to pick off aircraft deployed offensively against shore defenses and shipping.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Tywin Lannister

[Triyun]

One word can locate a carrier and any other surface ship: Radar. Most cap ships stand at least 200 feet above the waves.

 

Complex missiles are old hat to the United States, but it's about the only power that can do it. Eh.. just discovered China has maneuverable MIRVS too.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-df-3a-mirv-multiple-us-targets-one-missle-2012-12

 

A whole list of current variants and their roles:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuverable_reentry_vehicle

 

And oh look! The Pershing has a radar built into its nose! *ponders harm variant*

 

Being able to know the rough location of ships is not the same as knowing what ship is what, nor can those things be translated into targets.  Every ballistic missile ever fielded by any country everywhere except the DF-21-D was not built to hit moving objects.  

 

I'm not sure the relevance of the Pershing or the MIRV simply because neither can hit a moving target (unless of course you catch something in the blast radius, which doesn't work with a conventional missile).  

 

The issue with the DF-21-D is that carriers are moving, and unless you're going to shoot up every super tanker and cargo ship in the ocean, just seeing the things on radar isn't enough.  Considering the DF-21 is extremely expensive and procurement is in the dozens at most range that's not only politically costly, its outright implausible and impractical.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I guess until we get better missiles in rl this idea can be shelved.. something like the DF-21-D with its own on board guidance like the Pershing has. Then it may actually stand a chance, but we can't mix and match systems so that won't work for cnrp 2 except as an optional recognition weapon.

 

Besides, there are more effective strategies for fleet destruction. As you said, high cost when there are equally effective systems capable of the same task. I still believe one could be built. Just that it hasn't been because no one wishes to because of expense, and cheaper alternatives.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Captain Enema]

You guys have managed to kick community rp right in the nuts with all this dickering about with the odds and ends of meaningless crap.

 

Good job GMs, well done.

 

losers.